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PT Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Sep 7, 2019.

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Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

  1. Yes

    94 vote(s)
    83.9%
  2. No

    18 vote(s)
    16.1%
  1. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2012
    nearly every every creative idea gets more hate then it deserves
     
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  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    First there is a difference between what a creators wants to do and needs to do. RotJ, by being a sequel to ESB, Needed to deal with; Han's rescue, is Vader really Luke's father and who is the "other"?
    Ignoring one or all of these would cause problems and lead to holes in the story and narrative dead ends.
    Lucas Wanted to have another DS there and the Ewoks. Kasdan didn't like the Ewoks and Wanted Had Abbadon, so they argued about that and eventually we got Ewoks. The DS2 and the Ewoks were not required by ESB but Lucas wanted them there. Which is fine, it is his choice. What is also fine is for people to have an opinion about those. Like feeling that another DS is retreading old ground, that a legion of the Empire's best soldiers loosing to Ewoks is a bit much. But as long as people are able to present their opinion in a calm and non-insulting manner, there is no problem.
    The PT, by being the backstory to the OT Had to include, Anakin, him being trained by Obi-Wan, him having two children, Luke and Leia, his turn to the Dark side. It had to include the emperor, the fall of the jedi and the Republic.
    Lucas wanted Qui-Gon there, again his choice, but it wasn't required by the OT.

    Second, about Prometheus, I did like some things in it, some of the performances and some of the characters. The design and cinematography was great, as it often is with Ridley Scott.
    There were some interesting ideas there but also some that made no sense. And at times the characters, despite being supposed trained professionals, acted really stupid.
    Ex. the geologist was suddenly freaked out by the idea of long dead alien bodies, why? He signed up to an expedition to an alien world and coming across long dead bodies was just so scary? He even got the biologist, who you would think be interested in alien lifeforms to leave. And despite them having a 3-D map, communications and the geologist had those mapping things, they got lost.
    Then two other scientist get the alien head to the ship and decide to attach some electrodes and play Frankenstein. And they are on an alien planet and they find that inside the structure the air is now breathable and so one guy takes off his helmet. Dude never thought that there could be alien germs in the air that could be really dangerous.
    As for the notion that the Engineers made humans. Did they just make humans or did they make all life on Earth? If the latter, they are a really old race as that would have been about 2-3 billion years ago so they are playing a REALLY long game. If just humans, then how come human DNA is so very similar to other lifeforms on Earth? And you still have quite a lot of time, maybe a million years or so. So still a rather long game. And just how did the two scientist reach this conclusion after finding 15 000 year old carvings in several parts of the world? The idea that aliens had visited Earth back then and interacted with several groups of humans. That is a bit iffy but I can go with it. But from that to go to, "They created us" and totally ignoring evolution and everything else. And just how did they convince a rich guy to fund this expedition with this nonsense? They could just have said "We have signs that an alien race visited Earth long ago and left clues to their home so we want to go there." That would be enough, why have this other stuff there? You could have it in the film but they only find out when they get to the planet.

    So the film was mixed but I was still interested in a sequel, because I did like the main character, there were some interesting stuff with the android and possibly we would get more answers. But then I heard that the main character was killed off between films and we would get no answer about the Engineers, so now my interest was lessened. And then the trailer made it seem like Alien all over again and the reviews did not help. So I skipped it.
    Shame really because there was potential there but alas it was wasted.
    Like what happened with the ST.
    Great potential, lost by poor execution.

    Lastly, creators puts ideas out there and sometimes they get criticism from the audience.
    Skids and Mudflap in TF2 got a lot of complaints. The "Imprinting" idea in Twilight did not go over that well.
    Luke in TLJ, quite a few felt that he was not how the character was before and was a disservice to the character. People are allowed to have different opinions about things.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  3. boonjj

    boonjj Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2016
    ah yes, of course.

    Well if that is the only instance of yoda mentioning chlorians then there is a ton of leg room for what yodas opinion of them could be. maybe it was just one aspect of the force that exists and so yoda taught padawans of their existance, as any capable teacher would. it doesnt inform you of the conclusions yoda drew regarding them.


    if midichlorians are as cut and dry as has been posited by some people then isnt it clear what it means - child anakin is the most powerful jedi/force user in the galaxy.

    what about all the hulaboo with yoda and windu rejecting anakin due to his age and emotions? they took other aspects into account did they not

    with the infastrucutre and systems in place in the republic (schools, etc) test results could get back to jedi, although they could be aptitude and skill based instead of blood tests. but these are all assumptions to my knowledge.

    however i think its worth noting that just because blood tests/midichlorain counts are a thing that exist, that does not then eliminate all other possible methods of gauging force powers from existing also. in tpm I always got the feeling that gui-gon sensed ani's powers before he ever took the blood test, eg.: "There's something about this boy".

    It seems perfectly reasonable to me that both means of gauging force powers - a general "sensing" from jedi and sith, and a more scientific approach with tests and whatnot - could co-exist within the universe.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  4. Moonshield76

    Moonshield76 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2020
    I've always thought (even before PT was released) that Force-sensitive people must have a difference in their blood, which can be inherited, because Luke's father was a Jedi and Luke himself is a Jedi. Because if everyone can be a Jedi and use the Force, than the Empire must have divisions of Force-sensitive soldiers.

    On the other hand, if the Jedi are just rare random people, then it cannot be inherited. Anyway, the physical difference between the Force-sensitive people and between the other people always feels more real than just "something magical". For example, in The Witcher witchers have a big difference in their blood from the other people.
     
  5. takotsubo

    takotsubo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2020
    "First there is a difference between what a creators wants to do and needs to do. RotJ, by being a sequel to ESB, Needed to deal with; Han's rescue, is Vader really Luke's father and who is the "other"?"
    - That is a pretty weird thing to say. Maybe if Lucas would have stayed pretty true to conventions with RotJ. With TPM he broke new grounds and laid the foundations for new territories to be discovered -- things George probably wanted to tell children about and things he himself wanted to explore. He had no obligations. In arts there are no such things as obligations -- there are conventions though, and movies that strictly follows these conventions are pretty much doomed to be forgotten. With RotJ he got lazy. He just as well have excluded Darth Vader and Han and just having the plot being about Luke sitting on a mountain trying to deal with the traumas from ESB. :)

    "The PT, by being the backstory to the OT Had to include, Anakin, him being trained by Obi-Wan, him having two children, Luke and Leia, his turn to the Dark side. It had to include the emperor, the fall of the jedi and the Republic."
    - The PT is not a backstory, silly. It's 50% of the story. ;) And none of those things needed to happen. George wanted them to be told explictilybut those plot points could just as well not have been shown -- and PT is indeed very much just the tip of the iceberg. At least 90% of the themes and plot points in TPM are taking place outside whats in frame. The midi-chlorians are mentioned three or four times -- yet they matter much since they apparantly where the focus of Lucas' ST and something that underlines how arrogant the Jedi has become.

    "There were some interesting ideas there but also some that made no sense. And at times the characters, despite being supposed trained professionals, acted really stupid."
    - I suppose Prometheus is a sweet mix of science fiction, philosophical statement, fantasy etc. Just like AotC is a mix of soap opera, thriller, western etc. Maybe this sequence is a little homage to the slasher genre? Maybe...? Maybe Scott wanted some good old fashioned slasher in the mix?

    Ex. the geologist was suddenly freaked out by the idea of long dead alien bodies, why? He signed up to an expedition to an alien world and coming across long dead bodies was just so scary? He even got the biologist, who you would think be interested in alien lifeforms to leave.
    - If you happened to see a bunch of dead aliens who had been slaughtered by something would't that have been a bit scary? Just a tad?

    And despite them having a 3-D map, communications and the geologist had those mapping things, they got lost.
    - Maybe the place was cursed. Maybe there are gods in ridley´s universe? Gods who interact with men? Imagine if Gods created enginers, enginers created man, man created machine. Everyone playing with nature.

    But from that to go to, "They created us" and totally ignoring evolution and everything else.
    - I love when artists go against science to utter their own mind and, believes, feelings... Well... maybe the enginers brought animals to earth? I don't know... Don't really care... Much more invested in the theme of opportunity to create, save and take lives... Not so much in what Prometheus has to tell me about why birds and men have similar DNA....

    :)

    Edit: Remembering myself when I was like 15 or 16 and had similar thoughts about PT as you -- had to laugh and cringe just a bit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Not really, wants and needs are pretty basic.
    I need to breathe, if I don't I die. I might want a beer but won't die if I don't have one. Thus a beer isn't necessary but I might want it.

    Lucas did have obligations, that is one reason why RotS feels so rushed, Lucas had to tick off a bunch of items on a checklist. Anakin must turn, check. Obi-Wan and Anakin must fight, check. Anakin has to be burned, check. He has to put in the suit, check. Luke and Leia must be born, check.
    I know there was stuff that Lucas wanted to put in the film but he had to cut it because there was so much he had to do.

    Lucas hands were tied in several ways. He wanted to be creative and was. But he could not do anything he wanted. Or rather he could, he could just have filmed his shoes for two hours and called it ep I but he knew that would not work. So it was a juggling act, a balance between what he needed to include and what he wanted to include because it interested him.
    Sort of like with RotJ. But there Lucas was tired of SW and wanted to wrap things up quickly.

    -
    Nope the PT is the backstory to the OT. It has to match up with what the OT established. The OT came first, it is the story. The PT provides more details, many a different context to the story, but it is backstory.
    Nothing wrong with that of course and it does not mean the PT or any prequel is inferior.

    Slasher films also tend to be filled with stupid characters and very old tropes. You can always tell who will live, the girl that does not jump into bed with a guy. And when two characters try to have sex, they get killed.
    Prometheus is mixture all right, of some good concepts mixed in with half baked ideas and a lot of stupid.

    When they are centuries dead, not really. I have seen skeletons, yeah when I was ten, they scared me. Not so much when I was an adult.
    Going into space would be far scarier. You are protected from the vacuum of space but just a think sheet of metal. What is outside is cold, radiated void, that would kill you quite quickly.

    "The place was cursed"? As answers go, does not work. Why did this "Curse" not affect the others?
    I call it for what it is, lazy writing. Those two had to become stuck there and get killed so cue the "Idiot Plot".

    But the film does not really do much with these ideas either.
    The engineers created humans. Why? Not answered.
    Then they want to destroy humans. Why? Not answered.
    They left signs pointing to their weapons planet. Why? Not answered.

    If you just throw a bunch of question at the wall and don't bother with trying to explain any of it. That can loose me. That is what happened with LOST. they just set up mystery after mystery and often never tried to explain any of the old ones. Eventually I realized that they never would try to explain any more than a tiny fraction of the mysteries they had set up. So my interest waned.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  7. mackmitchell94

    mackmitchell94 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2016
    I don’t think Vader lost power because he was cut up and burned (and so lost midis) . I think it has to do with him having to live in that iron lung of a suit for the rest of his life, and the suit limiting him and his potential . For example: because he was in the suit he couldn’t use force lightning because it would short circuit his breathing apparatus and kill him (which is what happened) . His mobility was also greatly reduced. That being said, Vader could’ve killed Luke easily in Return Of The Jedi if he wanted to. The reason he doesn’t is because Luke is his son. He’s conflicted and holds back against Luke which is why Luke is able to defeat him after becoming enraged . But if Vader wanted to kill Luke and went at him with all his power and intent to kill, that fight wouldn’t have lasted 2 minutes probably . Palpatine wants Luke as his apprentice because he knows Vader’s potential is limited by the suit, he knows while not being at Vader’s level now, Luke would eventually become more powerful than Vader. He sees Luke as what Anakin could’ve been if he’d not suffered such grievous injuries, and he’s also younger. So yeah I don’t think losing limbs makes you have less a connection to the force . Anakin lost his arm in attack of the clones and didn’t seem to weaken his connection, in fact it seems to have done nothing but make him stronger physically .

    First of all, let’s replace “midichlorians” with “mitochondria” which is basically what they are . Everyone in the Star Wars universe has the force but only some are force sensitive and can wield the force, makes sense. Force sensitive beings happen to have more mitochondria (midichlorians) than non force sensitive beings. This makes sense because the force is an energy field that connects all living things and binds the galaxy together, and the smallest living things (the mitochlorians lol) have a connection to the force and are symbionts with the organisms whose body they inhabit . Without the mitochondria, there’d be no life . Without the midichlorians, there’d be no life . The force is still an energy field that connects and flows through all living things, it’s just that force sensitive beings happen to have more mitochondria than non force sensitives, Makes sense. That Yoda speech btw is the one of my favorite scenes in the whole saga .
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    But the reason that certain people can hear the force is because of having more Midichlorians. Apparently the midichlorians are how the force is able to speak with people. And the more of them you have, the easier it is for the force to speak to you. Qui-Gon says that's how Jedi can hear the "will of the force" because the force is apparently sentient now. It's not just alive, but has one single consciousness.

    Plus this also raises the question of how all these diverse lifeforms, that have evolved across millions of planets, all seem to be able to support midichlorians.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  9. mackmitchell94

    mackmitchell94 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2016
    The way I look at it is that the force is responsible for all life in the Star Wars galaxy . The first life forms were the midichlorians and all life evolved from them . Because they were the first life forms, they have the most pure connection with the force so if a being has more midichlorians, that makes them force sensitive . It’s the whole micro-biotic world of star wars that for Lucas goes way back when he wrote the first drafts of it in the 70s “the adventures of Luke Starkiller as taken from the journal of the whills” . The whills at first were immortal beings that recorded all the stories for Star Wars in “The Journal of the Whills” and each episode was one of those chapters. But Lucas turned them into life forms that are basically the force and what communicate with the midichlorians.

    There are two aspects of the force, the living force and cosmic force(the whills) . The living force is the energy field created by all living things and it feeds into the cosmic force, which binds all living things and the galaxy together, communicating the will of the force through the midichlorians which are in all life. The only question is: what determines if someone is born with force sensitivity . Obviously we know it can be passed on hereditarily, but other people are born force sensitive without their parents being so and not every force user comes from a force sensitive bloodline. My theory is that the whills are responsible for who is born with force sensitivity and who is not .

    This part of the star wars mythology was what Lucas was gonna delve into with his sequel trilogy, and to this day we don’t really know much about it which is a shame. I would’ve been really interested in seeing the micro-biotic realm and learning about the whills and cosmic force but instead we got Reylo, and an inferior retelling of the original trilogy . Woohoo !!
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  10. takotsubo

    takotsubo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2020
    This is sad reading since this just shows how people tend to think they should whereas they should not tell artists how to create -- in other words people seem to think they know better than the artist how a story should be told. There is some strange and unconventional storytelling in the best of arts (i.e. 2001 and The Deer Hunter). But when it comes to Star Wars people seem to think of it as some random space adventure in the style of Indiana Jones when George Lucas seemed to be influenced by many more genres and ideas than your typical Flash Gordon strip. The PT is art of the higher order -- it's spontaneous and reflects his vision. In short: there is no such thing as obligations when it comes to art. You are given what you are given -- one should see and listen and interpret. But in the end, it's all about taste: some people in the audience might be invested in the story and interested in how the creator tells the story, and some people might be interested in just their own vision.

    And as for the (what you call) "rushed" feeling of ROTS: I'm once again all on George's side. I too believed it felt rushed when I was 14. Since then I have grown up to appreciate his iceberg-technique There were hints all along of a strong bond between Anakin and Palpatine... There seems to be have a lot of stuff going on between them between TPM and AotC. Maybe they took a bath together when Anakin was a minor... There are some Greek vibes alright when you think about it.

    Imagine if you had witten a book with six chapters and someone told you that only the last three chapters were the real story. Or would you only call the Russian Roulette-part in The Deer Hunter the real story, the first act an prologue, and the last act an epilogue? I'd say the russian roulette-part is the equal to ROTS in the story of STAR WARS -- that is: ROTS is the Peripeteia.

    If we go back to the very beginning there seemed to be this idea of STAR WARS being a story about war and family told through the journals of something called the Whills... Don't really know what these things are since we weren't told about them in the ST. Thus STAR WARS seems to be the story about the Whills telling the story about things happening in the galaxy. With the establishing of the Midi-Chlorians in TPM the story was not longer just about the conflict between the good guys vs. the bad guys and the story about a father and his son. Suddenly -- with the establishing of Midi-Chlorians and Qui Gon's unorthodox relationship with the force -- there is a story about the seeking for God in the mix.

    Thus: in the PT we have a story about a child becoming a monster, a story about a failing democracy, and the search for God.
    In the OT we are being told the story about a father and his son, and the story about rebels fighting the empire.
    In the ST we would probably had focused on the search for God again -- knitting it up.

    The things you thought were stupid with these characters were supposed to be stupid. Just like Jar-Jar and C3PO were supposed to be irritating and funny.

    Let's say you go to Mars in the future and you see this giant dead spider in the desert... their reactions are pretty true to the conventions of slasher and reality...

    Again: idiot plot is supposed to be idiot plot. And there are certainly many religious undertones in prometheus. The nature is acting against the humans in many ways... Just like in the bible.

    Yeah... Elizabeth Shaw went to seek the answers in the end of the movie. And some questions maybe weren't meant to be answered directly just like the Sifo Dyas-plot in AotC... The creator put the questions in there just to bring a sense of mystery and richness to his world. :)

    ;)
     
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  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    It has nothing to do with knowing better than the author, it has everything to do with knowing what came before and the difference between what a creator wants to include and what they have to include.
    When making RotJ, Lucas knew that he HAD to resolve the issue about if Vader really was Luke's father, he had to explain who "The other" was. Doing otherwise would be narratively unsatisfying.
    That is why Leia became Luke's sister. She was the only person it could be. Introducing a brand new character for just this film would take time. As would elevating a minor character like Wedge.
    So of the existing characters, Leia was the option that worked best. Han was older than Luke so him as the older brother would be odd. Chewie the Jedi would be met with laughter. Lando had started out as rather shady and while he had changed his ways, him as a Jedi would again be odd.

    Same with the PT, Lucas knew that there were certain things he had to include.
    Could Lucas have done a PT that is set 1000 years before the OT and all new characters?
    Sure but there would be a reaction to that and Lucas knew that such a thing would be risky.
    He has to balance being an artist and a businessman. Some have felt that RotJ and the PT was too far into the latter, that too much focus was spent on toys and things to sell.
    And since Lucas finances these films himself, he knows they have to sell well.
    That does not mean he is a sell-out but he can not ignore the reality of that either.

    As far as art, I would rate the PT as just a bit above average. Good overall story, some interesting ideas and neat concepts. But marred by uneven execution, writing, directing and acting.

    The Anakin/Palpatine connection is oen thing that I think the PT did work hard to establish and it mostly worked. I think that Anakin acted way too gullible in most of RotS and swallowed all of Palpatine stories hook, line and sinker.

    Lucas himself have said that there were things he planned to include in RotS but had to cut because there was so much else. And he has said that RotS had about 60% of the story he had before starting with the PT. So it was a bit backloaded, a lot had to happen in the last film.



    No, the OT was written first and it was the story then. When writing ANH Lucas had vague plans for sequels and very maybe a plan for one prequel. So the PT did not exist when the OT was created, nor was the PT needed for the OT to function.
    The PT was backstory, it added details, possibly more understanding and nuance to the world and the characters.
    Same with CS Lews, "The Magicians Nephew". That is a prequel to "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
    It provides backstory to the Witch, to Narnia, to the Professor, the Wardrobe. That does not make it bad, but it is backstory. It has to conform with what had been established earlier.

    That is one of the reasons why writing prequels is tricky, you know how the story will end and there is a balancing act of how close you follow what had been hinted or established.
    Adhere too much to it and then people might complain that it is boring, too obvious and have no surprises.
    Change too much and then people might complain that it does not fit with established lore.

    An interesting example is the first Fantastic Beasts film, not the second. And the Cursed Child, the play/script.
    The film was set before the HP films but was largely disconnected to those. It involved one villain that had played a minor part earlier and Dumbledore was mentioned. Other than that, it was mostly it's own thing.
    To me, it mostly worked, it had issues but functioned well.
    Cursed Child instead stepped into several of the "Fanboy rage traps" by tinkering with established characters, events etc. Plus it had the big reset button, that things were changed and then changed back.

    The Whills are never mentioned in the PT or OT. What they were back when ANH was written, was just a narrative device. Someone that had written down the story that is being told. You had stuff like that in the Foundation books with excerpts from the Encyclopedia Galactica.
    I have no idea how you got a looking for God narrative in the PT.
    At most you have Anakin as "Space Jesus" but no much is done with that.

    In ST 5 Shatner wanted to do a search for God and higher meaning and Gene Roddenberry tried to talk him out of it.

    Jar Jar was not funny and mostly was a waste of time.
    And this might surprise you, if I find something to be bad, if you tell me that it was supposed to be bad then that does not make it any better.

    Except it wasn't a giant spider, it was humanoid, just a bit larger than us.
    And why would centuries dead aliens be more scary than the possibility of alive and maybe hostile aliens be more scary? They refuse to bring any weapons with them. The geologist had problem with that.
    So the idea that he could encounter a living and armed alien looking to kill him, that was fine.

    Again, doing something bad on purpose does not make it good. Bad is not another word for good.
    It means bad, poor, subpar, lacking in quality.
    I have seen and gotten some enjoyment from a few bad films in having a few beers with my friends and laughing how inept the film is.

    An Idiot Plot is not a good idea, it isn't a sign of good writing. Instead it is a sign of lazy or bad writing.
    The author does not want to bother coming up with plausible reasons why the characters do what they do. They just do it because the plot needs it.

    If you ask me "I wonder why that guy 20 miles from here turned left?" That is not a mystery, that is just a question.
    Writing a solid mystery involves more than just putting a lot of questions into the story. You need to provide some answers as well.
    LOST fell into this trap, it spent so much time setting up questions and then not answering a lot of them.
    People complained about JJ's "Mystery Boxes" in TFA and how several of them had no follow up.

    I like many of Terry Gilliams films. His Time Bandits is a good example of a film that both children and adults can enjoy. I saw it when I was eleven and then much later as an adult and both times I liked it but got different things from it.
    His Twelve Monkeys was also, to me, solid. It had a lot of questions, didn't answer all of them but provided enough answers that the audience could figure out the ending. Plus it had some really good performances.

    In all, I think we have drifted way off-topic.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  12. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Exactly. The OT can exist (and be as satisfying on its own) without The PT. Can the PT exist (and be as satisfying on its own) without the OT? Not exactly...

    Right on. It is false to claim that The Prequels were simply the 1st half of a pre-existing story that was told out of order. The OT was the story. The PT came later and is back story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  13. in my opinion midichlorians contradict TCW views on the force is not a force planet or the Whills is just a scientific way to explain the force
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2021
  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Whenever anyone sits down to write a story, they have to come up with a backstory so that the narrative itself doesn't feel like it exists in a vacuum. Every good writer does this. Any class you take on writing will tell you to do this.

    Lucas later taking those early notes and also turning them into a story doesn't retroactively make the OT less complete. And Lucas tried his hardest to make the OT seem like it needed the PT to function (even going as far as putting Hayden into the end of ROTJ) but that's just Lucas creating a problem so that he himself can """fix""" it.
     
  15. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't think the movies say that the force is scientific or try to explain it in a scientific way.
    I think what's happening impacts the plot, and I've seen him be found to be funny.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  16. The Prequels movies retcon the force in Episode 1 thanks to the backlash TCW retcon the force again to make the force to be like in the OT
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2021
  17. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Wow I didn’t realize how much this thread had moved along whole I’ve been busy with my summer job and not as active. A couple of things I want to say:
    1) I don’t see how midiclorians are any less mystical than regular genetic inheritance, as the OT already established that it was a trait some people had and others didn’t. If the ability to levitate objects was an exclusive power that was affected by your genes, 21st century Earth science would in all likelihood be able to test for it, let alone what technology is capable of in the GFFA.

    2) I agree that midichlorians are probably unnecessary as a concept but I think that just goes to show that they’re not some radical change to the lore as we knew it from the OT. If the rest of the story stays exactly the same if you remove them then clearly they don’t have that much of impact in the first place.

    3) Anakin loses to both Obi-wan and Count Dooku in the PT despite having more midichlorians than either of them because that’s obviously not how it works.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
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  18. takotsubo

    takotsubo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2020
    "Narratively unsatisfying"? The storyteller can take the story whichever road he/she wants. That phrase "narratively unsatisfying" seems very narrow-minded and dogmatic. Some kind of thing Redlettermedia would throw out just to make their point more valid. What if Hollywood always followed the rules of the greek drama? Wouldn't that have been boring? Oh, wait a minute... ;) narratively unsatisfying.... what a phrase.... what a phrase, Mark... I love Lucas for taking Star Wars whichever road he took it and not being guided by some boring recommendations.

    Smart guy. He used them toys with great effect I believe.

    Maybe the Phantom menace has many similarities with "The Magicians Nephew" in it being some kind of prelude. But since Star Wars episode I-VI is the story about Anakins rise and fall and redemption it's very hard to say that episode IV-VI is the story: episode IV-VI is just the redemption-part of the story. Episode I is the rise, episode II and III are the fall. They are very much needed to to tell the story bout Anakin. And since you seem to have such narrow-minded view of the art of storytelling you should know that as well. But yes, I do agree that episode IV-VI work as a standalone trilogy... But then again: I wouldn't really call them two trilogies but rather a hexalogy. And if George would have made his midi-chlorian trilogy Star Wars would have been an ennealogy. The seeds for that trilogy was plated during TPM.

    But then came the Butthurt Boys -- men who were screaming and interrupting while George was trying to tell a story.

    Ah... Maybe I wasn't very clear... I mean... I think the search for eternal life ("the ability to save life") and the spring of the force is like a search for God... Sorry for not being clear enough...

    I believe Tarantino has several idiot plots in his movies. Pulp Fiction is awesome even if it's plot is "idiot plot".

    Just think for a bit. Just one second... What if Prometheus is a movie about questions? What if the theme of the movie is the search for answers. About doubt. In the movie they find some while some are left unresolved. Ridley Scott is quite a religious guy. Much doubt in him it seems to me.

    One of the many themes in TPM and AotC may be the mystery. Some of the mysteries are political (like the clone army) and some of them are metaphysical.

    The difference between JJ and Scott -- according to me -- is that there are themes in Scott's mysteries while the mysteries in JJ's movies are mere plot points.
     
  19. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I believe it does get too much hate. While the Darth Plagueis novel makes the prophecy, the Force being out of balance, and the midi-chlorians more interesting, I never had a problem with these concepts before I read it. I was like, "Oh, okay. That explains why not everyone can be a Jedi or Sith." One may surmise that some individuals like Padme (i.e. her scene of staring out the window when Anakin is contemplating her in ROTS), Han Solo, Jango Fett, and Boba Fett had a low level of Force-sensitivity, but not on the Jedi/Sith level. Plus, the EU makes good use of the concept when Palpatine's Jedi "friend, "Ronhar Kim," has an apprentice who believes they should test the entire Senate to ascertain the identity of the hidden Sith Lord.





    The midi-chlorians, much like the prequel films themselves, get too much hate. My main problem with the prequels is the dialogue between Anakin and Padme. Otherwise, the prequel films are far better than the sequel films. Obviously, the fact that the prequels and the EU are canon to me and the sequels are not says something.
     
  20. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Midi-chlorians ended up being nothing more than a throwaway idea in TPM that weren't really developed or used further.

    I don't know if something silly in a movie deserves "hate"... but they were pointless since any mention of them could be removed from the PT and nothing would change in the story at all.
     
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  21. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Well Midi-chlorians were mentioned in TPM and again in ROTS when Palpatine talks about the Midi-chlorians being used to create life.

    In terms of them not being mentioned all that much. thats because fans cried about it. so Lucas held back mentioning them.

    Although The Mandalorian referenced them. even if it was just "M-count" but we still know what it means. and the idea of them needing Grogu probably wouldn't have worked without the idea of the Midi-chlorians being a thing. since they were obviously extracting something from him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
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  22. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Ahh I missed that in the Mandalorian - interesting! Thanks

    FWIW, even though I personally think they are kind of silly, I don't think they are some huge deal that OMG ruin everything!!! I actually consider it good that not much was explained and most of the mystery was left in place.

    Unless I missed something we still don't know why force users have a higher count or how they get them in their blood in the first place... so the origin of force powers is still fairly mysterious
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  23. wobbits

    wobbits Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2017
    Yes. I think the idea of midichlorians gets way too much hate. It doesn't change the force for me, doesn't make it seem like it's less special or scientific but then again I was never one of those people who somehow thought that you could only be a powerful Jedi if you were a Skywalker/related to someone. The PT clearly shows Jedi of varying sexes and species that are obviously not related to a Skywalker. The midichlorians gave a tangible measurement in the moment to Qui Gon's strong belief that Anakin was the Chosen One.
     
  24. SHAD0W-JEDI

    SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    I think one problem with trying to discuss the midichlorian concept is that it's a discussion about taste, versus a discussion about logic or fact or canon inconsistency. Those are tough to ever resolve.

    Lots of fantasy universes play around with similar ideas (and I am using "fantasy" broadly here, to definitely include some superhero and sci fi universes). For example, in the HARRY POTTER universe, best as I recall, "magical aptitude" seems to run in some families, BUT it appears some people can simply be born with that aptitude from parents with no particular magical aptitudes (now, whether there were magically gifted people somewhere in the family tree, going back, we don't know). This concept was pretty central to the story - you had a number of the villains who were obsessed with "blood purity", thus the term "mudbloods" being derogatory. Even so, I think the HP stories left some aspects of this vague, perhaps by design. In MY HERO ACADEMIA, most people are born with super powers - although many aren't particularly strong, or useful, or applicable to "super powered combat". In that way, MHA features ideas similar to the mutants in the X-Men lore, although in the Marvel canon mutants are (relatively) rare while in the MHA world, they are the norm. In both MHA and X-Men lore, there is the suggestion of certain bloodlines being particularly powerful -- but there are "one off" exceptions to this, with some frequency.

    As I've noted above, I think the "midi" thing is problematic for some of us because, as sketchily as it may be defined, there is a sense that being in tune to the will of the Force, to the Force in general, is a "good thing", in a moral sense. There is a hint of the supernatural, of the mystical. The Jedi and Sith aren't simply people gifted with telekinesis and enhanced reflexes and the like. It is suggested that the Jedi seek to be aligned with the "Light Side" of the Force (a good thing) and that the Sith are actively aligned with the Dark Side (a bad thing, although both the Sith and some SW fans seek to suggest this is all a matter of perspective - I'd argue that if Palpatine and Vader are good representatives of the Dark Side outlook, it's clearly an evil one!). This is VERY different from the HP universe, or the MHA or Marvel universes, for example. The evil wizards in HP are evil people who HAPPEN to have magical abilities. The villains in MHA and the Marvel Universe are villainous people who have powers. The SIth in SW are more complicated than that - they may or may not start off as evil but by being "in touch" with the Dark Side of the Force, they are tapping into an evil power, which in turn seems to further corrupt and degrade them. In the SW universe, uniquely, there is a moral component TO the power. There is talk of the Light Side and the Dark Side but frankly you might as well talk about the Good Side and the Bad Side.

    And again, as I mentioned above, it rubs some of us the wrong way when something cosmic and philosophical is (to us) "reduced" to something you can measure in a blood test. It's almost like saying the Universe is sentient, it has a voice, but your ability to hear that voice isn't based on wisdom or study or philosophy, it's based on whether you have the right quantity of these things in your blood/cells. It is - for some of us - a weird and unsatisfying melding of the "spiritual" with the mundane and biological.
     
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  25. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    To rephrase something I said earlier... do we actually whether the midis are the cause of force sensitivity or are they just a symptom?

    If they are just a symptom (and not the cause) then I don't think much really changes. It's just a way to measure something that people still don't understand the cause of fully.

    If they are the cause... well then one would think people would be doing all kinds of blood transfusion experiments and such :)
     
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