PT Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

I don't think one way necessarily contradicts another. I don't think not telling Luke about that necessarily effects much. I think Qui-Gon works out Anakin's potential without the testing. I think he does it after to solidify his suspicions. Luke wouldn't necessarily have to, similarly, to find them. Blood testing won't help Luke find them in the galaxy. He'd have to test one by one to do that.

In the OT, there was never a situation, where blood testing or midichlorian talk was necessary. Nobody talks about how the jedi have the force. Luke doesn't need testing, as his potential is already known and/or suspected, by Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

It seems like there was never a point where ANY OF THIS needed to be brought up. It seems like the story could progress just fine from 1 thru 6 without bringing up midichlorians, or virgin births, or chosen one prophecies, or bringing balance to the force.

 

I don't really agree. I think, in the grand scheme of the PT, the concept of the midichlorians comes back with Palpatine telling Anakin about manipulating the midichlorians using the dark side and all.

 

"He could even use the dark side to create life itself."

There, no need for them.

 

I don't really agree. I think manipulating the midichlorians make more sense and is more buyable as a concept, to me.

 

Hey, if that's where you draw the line at plausibility, all the power to you.

I have a hard time picturing you watching ROTS, hearing that a Sith Lord caused cells to start to reproduce, and then actually raising an eyebrow just because there was no bacterial middleman though.

I can't picture anyone sitting in the audience in 2005, hearing that Plagueis story and thinking, "Could the force really do that? Maybe if mitochondria were involved, but definitely not without."

 

This has always been the case. From the 1975 third draft for the original Star Wars:

LUKE
But you’re still a powerful Jedi. You don’t need my help.

BEN
A Jedi’s power is measured by the amount of the Force that is stored within him, and I have little of the Force left in me.

In this draft, Ben Kenobi was the cyborg. He laments that he can't accomplish his mission without Luke's help because he is too old and he's "lost too much" of his body:

LUKE
But the Sith Lords are involved! Whatever information this R-2 unit is carrying, it must be awfully important. They’re probably looking for him… I’m no match for the Sith. This is a Jedi’s work. This is your responsibility!

BEN
Not any more!

The old man suddenly ignites in a rage and swings his left forearm down across the solid metal table with a mighty blow. His arm cracks in two, spewing forth wires and electronic components.

BEN
I’m not the same. I’m too old. I’ve lost too much. You don’t seem to realize I’ve become an outlaw, to be hunted… and killed.

Obviously, this idea was transferred to Vader when he became the cyborg. Now, just as the cyborg Ben needed Luke's help because of his waning power, the cyborg Vader needs Luke's help to overthrow the Emperor. Which is exactly the state of affairs as described by Lucas in prequel-era interviews.

Becoming a cyborg has always been equated with being less of a life-form:

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be
done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

And here is the earlier version of the line from the 1981 rough draft for ROTJ, again showing the intended link between Vader's nature as a cyborg and his reduced strength in the Force, just as with the cyborg version of Ben Kenobi:

THE EMPEROR
You are weak, more machine than man. You should be thankful we don’t destroy you along with your troublesome offspring.

Vader collapses on the floor and the Emperor lowers his hand.

THE EMPEROR (continued) Your son has become stronger with the Force than you. It is as we have foreseen, only we can destroy him now.

And then from the revised rough draft:

JERJERROD
The Emperor will succeed, where you have failed. You are weak, Lord Vader, more machine than man.

Obviously, if you are less of a life-form, you are going to have less of the Force inside of you. You could just as well have asked back then why this should have diminished Vader, given that Vader's head and torso probably have just as much mass as Yoda's body. Then, just as now, you would have been missing the point.

 

So what is the point? None of this is from films. Is this canon? Clearly Vader (and Maul) are both shown to be incredibly powerful in The Force, despite being half the men they used to be.

 

I don't mind that the midichlorians were introduced, and I'm fine with that explanation as a sort of knowledge the Jedi order gained thru their study of the force over the centuries. I've always had an appreciation for understanding the inner workings of things in the world. However, (and I think all the back and forth above on these pages here kind of reinforce this) I would've preferred they leave the concept out-if only to avoid confusion.

 

Almost everything of what you just posted is not IN any of the OT films. The only thing that is partly in the film is the bit about Vader being more machine than man, twisted and evil. Note that Obi-Wan never says he is weaker. And Vader, when he met Obi-Wan in ANH did not present himself as weaker, he instead mocks Obi-Wan for being weak and old.
So how am I missing the point if almost all of the point is missing from the films?

You know what is IN the films? Luke loosing a hand in ESB and in RotJ both Vader and Palpatine comment that he is stronger, more powerful.

You know what else is in the films?

By your argument, it is totally right to judge someone by their size.
Lost an arm = less size = weaker Jedi.

Yoda also said that we are not "this crude matter" but now the "crude matter" is VERY important in how much power you have.

@dagenspear

But the person I responded to said that it was NECESSARY to have number on Anakin in TPM. One was not needed in the OT but now all of a sudden it was.
So I asked why.

Your response of "Why not" is not an answer.

If someone says, "It is NECESSARY to paint his wall blue" and when asked why, responds with "Why not?" That is an insufficient answer.

Vader was presented as strong and powerful in the OT but never got a number "He is over 9000!!!"
So why exactly did he HAVE to have one now?
Not that you could not do stuff with it but why would it's absence make the film not work?

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter... now strap into this machine so we can measure your crude matter.

 

Why do Jedi have to concentrate with their brains to use the Force? Aren't brains crude matter? Why do you think Yoda has to close his eyes and concentrate when he lifts the X-wing? Why does he have to extend his hand? Is he a hypocrite?

Perhaps this isn't actually the contradiction you think it is? Our true nature is not "crude matter." But of course we are limited by the forms we take on this plane of existence, which very much are crude matter. Otherwise, every Jedi would be a god. But they're not. They're mortals.

It is in the OT films. It's subtextual. I know a lot of people have a hard time with subtext.

Didn't you ever wonder why Ben was "getting too old for this sort of thing"? Because a reduction in physical vitality is associated with a reduction in Force strength. Didn't you ever wonder how Luke managed to so quickly surpass his father, or why the Emperor was so keen on replacing Vader with Luke? Because Vader is a cyborg and he's less powerful as a result.

These are all questions that are easily answered by recognizing the implications of a life-force that is generated and grown in proportion to biological activity. You can't complain just because Lucas came up with an answer to the questions you never bothered to wonder about, and remained consistent with those answers when making new films. That's unfair and doesn't make sense.

 

I think I explained it more in the post you quoted.

I would suggest the OT didn't have a situation where that was a part of the main plot, of why they have those powers, so I don't think it matters in the OT. The PT has a situation where that's talked about it.

I mean, if we're doing this, I could ask:

Why is the force a thing? Why can't it just be superpowers? I think it not being the force wouldn't effect much. Some people can use their powers for evil and it manifests differently because they're evil or something like that.

I think measuring the crude matter doesn't necessarily contradict that idea, the idea that the power they have can be effected it.

I don't really know. But, as is, now, I think, I buy it more.

 

You keep touting subtext and are now are waving it around in a snarky, gatekeeping, fashion.

Gleaning subtext is typically related to thematic elements, not to plot points within the narrative.

Leaving important plot points to the audience to infer from subtext is not usually conducive to effective story telling/communicating what is going on.

So, if in fact a Force users abilities decrease with a reduction in body mass, this should be stated in the narrative....not left up to audience interpretation, or subtext.

Especially when your interpretation of the subtext seems to fly in the face of what Yoda represents/stands for both in the narrative (plot), and thematically (subtext).

​

 

I always appreciated how Midi-chlorians leaned more towards a science fictional concept than a vaguer notion of spirituality. The backlash wasn't something I could relate to. Far from making me question Episode I, it (and the general wave of Episode I hate in general) mostly contributed to me suddenly becoming a bit hesitant to self-describe as a Star Wars fan despite really liking the films.

 

It didn't even occur to me that someone can hate this.

 

This is a topic that can be discussed endlessly, I think, because on some level it is a matter of taste, and preference, versus arguing over facts or canon or the like.

One challenge the Prequels faced was that during the OT and after, a lot of fans had ideas about elements of the SW universe that weren't completely, or even marginally, fleshed out. And to be clear, in my opinion, that was true for a LOT of people, even people who were miles from being hard core fans, or writing fan fiction, or really thinking things through in great specificity. To take one aspect of that, I remember hearing, a LOT, when the Prequels came out, that the Jedi were way weirder than people thought they would be. I heard that voiced approvingly, disapprovingly, and neutrally, from different people. I was kinda one of those people too, although I had no problem with the "stoic" Jedi. And the thing is, I bet a lot of people saying that hadn't sat down and sketched out a big elaborate theory of how the Jedi were trained or organized, etc.

To cut to the chase, as mentioned above by many others, there is "something" about the whole midichlorian thing that for many makes affinity with The Force seem a lot less mystical and lot more mechanistic. That might be fine if it was just about telekinetic powers, enhanced reflexes, psychic abilities...it would basically make Jedi and Sith like the X Men and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. But in the OT, there is at least a suggestion that there is morality at play, and spirituality, that being in touch with the Light Side of the Force or the "will of the Force" is a good thing, and being on the Dark Side or using the Force to conform to YOUR will was a bad thing. There is a "religious" quality to it. For example, Luke's test at "the tree" in ESB feels like something out of a myth or a fairy tale...So for some of us, it feels weird that Force Affinity, or potential for it, can be measured, like having blood drawn to check your cholesterol levels. It would be like saying "Lancelot, you will be the best of my knights - and I know because the lab results just came back and your blood test looks great" or "Only those truly pure of heart can pass the guardian of the gate and live...and you;ll do fine, your blood tests look great". It takes something cosmic and mystical and spiritual and "moral" and makes it seem biochemical and mundane.

I understand if that doesn't bother some. Just saying that I think that is at the core of why it DOES bother others.

 

I agree and I could add that it makes the selection of potential Jedi just a numbers game.
Above a certain number, great, future Jedi. Below, sorry.
That the choice of who to train isn't about who they are as people, their beliefs, their sense of morality or strength of character. Their insight and wisdom. Those don't matter, just their blood.
It becomes a bit more clinical, more detached.

Sort of like in the film GATTACA, where genetic modification has become quite common. Now a job interview is simply giving a urine sample. If you have been given a genetic "fix" then you can get any job. If not, then sorry, janitor, dishwasher or other such jobs is your lot. Does not matter who you are as a person, only your genes.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I think this is the main reason I don't like it. People in the PT seem to have a very scientific understanding of how the force operates. But when those same characters discuss the force in the OT (which is two decades later) suddenly it's talked about like its something that they don't fully understand.

It'd be like if, in the real world, we cracked the human genome and then in 2127, someone made a prequel to THE KARATE KID where someone runs a blood test to see how well their DNA supports the learning of karate. And then someone says, "Well there's nothing in the original film stating that they DIDN'T know about the human genome. Maybe this series takes place in an alternate reality where they figured out the genome back in 1980."

There's no real way to answer that other than to point at the movie and say, "This clearly was not going on during this film." Yoda clearly did not know about medichlorians in TESB which is why he speaks of the force in a spiritual/mystical sense as opposed to a scientific/clinical sense.

 

I always cringe when people state that the midi-chlorians made the force less mystical and divide.
1) The force is not midi-chlorians. They are just the messengers.
2) They were not needed to be mentioned in the CT since the focus was somewhere else. In the PT the midi-chlorians were extremely relevant.
3) If George Lucas had made his ST the midi-chlorians would probably have made even more sense -- but since fanboys didn't like the concept they were not be seen or heard of in TFA (which still is the lowest form of human art there is). Maybe George wanted to STAR WARS to be the story bout the relationship between father and child, the relationship between man and politics, and the relationship between man and nature (i.e. the force). George would have been digging the well.

 

Vader didn't need to be Luke's father. Obi-Wan didn't need to die on the Death Star. The Emperor didn't need to be a Force user. The cave on Dagobah didn't need to exist. Han didn't need to be in TESB. Star Wars didn't need to take place a long time ago in another galaxy.
Etc.

 

One thing I like about midichlorians is that I find it perfectly natural that people would try and understand the force in different ways, to study it, or to put it under a microscope. Whether this method or the conclusions they draw from it are correct is still up for debate

For instance in the TPM when Anakin is confirmed to have a higher count than Yoda, the response is not a cut and dry "oh nice, he's more powerful than yoda, sign him up to the order and make him our leader". Rather Obi-wan asks "what does that mean?" And quigon responds "I dont know". Even these characters are unsure of what conclusions to draw from the count. So it's not like a hard math problem of more chlorians = better jedi, or whatever

Did yoda himself ever mention midichlorians in the PT?

 

He did off-camera: "Master, sir, I heard Yoda talking about midi-chlorians. I've been wondering... What are midi-chlorians?"

 

The midis makes the question who gets to be a Jedi or not just a result of a blood test. Not who the person is, their beliefs or strength of character. Just numbers on a screen.

The midis could indeed to needed in the OT since Luke is tasked to pass on what he has learned, to find others to train. And if an easy way to find potential Jedi is to do that is doing a simple blood test, then that would be very relevant for him to know.

And no, the midis were not needed in the PT. Anakin could simply be a very gifted kid that Qui-Gon wants to train. Anakin can pod-race, something impossible for humans. That alone shows he is very gifted.
And you could add Qui-Gon seeing him in Watto's shop and something is about to fall on Anakin but before Qui-Gon can say or do anything, Anakin moves out of the way of the falling object, even though he could not have seen it. Showing that Anakin can use the Force in a very limited way despite his young age and despite no training.

Well the ANH novelization has Obi-wan say that the Force has not been properly explained and that scientist guess/theorize that it is an energy field created by all living things.
So the implication seemed to be that people have tried to scientifically explain the Force but not really been able to.

That is not the implication I got from it.
Obi-Wan seems surprised and wonders what it could mean. To me this suggest that Yoda's count is already abnormally high and here comes Anakin and puts that to shame. Yoda is almost a millennia old and THE Jedi Master. And here is some kid with a count that is even higher. What could that mean, how powerful could Anakin become?

Ex. say that the average count for a Jedi is between 14-16 000, Mace has a high count of 18 500 and Yoda has 19 200. Anakin has 20 000. Very high but not that much higher than Yoda. So notable but nothing totally unheard of.
If instead the average count is between 5-7000, Mace has about 9000 and Yoda just about 10 000. Now here comes Anakin with a count that is double that. This would be so far removed form normal that Obi-wan and Qui-Gon would wonder what this could mean. Anakin's count isn't just very high, it is the highest ever recorded. So they don't fully know what they are dealing with.

And the existence of the test and given that Qui-Gon said that if Anakin had been born in the republic, they would have identified him early. And adding to this the fact that Jedi to be are taken in very young. Age 9 was too old. Children that young could not really ask to become Jedi, nor could they do Force tests, try to lift things etc.
The conclusion would then be that all children in the republic are given a midi test when they are born, along with the standard tests. If the number is high enough, the Jedi are notified and come calling on the parents and informing them that their child is a potential Jedi and will they let they Jedi have their child?
The parents can say no and that is the end of that. If they say yes, they will never see their child again.

So I think the film does make an implication that a high number is needed to qualify to be a Jedi. Too low and you can't become a Jedi. And given that Palpatine bragged that Vader would become the most powerful of them all then that further suggest that higher number = higher potential as Jedi/Sith = more potential power.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

In the story George Lucas wanted to tell they are crucial. Like I said: TFA dismissed the ideas of bringing the microscopic world of Star Wars to the table. In the story you wanted to be told in Star Wars the midi-chlorians may be a scratch. I like them a lot since I'm interested in listening to what artists have to say. Not everyone is like me (and many others who are invested in George Luvas' vision) -- Prometheus took a lot of **** from people like you who believes they know better than the artist in question. Why dont you write a review of the Bible and complain about Jesus and why he had to be the son of God?