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PT Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Sep 7, 2019.

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Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

  1. Yes

    94 vote(s)
    83.9%
  2. No

    18 vote(s)
    16.1%
  1. DarthVist

    DarthVist Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Midi-chlorians were intelligent microscopic life forms that lived symbiotically inside the cells of all living things. When present in sufficient numbers, they could allow their host to detect the pervasive energy field known as the Force.

    So Midi-chlorians and the Force are two different things, and Midi-chlorians are not the Force as many fans think they are for some reason. So I don't see why the Midi-chlorians are hated really badly.
     
  2. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    I think the whole outrage and hate about the midis is totally out of place and due to missunderstandig their concept! Mostly its said that those midis "replace" the mystic engery field explained in Ep IV by Ben when in fact they only are the "organ" to feel and use the force. They are the eyes, the skin, the sense of smell for the force. No more, no less.

    I always found it odd that they got so much hate when in my opinion they only made it clear why certain beeings are special and chosen to use the force and others are not.
     
  3. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Absolutely. I think the idea that "Midichlorians removes the mystery and magic of the Force" is exaggerated. It doesnt remove (mostly) it. Force still is very mysterious thing and magic of it still there.
    Midichlorians have certain purpose - to establish some rules and laws just like every other big story. Its the same thing as Silmarillion and LotR. Silmarillion doesnt make magic and magical races less magical.
    It allows theorycrafting which in itself is something interesting and beefy to talk about.
     
  4. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    To be fair, I can get the outrage. For the longest time, everyone thought the Force was this obscure, mystical entity that only a selected few people had. There was almost something religious about it (“Your sad devotion to that ancient religion...”; “You, my friend, are all that’s left of that religion.”; “It’s all just hokey religion nonsense.”)

    Tarkin, Han, and Commander Stupid (don’t really know his name right now) all made it clear that they believed that the Force was some kind of ancient religious cult thing. This was backed up by the next two movies, then the EU novels. It was basically the closest thing they got to a god, as illustrated when Han said that he didn’t believe that there was some all-powerful, unseen entity “controlling everything.”

    Then here comes The Phantom Menace wherein Qui-Gon basically says the Force is basically tiny microscopic things living in our bloodstream and, if we take what Obi-Wan said about Anakin’s power level (IT’S OVER NINE-THOUSAAAAAAAND!!! *crushes midichlorian count meter*) then I can see why some would be pissed. The Force was basically demoted to cells and Dragonball Z-like power levels where the higher your power, the stronger you are.

    That’s my thinking on this anyways. :D

    And no, I’m not sorry for the lame DBZ meme. :p
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  5. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I don't like the concept. We never heard them mentioned in the OT, and yet we "got" what the Force was supposed to be. Some things don't really need over-elaborating, and a less prescriptive description, I feel, allows the viewer or reader greater flexibility to fill in the gaps with his imagination.

    That's just my thoughts on it.
     
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  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host - 11X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    At least part of the problem is the idea that they generate the Force, rather than simply being the intermediary between the Force and the Jedi. Even recent books like How Not To Get Eaten By Ewoks, seem to be under this misapprehension.
     
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  7. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Actually according to the early EU and what GL said at the time of the production of the OT, everybody could learn to use the force.

    That changed later, around the time when "Dark Empire" and KJA's book trilogy was released but before the SE and the prequels iirc.

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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  8. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    The midi-chlorian concept never contradicted my interpretation of the Force in the OT, it merely added detail. So yeah, the big fuss wasn't for me.
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I don't think LotR and the Silmarillion is all that relevant here. The Sil offers more background of the history of Middle-Earth, past events, what happened and where. The past histories of some characters in LotR.
    It did not try to explain the exact mechanism of how the One Ring made some people invisible but others not. Or how Hobbits in general are resistant to the lure of the One Ring due to X amount of microbes in their blood.

    In my experience there is always a risk of over-explaining something or explaining something that does not need to be explained.
    Star Trek falls into this trap at times when they try to use real science to explain their tech.
    But often they mangle the science so the explanation makes no sense.
    Or they create other problems when they say "Because of X we can do Y." not realizing that other times X was there but they could not do Y so the question then becomes why.

    To me, having the Jedi be selected just due to a blood test makes the selection a bit too "clinical" and just a numbers game. "If you have X amount of midis then you can become a Jedi. If you have Y amount then you can't."
    I always saw the Jedi selecting possible candidates based on who they were as people, not just their genes.
    That being a good Jedi was about who you were, not what your genetic make up was.

    With a midi count deciding who gets to be a jedi or not then the situation becomes a bit like the film Gattaca. Where genetic selection of sperms and eggs have become common and fair number of jobs are now only for the "genetic elite". Does not matter who they are as a person, how motivated they are, all that matters is their genes and a job interview is simply about giving a urine sample. If you have the right genes, you get the job. If not, sorry.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Thats just not what he says:



    He says they live in the cells and tell them the will of the force. That is exactly what he says. Nowhere in the movie it's said that they create the force or are the force itself. Its said that you can use the force with their help. Simple as that. Its like seeing your enviroment with your eyes or hearing birds tweeting with your ears.
     
  11. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    :eek:

    Wow. So the Sequel Trilogy wasn't that far off after all.
     
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  12. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Yeah, i guess. Maybe they retconned it back to this, which i would really like.

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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    There's no indication that ever changed. If everyone has midi-chlorians, that means everyone can use the Force. But that doesn't mean everyone can learn to use the Force equally well. That much was clear early on, given the original films' focus on the power of the Skywalker bloodline.

    You mean the sequel trilogy where only one of the three main characters uses the Force? The same character who is implied to be inherently powerful due to being chosen by the Force in some vague way to combat the new dark side threat?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  14. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    I still think the scene with Finn using the lightsaber in TFA is there for a reason and there is broom boy in TLJ.

    I guess both of this things could be signs that they retconned the issue of force sensitivity.

    Edit: And here's an excerpt from "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi" which sheds some light on the issue:

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3313793

    The following passages are especially relevant:

    "Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

    Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

    Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

    Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

    Marquand: They use it as a technique.

    Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.

    Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?

    Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?"
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  15. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    The concept never bothered me. They were a way people accessed the Force, not the Force itself. And it tied in with the idea that everyone, not just the Jedi, is part of the Force and is linked together through it. Thus, everyone has access to it, to one extent or another. It's just that the Jedi have both the physical means to have greater access (high midichlorian counts) and the will and determination to study and learn how to make use of the power such a connection may grant. Both the physical and spiritual aspects are needed. Just having a high midichlorian count isn't enough if you're too lazy to apply yourself. Well, at least until Rey showed up, I suppose.
    One more thing: I was surprised at the overreaction because it wasn't a new idea. In Jedi Search, the first book of the "Jedi Academy" series, Luke needs to start looking for potential Jedi. And the good guys find a device that can scan people and determine levels of Force-sensitivity. If I remember correctly, it's described as being used by Palpatine to track down hidden or potential Jedi so they could get quickly whacked.
     
  16. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I don't hate it but it definitely took away some of the beauty and mystery of it.
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host - 11X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Or recruited, given how many rather young Force Users were in Palpatine's service in the Legendsverse.
     
  18. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Yes, very much this. The Force can exist as an entity without making it sound like you have a fixed level of power from day one.

    I never got on board with midichlorians. Forget the fact that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda says anything about them to Luke, but to have several living beings decide who gets to do what with the Force feels wrong for Star Wars. The Force can exist as its own entity, a field that “penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.” Obi-Wan’s ANH description of it, followed by Yoda’s in TESB, is all I personally needed and wanted.
     
  19. s_heffley

    s_heffley Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2015
    The idea never bothered me much, though that's easy when I grew up with it, haha. I think it kind of makes more sense as it gives an explanation as to why Luke was the only one who could defeat Vader, but there's probably an ton of arguments you could make there and I understand why this whole thing bothers people.

    One argument I will make, I think I read someone complaining that it takes away the ability for kids to "play Jedi" or whatever, since it turns from "I can be a Jedi if I try hard enough!" to "Oops, I need to have the midichchlorians!" and that's just bulllcrap. Do kids not play kings and queens, princes and princesses just cause it's hereditary? :p I don't know about you but I definitely still played Jedi as a kid ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Yes, I'm perfectly familiar with that conversation. I don't see how midi-chlorians contradict anything Lucas has said here. Especially since he had also made comments before this that indicated that Force talent was genetically influenced (as one might expect, given that the original movies clearly establish this).

    There's no way around this. If the Force is strong in the Skywalker family, that means it must be less strong with other individuals. That implies that a fixed limit must exist based on inherent potential.

    People are just upset that something that was implicit in the originals was made explicit in the prequels. Nothing wrong with that if that's how they feel, but that's what's going on.

    Yeah, I remember Harry Potter was a huge flop with the kids. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  21. Dagobahsystem

    Dagobahsystem Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2015
    The midis are like a scientific attempt to help explain something mystical.
    So in that sense, they don't bother me at all, as there is always room for differing schools of thought and analysis. These evolve naturally over time, so if anything, it adds a layer of realism to the GFFA.

    Right time and right place is the key.
    Just as it is IRL.

    With that in mind, perhaps the more outwardly sophisticated era of the Republic placed more importance on science and learning and keeping vast archives and whatnot.

    By the time the Empire had become fully entrenched and had largely succeded in eradicating every last remnant of the Jedi and the Republic; a more primitive and instinctual approach to learning and spiritual studies had grown more prevalent.
    That's why we get references to antiquated religions and so forth.

    A master teacher like Kenobi would know to tailor his teaching methods and language, as it were, to best help each individual student in their time and place and in a manner best suited to help them succeed.

    With that in mind, I see no incongruity to different explanations, interpretations, or assumptions about the Force that might occur throughout the saga and indeed the ST and EU.
    If anything, these differing view points make the universe even more interesting.
     
  22. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    @The_Phantom_Calamari

    The Force being found in a selective number individuals doesn't necessarily mean that individuals who are strong in the Force can't train and become as powerful in their own right. I'm not saying Han was ever going to be as powerful in the Force as Yoda, but if the decision to implement the Force is a conscious one on the part of certain living things, which was never implied in the OT, it takes away the mysticism and "specialness" (for lack of a better word), but that is just my opinion of course. Luke beating Vader on the Death Star definitely wasn't because of any midichlorians, unless he had a higher count than his father supposedly (why wasn't that mentioned by Yoda or Obi-Wan in the OT?).
     
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I'm not quite sure I understand what you're arguing in parts of this post. But the reason Luke beat Vader on the Death Star is because he tapped into his rage and became more powerful than him. Luke is able to surpass his father in power despite because Darth Vader has suffered grievous injuries and become part machine, which limits his ability to tap into the Force. This is the whole reason the Emperor seeks to replace Vader with Luke. This has always been the case. The introduction of midi-chlorians didn't change anything.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  24. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    At the core, I’m arguing that while the midichlorians made a nice addition for some, the explanation of the OT would have sufficed as well, and preferred by some including myself.
    I just personally don’t like that a Force-user’s potential for growth in their power has a set limit.
    That’s all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  25. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Tthe ST pays Tribut to the Midi-Chlorians when in TLJ Snoke refferes to the powerful Skywalker blood which could Ben become a new Vader. And ist obvious that Rey has a very strong potential with the force. It's shown in TFA and even said in TLJ (by Luke). And still the mystic engery field is there and beautifully explained in Ep VIII again.

    And for the OT not mentioning the Midis: Ben says in Ep IV that when he met Anakin he was suprised about how strong the force was in him. Luke actually says out loud that the force is strong in his Family in Ep VI (powerful Skywalker Blood). That indicates that there must be more to it then only the difference between a force trained and not trained Person.

    Funny enough Lucas had the Midis in his very first sripts for ANH and just developted them further for the Prequels. Part of Reason was the storyline of the Chosen one. The other reason was the fandom asking about why certain People bacame Jedi and others were not.

    I get that some People dont like the additional explaination of how poeple are able to feel and use the force. Still some reactions are blown out of porpotions in my eyes when you consider the minority of role the midis play in Ep I and III.