ST Do you think The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi should have had a bigger time gap in-between them?

The end of S2 and what was revealed in BTS on that episode sealed it.

The ST is Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense.

 

@2Cleva, what was revealed in BTS that sealed it? Is this something that was on Disney Plus? I don’t have Disney Plus, and have no intention of getting it. Can you share?

 

Its very good and is clearly signally a reset of SW. Here are the opening words of the document:

Other notes:

• Favreau/Filoni planned Luke at end of S2 from start. Formally asked Mark before 1st ep aired in 2019 (2 years after TLJ). This has been a long play.
• Luke's return was the biggest LFL secret for years. The lengths they went through to keep it quiet were immense. LFL had fake shoots, fake stories and admit to searching web daily looking for leaks.
• Peyton Reed was very revealing on this. - "We're bringing the guy back?" "I went from being thrilled to understanding the weight of this character... there was a real responsibility in the storytelling to have it feel organic to the Mandalorian".
• At one point Reed talks about that one has to realize the people on the show don't know who Luke is and what he's done and "they wouldn't be like 'That's Luke Skywalker he blew up the Death Stars' - that's not where they are coming from". He went on more than that - I LOL'd.
• Long segments explaining the technology they used with Mark and made it clear without saying it - we're going to be seeing A LOT more of OT characters in their primes - not their current age. Luke is a given but its probably going to be the whole gang.
• Favreau, even with his Luke idea, runs his ideas by Filoni. He's the SW guru - as others have stated. All story points are going through them.

The BTS has supported everything I thought I was seeing with how LFL was handling SW and what it means going forward. These people get it - unlike those who did the ST. Definitely explains why Filoni got the promotion to Creative Director.

Anyone hoping for non-connected SW stories are going to be disappointed. Obi-Wan was already changed to fit and the rest will too. Filoni/Favreau are too good of storytellers with too much SW content already to try to make things fit the ST mess. They'll mine those characters just like they are doing the EU.

I've renewed my fandom and am in on this approach. Its provided the best SW content since the OT. I treat the ST like the "What if" like it belongs.

 

That's partially why I feel like those who've long loved SW but didn't like the ST should not give up on the whole thing. It's not just about keeping what you already liked (for example, just the OT), but also giving other things a chance. Many who were disappointed with the ST (and specifically Luke in it) will not be at all disappointed with Luke in The Mandalorian.

 

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I did get to see the ending of The Mandalorian because of generous, thoughtful people here, and I agree that the ending was great. Unfortunately, as you said, the stories are all connected, so even though that Luke scene was great, and even though other earlier depictions of Luke may be great, the whole thing eventually gets to the terrible mess that is the ST, especially TLJ, which I consider to be the film that destroyed Star Wars. Luke still will end up stupidly going into his nephew’s room to read his mind without permission; he still runs away like a coward to hide and have a pity party for six years. He still ends up dying for no reason except that RJ wanted to be the one who killed him. He still ends up with no Jedi order and never successfully trains anyone. He still dies fairly young and alone; he will still be a total failure and a loser, and leave no Jedi legacy and no offspring. Palpatine still ends up the winner by causing the destruction of the Skywalker family while leaving his own offspring in Rey, who ends up with everything.

So, even though there might be some good stories of Luke, leia, and Han in their younger years, what’s the point of watching them when we know it all ends up terrible anyway?

@EHT, see my comments above. Why should I waste time watching positive stories of the OT when they are young, when it doesn’t matter because their horrible ending “ stories” are so awful and can’t be changed?

 

Only if they continue to separate from the ST mess. That BTS was clearly a 180 away from so many things the ST championed. If the try to backdoor in it they will see the same rejection. Jeopardy learned the hard way.

There is a clear overarching story in every SW project that the ST didn't get.

1 - you're welcome.
2 - I've long felt F&F reject the ST for many of the same reasons fans do - the BTS supports it completely.
3 - I do not see F&F taking Luke's story how it did or embracing anything of the ST. It goes against everything they have said about SW. It frankly doesn't fit and F&F aren't changing their approach to SW to fit it. S1 BTS of Mando hinted that to me. Favreau spelled it out to begin this ep.

I recently watched all of the TCW finally. No way Filoni takes the story even to where TFA did. There are now over 100 hours of SW content from Filoni (Clone Wars, Rebels, Mandalorian, Bad Batch - and all his engagement on future stories. Some going to be mad with the ST is wiped away but I won't be one of them.

 

I wouldn’t be mad if the ST is wiped away either! I would be ecstatic! However, didn’t you say that anyone hoping for non- connected Star Wars stories was going to be disappointed? So how can the ST be wiped away when it is already part of the Star Wars “ story”? I always put that into quotes because I didn’t see much of a story in the ST.

 

Definitely deserves a "story" because there isn't a connected on in ST.

The How is a narrative tool. We can guess but its done many ways in movies. MCU using the multiverse. My guess is World Between Worlds. As for why - that's pretty clear with each BTS hearing F&F talk SW.

F&F are operating as story tellers first. They are clearly very protective of their story. Can't see them bending what they do to fit the mess of the ST, nor have TPTB forcing it when there is no money in it.

 

That sounds good to me! I hope you are right!!!

 

I don't like the ST either, but I'm willing to give other new things a chance (like Rogue One and The Mandalorian). Everyone has to decide for themselves how to reconcile these things into canon. At any rate, I was just making a suggestion for something that some might enjoy. If that doesn't apply, so be it.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. Thanks for trying. Right now, I am still too angry with Disney for what their SW films did to the SW films and characters that I loved, to reward the company by paying for their Disney Plus service. Unless they can somehow retcon Luke and change him from being a total failure who never trained anyone to be a full and useful Jedi, and as the one who “ created Kylo”; and can retcon the OT films from being pointless and unnecessary, I really am not interested in seeing an earlier heroic adventure story with Luke or the other OT characters. It’s sort of like stories of Luke’s Jedi students. Why should I watch or read about them and get invested in them, when I know that they will all die or go bad before they ever become full Jedi? They have no future, so what is the point?

The ST, and especially TLJ, simply ruined SW for me. Unfortunately, I can’t enjoy even good stories of the characters that take place in the past when I know about their lousy futures. It’s why I can’t even watch the OT films anymore, sadly. I wish I could, but, at least right now, I can’t. I can’t turn my brain off and pretend that the ST never happened.

 

I feel this. But what I would say is that done correctly, these stories that fill the gap between that moment Luke takes Grogu and the beginning of TFA have the ability to drastically change the context of the ST as we know it today. If we continue to let Disney know how we feel, they might just pull it off. As others have eloquently put it, it sure seems like they understand what fans want...and what fans don't want. There will always be loud voices on all sides, but I have faith Disney hears them all, and from all indications, based on that BTS, they've made themselves pretty clear. By the time the story reaches TFA, they can completely retroactively change the story as we know it. Luke will always be a grumpy critic of the Jedi in TLJ, but the reasons for this might be much better than they are now. If done right, it could even become logical someday.

 

This is exactly how I felt after TLJ. But I had already saw Rebels - my first Filoni show and it was SW done right (Kanan death was more powerful than Luke's) so I was curious enough to watch Mandalorian. Despite my disappointment in ST, Mandalorian has been best live-action SW since OT (and not close imo). Which prompted me to finally watch TCW. After finishing it and caught up on Bad Batch - the care Filoni takes with SW fans is what fans who didn't like the ST wanted.

Now that they are bringing Luke and he's training Grogu (the character who essentially saved SW) - there are 2 clear motivations why F&F won't work into the ST.

1 - it doesn't work with their story or the themes of SW they embrace.
2 - ST is bad for business and merchandise sales been dead. Grogu turned that around and then Mandalorian merch took off.

But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I get not trusting LFL unless they are clear. I have doubts they will be clear until they do it to protect the story.

But that's how I look at - to each their own. The BTS allowed me to close the door on the ST when the new caretakers of SW clearly reject it.

 

It works fine because its set 5 years after ROTJ. meaning there is what? 25 years left of a time frame? anything can happen in that time. personally i think Grogu will end up back with Mando in The Mandalorian series 3.

Thats the thing, they can do whatever they want within at least 20 years of time frame. you have Luke do whatever. but in the end yeah at a certain point things need to curve around to the ST. to assume anything they do with Luke in Mando gets in the way of that would be wrong.

Its like Luke could get with Mara jade in the next 3 years after Mando. people would say oh this is inconsistent to the ST. but no its not. it just has to go a certain way before the ST starts a decade later.

 

Wow this all is interesting! I don't usually go for BTS documentaries as I don't have much "me" time anymore, but I think I need to give this one a watch!

Agreed RE: the highlighted. 25 years is an entire childhood, solidly into adulthood! A child's entire life growing up. A lot can indeed happen in multiple decades-whether connected to the ST or not. And that kind of excites me, as to where they can go.

Personally I'd like to see Luke hunting down Ochi of Bestoon with Lando, which could play into the ST just fine-as it could include Rey's parents, more about the Sith Eternal, and perhaps even a young Rey around the days she's being brought to Jakku. Maybe even possible to learn a bit more about Snoke. We could see Luke's Jedi temple, perhaps even Ben Solo as a young boy! I didn't hate the ST, I "mildly enjoy" it, for the most part. But IMO seeing things like this (perhaps either in series or even spinoff form) could really help enrich the ST.

 

Sorry-DP

 

On the one hand, my knee-jerk instinct is to say yes because that's simply how it was done for every other film in the saga- including between 8 and 9. On the other hand tradition alone is not necessarily a good reason to do things and it's hard to imagine justifying a gap narratively when TFA basically ended in the middle of a scene.

Perhaps the gap between 8 and 9 should have been increased instead, from one year to several. That gives more time for Rey's Jedi training and more time for EU stuff to cover the war with the First Order.

 

To answer this thread's title question, absolutely 100% yes.

One of TFA's biggest weaknesses was world-building (I don't like the term but I think everyone more or less knows what it means). One of the most intuitive and seamless ways to create nuanced world-building in fantasy fiction is to show familiar subjects subtly changed over time. There are plenty of other reasons why a bigger time-skip was needed, but I think that's the most important one.

 

I call it the Saturday Trilogy (ST) because the whole thing feels like it took place on a Saturday afternoon.

 

I honestly don't think there could have been a time gap because of how The Force Awakens ended. The Last Jedi needed to pick up where The Force Awakens left off. As @Saturn830 pointed out, The Force Awakens ended in the middle of a scene. If we didn't see how Luke reacted to Rey being there and handing him the lightsaber, then it would feel like something was missing. I think a compromise would have been having a time gap during The Last Jedi, like after Luke agrees to teach Rey and the Resistance escaped D'qar.

I do feel like the time gap between 8 and 9 should have been longer as well.

 

There's no reason why TLJ had to start at the exact moment where TFA left off.

TLJ could have started weeks-months later. Opens with the FO approaching the Resistance base, with a lien or two about how they finally tracked them down. "Our informant on Canto was right" We then get a little battle. When we meet Rey back on Ahch-to, you could do something like ... it's night. Rey sits with Chewie at a campfire. She's holding the saber and looking at it. She places it back in her bag. She's frustrated that Luke hasn't spoken a word to her yet, despite trying to talk to him. Her com-link goes off, with a holo-message from Leia telling her that the FO has finally discovered where their base is, and they need Luke asap. This spurs Rey further. She tags along Luke on his daily routine and tries to show him the message.

Doing this would allow more off-screen character growth. Rey could have been practicing on her own, thinking about Finn, Kylo, whatever the entire time. Allowing her to begin changing her mind about Kylo even now that there's some distance to those TFA events. Her entire heroes journey isn't days in length, but some indiscriminate period of time.

 

TLJ desperately needed a time jump if RJ was intent on making Reylo happen. I mean, I don't think I could ever buy it regardless, but a time jump woud at least show an effort being put by RJ towards considering Rey's headspace. You show months of Luke rejecting Rey. You show months of Kylo talking to Rey (and actually showing some sympathetic traits instead of always coming across as a sociopath like he does during their interactions in TLJ). Then, maybe it becomes more believable that, if nothing else, Rey might have Stockholm Syndrom. You certainly need more than, what was it, 2 scenes maybe? before Rey is holding hand romantically while confiding in Kylo, applying makeup, and shipping herself to him in a gift box.