PT Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

Perhaps. There are many designs/elements of the PT that ARE more fantasy than the OT. That said, there ARE many elements of the PT that feel/play more like Star Trek than anything in the OT. Midichlorians may just be one of them.

Not at all. Yet, I think that midichlorians could have been presented in a way that resonated with audiences....or at least didn't alienate/confuse a large part of the population.

I don't know. While I think there may be something to your theory, I think there are plenty of Star Wars fans that are open to science/magic/god all being the same thing, yet still have a problem with midichlorians. I don't think you had to philosophically disagree with the concept to think is it was clumsily introduced, or less than crucial to the narrative.

Listen, I agree with all of this. I agree that the concept of midichlorians are fascinating. I agree that the concept connects to The Force as was established in the OT. I agree the concept connects to our real world, how life works, the concept of Qi, science, and Campbell's philosophy, etc.

That said, this doesn't change the fact that the introduction of midichlorians clearly didn't connect with audiences like the concept of The Force, and didn't necessarily serve the narrative in a meaningful way either. Surely you see this.

In the OT, the introduction of the Force took a concept and made it immediately relatable/understandable to the entire audience regardless of their life experience, backgrounds, nor their beliefs in religion, science, or philosophy. People got it was more than just "space magic." It was a universal concept that galvanized audiences and made Star Wars more than just space opera.

This simply is NOT the case with the introduction of midichlorians.

Now, you might say: "Well, Lucas was ahead of his time. People just didn't get it. "

That's largely George Lucas's fault. He is welcome to (and often does) introduce/integrate a myriad of big ideas, concepts, analogies, and themes into his movies (which are largely made for the masses). Yet, in doing so, he usually makes sure that:

1. The ideas=/concept lands/resonates in a meaningful way for audiences. This would seem especially important when the target audience is children.

As I have said, midichlorians simply didn't do this. The introduction of midichlorians was confusing to a large part of the audience and clearly alienating to a portion of the SW fans. That suggests a failure of execution and communication.

2. The idea/concept serves as fuel for the narrative in an organic way.

As has been said by many on this very thread, one could do away with the exposition on midichlorians and it wouldn't shift the overall narrative of Episode 1 very much. Simply put, it's not that integral to the plot. Yet, we pause to spend crucial moments of screen time learning about it. These moments may not have felt like "school" but they certainly felt a bit like an episode of The Young Indy Chronicles.

Bottom Line: I agree with you on the ties to history, philosophy, science, that midichlorians share with The Force and with the other real world applications and analogies.

That said, unlike with the concept of The Force, Lucas failed to communicate the concept of midichlorians in an effective/understandable manner to audiences.

 

It's his "fault" for being ahead of his time? I don't think that's how being ahead of your time works.

I guess it was Van Gogh's fault too. He probably should have tried something different to appeal to people while he was still alive, eh? We'd all be much better off for it, I'm sure.

 

@jaimestarr - your last few paragraphs make sense. The MCs didn’t bother me but could have been introduced a little better. Not a peep about them or the concept of them in the OT and those films came first, well, kind of. The force had been established and as you said, every one "got it" and the force was relatable. So the MCs just had that "out of nowhere" feeling in TPM when QuiGon brought them up. I still don’t mind the idea having a physical characteristic tying people to force power potential. It’s actually cool. But it need to be in the OT somewhere to help it’s acceptance.

I do have a question: what determined who got an MC test? Was it galaxy wide at birth? At five years old? Was it a mandate that all citizens had to follow and have their kids tested?

 

1. Nope, it's not George Lucas's fault that he's ahead of his time. Yet, he is the creator of the most popular movie franchise of all time. Star Wars appeals to all ages, and is primarily aimed at the young. Midichlorians is definitely an instance in which Lucas missed when trying to communicate and relay a new/big idea to the masses. It doesn't happen with him very often, but he certainly missed the mark here regardless of how much you and I like/understand the idea.

2. Van Gogh was not famous/popular in his time and often lived in poverty. So, yes, he likely would have benefitted from reaching the masses with his art in a manner similar to George Lucas.

 

He really couldn't have explained midi-chlorians in a simpler way. They create life, they live inside all living cells, they tell us the will of the Force and if we quiet our minds, we can hear them.
This is all clearly communicated and I honestly think anyone who pays attention understands it.
Those who don't pay attention just miss out on some good world-building. No big deal.

 

That’s reasonable. I do think having MCs showing up at some stage in the OT would have made sense though. Especially in TESB where Yoda really breaks down the force during Luke’s training. We get more details about the force in TESB than really anywhere else so to me that was the logical place to introduce MCs.

 

I guess I see your point, but at the same time, TESB needed to put its emphasis on Luke letting go of disbelief and understanding the Force itself on a deeper level; that we are luminous beings, everything is interconnected, anything is possible and all that.
The midi-chlorians do have their role to play in that, but bringing them up would likely have distracted the viewers from what the story needed to be about at that point. They could absolutely have been introduced in TESB and fit right in, though, there I agree.

I, for my part, assume Luke was told about them off screen. Perhaps by Yoda/Obi-Wan during TESB, perhaps by Obi-Wan after ANH. It seems like such basic Jedi knowledge that it should be among the first theoretical lessons they get.

 

Yeah - that works.

 

Well, unfortunately, we can't build a time machine and force Van Gogh to stop making great art. If only....

 

R

Right. Because that’s what I was getting at. Thanks for the chat.

 

100%

I love the idea of a microbiotic world. It's so unique and unlike anything we've seen in a popular movie franchise. It also perfectly explains why people have stronger connections to the Force, and why Anakin in particular (and through him, his family) are so significant. It's the glue that binds the Saga together.

 

Even back in 1999, I never understood the hate for Midiclorians. I had no problem with it, because Lucas was telling his story now in 1-6 order, so he had to put a value on Anakin for the first time viewer. Anakin has the highest Midiclorian count (even higher then Yoda's) in Episode 1, so that is a big clue that this guy is Michael Jordan. Of course anyone who watched 4-6 first, doesn't need that type of information, but Lucas wasn't telling the story that way anymore.

 

I'll be honest. I have utterly no idea what you were getting at. Most likely because of my poor reading comprehension or limited mental capacity.

 

Why was it necessary to put a value on Anakin in ep I?
Luke did not get a number in the OT?
What we knew of Anakin in the OT was "Powerful Jedi" and "Amazed how strong the Force was with him."
So he was strong in the Force but nothing said that he was "Most powerful Jedi ever!"

If in TPM, he was just unusually strong and Qui-Gon wanted to train him because of that, why would that be wrong?

In TPM we hear that Anakin can race pods, which normally is impossible for humans.
So he can do something that ordinary humans can not.
I would say that is enough to establish that he is strong in the Force.

If you need more, instead of Telling, which is what the midi number is doing, Show it instead.
Have Qui-Gon witness Anakin in Watto's shop and a shelf falls on him. Despite not seeing it, Anakin is able to anticipate it and move aside and even block one object that would have hit him with the Force. And afterwards Anakin is exhausted but it would show that even untrained, he can do minor Jedi things.

I found both the midis and the prophecy not very interesting. Neither adds all that much, the midis over-explains something that did not need it and the prophecy is underused and the films doesn't do much with it. It is there to make Anakin super special and is Telling, not Showing.
If Anakin is super-powerful, show him doing something that other Jedi can't.

The Matrix film showed Neo doing things the other humans could not.

And with the midis, other discussions/questions have showed up, not all from Lucasfilms.

Ex, "Loss of body-parts" = "Loss of midis" = "Loss of Force potential"
That if a Jedi has an arm cut off, then those midis are gone and the Jedi is made weaker.
Sort of implying that an amputee Jedi is less of a Jedi.
With Anakin, I have seen stuff that after RotS, he was 85 % of Palpatine due to his lost body parts.

Other questions that pop up is, what number matters? The conc/cell or the total number?
If the latter, then the bigger you are, the higher the number and the greater your potential.
Not really fitting with Yoda's "Judge me by my size do you?"
If the former, why can all the midis in one cell work together but not all the midis in the entire body?

The implication is also that below a certain number, you can't become a Jedi. So it does not matter who you are as a person, the only thing that matters is your blood. Sort of "The Divine Blood of Kings".
To me, it is also seems a very clinical way to select potential Jedi. Just a number on a test, above pass, below fail.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You're probably just going to be told, "It doesn't matter".

 

Why not? It shows Qui-Gon to have a measurement and match it to something else.

 

That is not much of an answer.
If a some carpenter came to your house and told you "It is necessary to drill some holes in the roof."
And you asked "Why?" and their response is "Why not, gives you some holes in the roof."
Would you accept that answer?

Luke never got a measurement and people had no problem accepting him as a Jedi to be.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I think drilling holes can be a detriment to the integrity of a roof. I don't think that about talking about midichlorians. I think that's more like the color you paint the door knob or something like that. I think it allows for a measurement, and, I think, to me, shows a structured reasoning for some characters and plays into the plot of ROTS, with the manipulation of Anakin and Palpatine using the idea of influencing the midichlorians. Whether or not it's liked by some is another thing. I'm fairly chill on it.

 

@Samuel Vimes I typed this a page back...

Along with a lot of other things, the PT seems like it exists in a far more futuristic setting than the OT does.

 

Midichlorians aren't the force, I think, as said in the movies. I think the force in the movies isn't explained and such. How the jedi can use it, I think, moreso, is maybe what the movie details.

 

I never said it was.

 

If that's not what you mean when you said:

I'm not sure what you're saying. You say you never got the feeling they knew what the force was. I think the midichlorians and doing a blood test to measure them don't change that.

 

Okay, take any human trait. Blonde hair, long legs, good at sports, etc. Humans have understood, for a long time, that these traits can be passed to offspring, without fully understand how. People used to refer to "the blood" as the means of passing traits down to children. Then, as genetics began to be studied, we formed a much better idea of how we passed down traits. Yet, even in 2021, we still don't fully understand how DNA, genetic material, etc works. We know way more than we did even a few decades ago, but we still haven't cracked all the mysteries yet.

My point with bringing up genetics is that Luke mentions in ROTJ that the force is strong in his family. This means that the people in this galaxy have a basic understanding of how traits can be passed down genetically. THAT'S the limit of the scientific understanding of how a person can be in tune with the force. Some people have access to the force... some don't... some are incredibly strong (Anakin and his offspring) and so on.

But then, in the PT, which is supposed to decades before the OT, the Jedi paradoxically have an even deeper understanding of how the force operates than they will in their future. Imagine if I wrote a movie based in 2000 and mention genetics, and then made a prequel based in 1970 where they had the advanced knowledge of 2021. That wouldn't seem off to you?

 

I'm not sure if I agree that one contradicts the other. I don't know if I necessarily agree that the jedi have an understanding of how the force operates based on them knowing about midichlorians. Even the prequels I think barely reference the midichlorians much. I think midichlorians more function as a source of measurement of potential, not necessarily, to me, a showcase of the development of that potential.

 

Well, everything in a movie is there to give information to the audience. If you establish three full films where the force is treated as basically space magic and then you make a fourth film based three decades prior to the first three and you suddenly have people doing blood tests and measuring bacteria levels, that puts a question in peoples minds. Why were all these characters speaking of the force in one context when they (retroactively) should have been speaking about in an entirely different way. Midichlorians are how Jedi find new Jedi hopefuls. Yoda tells Luke he needs to PASS ON what he has learned by the time of ROTJ. And yet, Luke is never instructed how best to do that. It makes no sense.

It seems like Lucas was trying to deepen the lore, but went about it in the wrong way.