PT Do you think the Midi-chlorian concept gets more hate than it actually deserves?

I took it to mean something similar to that as well. I never got the vibe that Luke meant genetically they can use the Force. Not to mention - the reason Luke frames it that way is the big reveal that Leia is his sister. "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. My...sister has it." Then he looks at her for her response.

To be honest - the entire thing is a mess. Lucas did toy with the idea even when he was developing the OT, but for some reason - he decided not to incorporate it into the OT. He then likened using/being aware of the Force as something like practicing Martial Arts or Yoga. It is further confusing because he told Kasdan he believed anyone can use the Force, but the Jedi were the only ones that took the time to train in it and understand it. Why did he say that if he wrote a line for Luke to Leia to mean it is hereditary? Was it just sloppy writing or he couldn't figure out that he wanted the Force to only be for particular blood lines?

So it seems even in the RotJ era - Lucas wasn't quite sold yet on putting his midichlorian concept in the OT films.

I'd genuinely like to know why Lucas didn't put it in the OT. Supposedly Lucas felt there was "no time" to do that but clearly when Obi-Wan is talking to Luke about the Force or when Yoda is explaining it to him - he could have added that line in there. Hell - even in Episode I - it's treated as a quick few lines by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. That's why for the longest time - the biggest criticism of it was "I don't like that the Midichlorians are the Force now."

 

Yes, of course he frames it that way because of the reveal that Leia is his sister, but somehow you're drawing the exact opposite conclusion than what is naturally suggested. The whole reason Luke now believes that Leia has the same power as him and his father is because he now knows she's related to them. He didn't know that before, so he didn't believe that before.

And Leia was never shown to be a particularly strong believer in the Force, any more than a guy like General Dodonna was. So why then would Luke tell her she has the same special power, even though she hasn't yet learned to use it? If Force power is based on strong belief, why does Luke tell Leia she currently possesses that power specifically in spite of the fact that she doesn't believe she does? None of this makes the slightest bit of sense under your suggested interpretation. It's just nonsensical and confusing.

Come on. This isn't complicated. The only way it becomes complicated is if you insist on the conversation not being about heredity, as it so obviously is.

Nothing in the films contradicts what Lucas told Kasdan. Just because everyone can use the Force doesn't mean everyone is equally good at using the Force. Lucas had implied a biological component to the Force more than once before this conversation:

Lucas had clearly already decided that the Force had a biological or genetic component, and in fact had articulated this fact specifically in reference to Luke's long-lost sister being strong with the Force.

So the idea that Luke's conversation with Leia had any other possible meaning is just wishful thinking.

 

It would have been your interpretation of it as a child because that would have been pre-prequels, and the idea of the Force being something biological or hereditary from a genetic aspect had not yet been expanded upon in the movies. I certainly don't believe that you were delving into production notes as a kid either.

I am not going to great lengths to twist anything. Let's not forget, that the Force is a metaphysical concept, and prior to the prequels, was explained as being something you had to believe in, like a religion or spiritual concept. Those are not hereditary things. You go to great lengths to use "Qi" as an analogy, and I agree with you that this is probably the closest real-world comparison. But again, that is not something that is passed on genetically.

So when Luke uses that line, taking the OT in isolation, I can interpret it any way I please. And my preferred interpretation is to leave the concept rather vague, as a kind of abstract, fantasy-movie philosophy rather than something strictly biological. That idea still fits and there is no argument to be had as far as I am concerned.

That is how I felt it worked better. It's a fantasy movie trilogy, one in which incompatible ideas such as a belief-based philosophy, metaphysical powers and biological traits are conflated, so to that end I can pretty much steer myself down the way I think that comes across the best.

 

What's funny about this topic is - I normally enjoy learning about magic systems in fictional world building. I like to read their limitations, their potential, who can use it and who can't, what type of powers/magic exist, etc.

So it's not so much that I dislike exploring the Force. In fact, I actually love how in the EU - there is so much more you can do with the Force.

The issue is ... this just doesn't feel like Star Wars (to me). In fact, it feels more like Star Trek. To me - Star Wars has always been science-fantasy. More akin to Game of Thrones, Dragon Age, Lord of the Rings, Dungeons & Dragons, Warcraft, etc. Just replace Dwarves with Wookies.

I don't really mind that the Force has limitations (or its usage does), but ... for some reason this just doesn't mesh very well with the OT.

It's not that I'm drawing the exact opposite conclusion - it's that me, and others like me, are drawing the conclusions offered to us during the OT. It wouldn't be until 16 years later with TPM - that this line would mean the supposedly singular meaning of bloodlines being integral to using the Force. Very little in the OT hinted that except vague dialogue. Lucas himself did not even include it in the OT, his notes or conversations off camera notwithstanding.

It's not that I'm saying that you're wrong or the people who argue Luke meant it via bloodlines is wrong - I'm just saying there are other ways to have read it back when it was just the OT and no PT had existed. I was mostly addressing the criticism of "Lucas always had hereditary aspects of the Force in mind - see Luke and Leia's conversation in RotJ." Well ... that wasn't the only way to read that line back then, especially when there was no concept of microbes being a conduit to the Force. With the PT, of course it's easier to read it simply as a discussion relating to Midichlorians.

When Leia said that Luke had a power that she doesn't understand and could never have - to me that wasn't any different from someone telling a skilled martial arts master "You have a skill I can never understand or have." and the martial arts master saying "You're wrong." I didn't take it to mean something so literal...

If someone tells me I have the same potential to learn Kung Fu or Bushido but I never learned to use it - it doesn't mean that I have some hereditary component. It simply means my potential was always there if I learned how to use it properly. The line could be read in other ways. I understand you're saying it's confusing or nonsensical, but ... I don't see anything complex about reading it in other ways before TPM. A lot of people did.

As to why he is telling her at that moment - Luke is telling her about the Force and how she has that power too because he is planning to go and face Darth Vader alone. Something that could very well lead to his death. It's why he says that if something happens to him - it would fall on her to continue what he had learned. He isn't teaching her about this because he wants her to know she is powerful in the Force and can fight Darth Vader. Luke never intended to fight him. He intended to appeal to his father, whom he believed was buried deep within Darth Vader. He believed only family can awaken that in him and thus - he wanted Leia to be the next hope should he die. There is nothing "nonsensical and confusing" about it considering the RotJ laid this out plain and simple.

"There's more. It won't be easy for you to hear it, but you must. If I don't make it back, you're the only hope for the Alliance." - Luke

I understand that it is hereditary now that the PT is out and the line has been retconned to connect to a concept brought into canon 16 years after the line was written. I'm not saying that you all are wrong, but I hardly think it is "complicated" to view the conversation without Midichlorians. Most of us did before 1999.

Well wait ... if anyone can use the Force (as you stated nothing has been contradicted) - then why even include this concept then? If it is to highlight that some people have more potential with it - then why not leave it at "The Force is unusually strong with him/her." or something along those lines.

I see it being said that "this doesn't really diminish the Force in anyway" but it kind of does. It locks people into their potential. Yes, I know the argument is "If you don't reach your potential - then the people with lower midichlorians can surpass you." Ok - great. But it still creates power levels amongst Force users that was once dictated by belief (spiritual concepts). Now - it's what you are genetically predisposed to at birth and the hope that those more naturally powerful than you are "lazy" so you can surpass them.

I agree with you. It's no secret that Lucas had some type of biological component in mind during the OT run. In my opinion, the OT was better off without it. However, as that was never depicted in the OT - it isn't that surprising that people reached other conclusions granted to them by what the OT said about the Force.

I don't think it's wishful thinking when taking only the OT in mind. With the PT in mind? Yeah, it is wishful thinking on my part.

 

I agree with the above poster @May_The_Force_Be_With_You. The truth is, that prior to 1999, the concept was much more fantasy-based. When you think about the characters saying to each other “May the Force be with you” they aren’t saying “May your blood be of the requisite count of Midichlorians”, it’s a more abstract, general thing.

That was the beauty about it in the OT to my mind. The idea was clear, but still vague and non-prescriptive enough that the viewer could effectively mould the concept of the Force into his own version of what it was and what could be done with it. I believe that is why Star Wars captured the imagination of movie-goers when it was released. It was accessible to everybody.

 

It’s interesting how there are those that see divinity, magic, mysticism as something that has to exist above and beyond the natural world. Having a direct connection to nature defeats the concept and legitimacy that it is a divine principle and there it’s magic and mysticism is lost. For others the natural world is the source of magic, mysticism and divinity. Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism tend to take the view of the latter.

 

^ and of course Natives of the Americas as well, more or less. Actually if you go back not even that far, all cultures saw the world in this sort of way. The spirit world and the physical world were not necessarily mutually exclusive. At the very least it was believed there was a bridge or means of communication between the two worlds, which is basically what the Midichlorians represent, if I'm not mistaken. Even making the two symbiotically dependent.

I'd also counter the notion that everyone should be able to use the Force equally or achieve the same level of Jedi skills. That's just not how nature works. Among all living things there is a spectrum and gradient of innate talents. Yes, everyone says "May the Force be with you", and as Qui-Gon stated, the Midichlorians reside in all living cells. Which backs up what Ben & Yoda said about The Force being connected to all living things. Though, like with all living things, there will be some with more potential than the majority. Take shaman in this example.
Everyone in the tribe can meaningfully say "May the Ancestors be with you", and just because the shaman has a stronger connection with the spirit world doesn't mean they won't be with everyone else too.

I thought it was somewhat obvious that, say, Han couldn't do the things Ben Kenobi did (i.e. mind tricks) even if he'd trained; there was something extra special about Obi-Wan and Luke.

Just like I couldn't become an Olympic gymnast even if I'd trained 24/7, I would simply have been out-competed by my more naturally talented peers. Similarly, there are better Samauri than others. If talent were spread equally everyone would win the gold medal, and there would be no Simone Biles'. Luke and Anakin are kind of like the Michael Jordans of the GFFA, it's what makes thier story spectacular and larger than life.

And when Luke said what he did to Leia, it reinforced the idea that some people have more potential in the Force than others. Maybe I'm looking back with the PT coloring my memories but I will say this; when Lucas is unsure of how he wants something to work, he tends to have a knack for making it explicit enough to carry the story while also open-ended enough to fine tune later. At the very least, I can say that I hadn't cemented myself into one particular outlook on things and was open to whatever GL felt worked best, if it indeed did. Which is open to each viewers interpretation.

And even concerning the Midichlorians, he left that concept relatively open-ended as well. Which is why it's a shame he wasn't able to explore that any further (than he did in season 6 of TCW) while he had the chance.

All in all, If anything though, I think the Midichlorians help explain things (i.e. Force ghosts) more than hurt. I think in ANH alone, it might even arguably be a bit too fantastical. The Midis help ground it just enough, imo.
One's metaphysical powers based on belief and dedication alone feels more conflated to me than a diaspora of super-talented beings who have an innately stronger connection to the source of that power does. And what better way to determine that connection than through a biological life-form that serves a a conduit between the two worlds, which by nature would be genetic.
Even shamanism tended to run in families.

 

Any amount of hate larger than zero, is more hate than the midichlorians deserve.

They are an awesome concept, they remove nothing from The Force or its mystical aspect, and I actually wish there are multiple references to them in the future of Star Wars.

 

But your interpretation doesn't make any sense even by its own internal logic, as I pointed out. Leia doesn't believe she has any power. So if it's based on belief, why would Luke tell her she does have that power, and tell her this only as a consequence of learning that she's his sister, while highlighting the fact that both he and their father have it? Come on, man.

It wasn't my interpretation as a child. It's what was very obviously being communicated by that scene. The only people I've ever come across who've managed to "interpret" such a straightforward dialogue exchange any differently are a couple anti-prequel OT purists on this forum. Not all interpretations are valid.

 

That can be seen in Buddhism as well. There were certain masters of a temple who had “gifts” that allowed a greater connection to the spiritual realm. Others of the temple could never achieve such abilities no matter how much training was put into it. Even in Christianity there were prophets that see into the future or commune with God.

The problem people have isn’t that such connections to divinity or mysticism is unequal or even hereditary but that it is even explained why. For example in Harry Potter not everyone has the abilities for magic and it is also seen as hereditary. That in of itself doesn’t remove the mysticism of magic. But if JK Rowling were to explain a biological reason for such disparities some people would feel that removes such mysticism. For those people the mysteries of the universe no longer become interesting when they are no longer mysterious.

Having said that, sometimes the more we know about something the more questions and mysteries it brings. For example the concepts of thought, consciousness, imagination, dreams and love for humanity are rooted in our brain and the neuronal cells within. Such beautiful and magical concepts seem demystified when seen in such a cold and biological way. A person’s soul should be independent of such crude matter. And yet when the brain becomes damaged that same person may change and become more violent, depressed, angry or lose the ability for thought or imagination. The body and soul are intricately connected.

One can also look at the body in awe and mystery. All these microscopic cells in our body, if they were to choose to work independently of each other without thought or communication this would cause the body to no longer function. Even each individual cell requires an internal partnership with more primitive cells such as the mitochondria. When all the cells in the body work together in perfect symbiotic harmony they create a greater being than each cell on their own. It is a being that can now think, imagine, dream and love. The microscopic cells would never know those concepts or be enlightened to them if they didn’t work together. This greater being they created, they can control and yet he or she also controls them. Somehow there’s something inherently mysterious, mystical, magical and beautiful about that concept. This view doesn’t solve the mysteries of the universe but rather create more questions than it answers.

As individual people perhaps we also exist as part of a greater whole. When we work independently of each other we remain in darkness. If we work together in a symbiotic fashion we suddenly can create this greater being. We are part of that greater being, this larger force of the universe. We control it and it controls us. This greater being gives us insight to views of the universe we would have no knowledge of otherwise. When we start to work in a way that is selfish we become a cancer that puts this being or force out of balance and destroys it.

Here is a quote from Lucas. He is not describing his fictional Force but rather his own view of religion.

 

If it isn’t based on belief, why does Yoda tell Luke he fails at lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp because he doesn’t believe it?

 

Obviously a Force-sensitive person's relative facility with the Force, compared to their own baseline skill level, is based on belief. No one disagrees with that. That isn't the argument we're having. So let's get back to the argument.

The argument was whether a person's inherent ability with the Force is based on heredity. You say it isn't, and Luke was simply telling Leia that she has the same power that he and their father have solely because of the strength of her belief. But it is never shown that Leia's belief in the Force is greater than that of General Dodonna or Admiral Ackbar or any other person we hear professing a belief in the Force. Leia herself does not believe she has the same power Luke has. So why would Luke tell her, specifically, that she currently possesses the same power he has, if she does not currently possess the same belief that he does? And why would he only tell her this after discovering that she is his sister? And why would he do it in the specific context of comparing the power she possesses to the power that two of her blood relatives possess?

Now, obviously, all these oddities and incongruities are immediately and totally resolved by realizing that Luke is talking about a hereditary power in the Force, which is of course (as even you surely must admit) the intention with which the scene was written.

It makes no sense to criticize the prequels for abiding by a fact which was established in the OT. Even if you insist on your nonsensical interpretation of that scene, it was obviously Lucas's intention for that scene to be about heredity, and whether you like it or not that's the way most people understood the scene from the day the movie was first released, because there's nothing ambiguous about the way it's written. You're essentially criticizing the prequels for not abiding by your own idiosyncratic interpretation of a scene which was objectively written with the intention of communicating exactly what was later communicated in the prequels: the Force is hereditary.

Nothing about this is fair. You can't criticize the prequels for this and not criticize ROTJ. You're trying really hard to have it both ways so that you don't have to admit the OT possesses what you consider to be a lore-destroying flaw, but you can't have it both ways. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But just be consistent.

 

Because in the context of the OT, it was implied that anybody could become a Jedi. It wasn't confined to just three or four people of a particular bloodline. Luke could have delivered that line to Han and it would still have made sense.

"Han, if I don't make it back, you're the only hope for the Alliance"
"Don't talk that way kid, you have some power I don't understand, and could never have"
"You're wrong, you have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it as I have"

Han didn't believe in the Force. Hell, Luke didn't even believe it and thus kept failing at it. There is nothing in the OT to suggest that only certain people are able to do this, and most of them must be related to Luke Skywalker. So therefore, I can make the interpretation that Luke's revelation to Leia was a more abstract, spiritual, fantasy-based idea, and that she would ultimately be able to do it if she were only to believe in it.

I know that you don't much care for the Sequel Trilogy, but there was quite a clever bit of marketing I thought when the line "You have that power too" was re-used for the trailer of The Force Awakens.

It was meta and it was very corporate, but at the same time I felt that it was neat because it was Luke speaking to the audience, once again tapping into the idea that we were a part of this ride and could "use the Force" too.

It is that level of non-prescription that I liked about the OT approach to the Force. The prequel trilogy de-mystified it for me.

 

No one is pushing for "equal talent" in the Force. What is being advocated for is what was established when the Force was first discussed - that anyone has the potential to use it. That says nothing about everyone using it equally well. I even specifically stated that some Force users are more skilled than others. I had no doubt, even as a child, that Yoda was special even amongst Jedi. But I never attributed it to anything biological. With Midichlorians - you have to. Obi-Wan even acts astonished that Anakin has more midichlorians than Yoda - implying that Yoda had the highest count (or one of the highest) during TPM. However, almost nothing in the OT meshes with that. Yoda even dismisses the biological when saying "Look at me. Judge me by my size do you?" or his "Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter." speech. That is inherently a spiritual philosophy in terms of where his power comes from and his ability to manipulate said power. In other words - complete and total separation from the physical. Midichlorians are...wait for it....crude matter.

This is not about not understanding Eastern philosophies or shamanistic practices, or hating the PT, or not being able to separate the Force from Midichlorians. Ultimately, this is about what was established in the OT regarding the Force. Outside of a vague line with Luke and Leia and cliff notes from Lucas - very little about this concept was utilized in the OT. So of course it's jarring when all of a sudden this becomes a focal point in the first PT film.

This isn't a PT vs. OT argument. This same thing would happen in any other franchise. If J.R.R. Tolkien explained that microbes is what allows the Wizards of Middle Earth to utilize magic - there would be a backlash. If G.R.R. Martin explained that microbes is what gave the Red priests their ability to use magic - there would be a backlash. If C.S. Lewis explained that microbes is what gave Aslan his power - there would be a backlash. The Harry Potter universe does have a genetic component to it. However, Rowling established this concept from the first book - Lucas did not establish this in ANH or anywhere in the OT outside of some vague line between Luke and Leia.

What should be asked is this: would Midichlorians be hated if they had been firmly (or even quickly) established in the OT? The same lines Qui-Gon had to Anakin in TPM but instead going to Guiness' Obi-Wan to Luke in ANH or Yoda to Luke in ESB. I don't really know the answer to that. At the very least - I don't think there would be this confusion over it after this concept suddenly became vital to a main character and how we look at the Force in this franchise.

 

^ Excellent post.

 

The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it and... My sister has it.

Force potency has always been tied to genetics in Star Wars. There's really no rational reason for Obi and Yoda to be waiting around for Luke and Leia to have a force-awakening, if they didn't believe that genetics played a factor. Yes, anyone can become a Jedi, but certain individuals are endowed with more inherent force potential than others. The Prequels simply gave it a name, but it's the logical conclusion of what is portrayed in the OT.

 

I'm not saying it's entirely logical, because I recognize it isn't... but I think it's the blunt, almost technological element that makes it off-putting for some.

To me analogies to things like musical or artistic talents apply, or even sports-specific talents. Its not unknown for any of these things to "run in families" - and yet, of course, some artistic or musical geniuses, or sports superstars, emerge from families that have no other exceptional cases.

Where I think it chafes some is with the suggestion that there's a moral or philosophical element to the Force that doesn't apply to the other talents. In other words, the Jedi and Sith weren't portrayed as "X-Men" in robes. Morality seems part of this, and wisdom, knowledge, etc. Yoda never seemed like "just" the most powerful telekinetic, etc. He was Yoda because of more than his ability to "Force lift x pounds". When this gets reduced to a count of some physical trait... got X midichlorians? You are one with the Force. You don't? Too bad... for some of us, it cheapens the concept, makes it less special. It's almost like saying there's an energy field that guides the Universe in positive directions, but unless you hit the genetic lottery, you're left out.

If the Jedi or Sith ARE basically the X-Men, that can work... it's worked for the X-Men after all. Its just that the original trilogy seemed to promise more.

 

Midichlorians have never been anything more than a small piece of a much bigger puzzle. If the force was reduced to some biological trait than I could understand why some people have a problem with it but that's not the case. Otherwise those tiny organisms that live inside you wouldn't be able to speak with you nor would you require years of training to understand what they are saying. They are merely a gateway between living beings and this mystic "force" that allows people to do incredible things they normally wouldn't be able to while also providing a way to estimate somebody's potential. Everybody has them yet not everybody has enough to intentionally do something with them.

 

I think that you are spot on. The concept in the original trilogy seemed to be something that opened its arms to everybody in the audience and invited them to participate, because of its universal potential. That, I believe was a massive, massive part of why Star Wars was so successful. Not only was it a fun movie, but it gave movie-goers something to play with as well. With the Force, here was a new meme, a new way to play jokes on your friends, a new topic of conversation, a new way to break the ice, a new way to imagine, "What if...?"

Magic, in other words.

The PT then kind of runs roughshod on that and devolves the idea to some rather boring and trite Star Trek type thing, which was sure to alienate many people.

George comes across as a bit of a nerd when it comes to techy stuff, so you can see why he probably thought it was a great idea to add it all in.

Sometimes its better to just stand back and leave. well. alone. What you omit can be just as powerful an effect to the end product as what you add in.

(I can see a certain poster rushing to berate me now for invoking Lucas' name)

 

I have made this comment before,

If midis is the connection between living beings and the Force and that is what allows livings beings to tap into the Force.
How can there be Force-Ghosts?
They are dead, they have no living bodies and thus no midis.
So where do their Force connection come from?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Well density and mass are not the same thing. A neutron star is the size of East Lansing in Michigan, and can have a mass equal to 3 times the mass of our sun. A cubic meter of gold "weighs" 19 tons. A cubic meter of air weighs a little less than 3lbs or 1.27 kilograms. Yoda can have more midichlorians than any other Jedi (which he does) and for all we know he could be the size of a Kowakian monkey lizard.

His quote about luminous matter is most definitely not a complete separation between physical and spiritual. Besides, even in the real world, we use the word spiritual for everything that we cannot explain. His quote does not mean that the stuff we are made of is crude matter. Instead it is used to open Luke's mind, and explain to him that since he is strong in the Force, he can lift that X-Wing even if has fewer midichlorians in his body. The only thing Luke needs to do is to focus, connect with his midichlorians and then lift the X-Wing through that connection to the Force, forgetting about his physical matter, aka everything not-midichlorians. The midichlorians are living organisms anyway, so whatever the word
spiritual" means for you, they also contain it, like other living organisms.

The thing is, that there is nothing in the PT that cancels anything said in the OT. It only adds to it. People have the right to dislike this addition of course, but I personally don't see a reason to. It is a beautiful addition to the saga, it provides a better understanding (and cooler in my opinion) of The Force, and it doesn't really prohibit anyone from using The Force, it just explains that some people have a higher natural affinity for using it than others. Pretty much like how everything is in the real world anyway.

Star Wars is not LOTR. There is a reason I like Star Wars 1000 times better than LOTR. Magic is cool and all, but The Force is way cooler, and even since the first movie we are dealing with science fiction, not plain fantasy. Star Wars has fantasy elements, but its core is so much more than that. That vague line by Luke and Leia is more than enough in my book, but even if it wasn't there, it doesn't change the mystical aspect of The Force anyway. After the PT we know more about the Force, but there is still so much more we don't know.

And quite honestly, I find this life that we all live in a lot more magical if I actually know more about how stuff works. It is very magical for me to understand how the electromagnetic force works, how the nuclear forces work, how gravity works etc, instead of having an arbitrary "well, it's The Force, don't worry about it" explanation that works for anything and everything. The midichlorians make the Force much more awe inspiring for me. Especially since they don't really negate anything established in the OT.

I think what should really be asked is "do people really need to hate the midichlorians just because it wasn't what they thought the Force was, even though it was never explicitly stated otherwise anyway?". There is no confusion for me, and there has never been. I saw The Phantom Menace in 1999, the thing about the midichlorians seemed very cool to me, and I just kept watching this movie and didn't really think about it any more.

 

I didn't say that that his size has anything to do with his Midichlorian count, though.... So I'm not sure the relevance here. If you're responding to my quote of Yoda's "Size matters not..." - the point is that this has nothing to do with physical. Luke comments that he can't do it because of the size of the X-Wing, but Yoda is telling him that means nothing. That someone as small as him can do it because it isn't about size or anything on a physical plane of existence. It's about the Force being a "powerful ally" and these physical limitations are only in his mind.

Sorry, but it is. He is literally telling Luke they are not really physical beings. That they are more than that and until Luke realizes that - he'll continue to fail.

Yes, it literally does mean that. He even touches Luke's arm when he says "...not this crude matter."



He is highlighting that the physical is meaningless. Which does not mesh well with the idea of Midichlorians that state it DOES have importance on using the Force. So either the physical has relevance or it does not.

Considering this concept did not exist in the OT... I highly doubt that Yoda was trying to teach Luke about Midichlorians. He was teaching him the limitations were in his mind and had no bearing with the Force. That's it. Everything else is just retconning to connect with a trilogy of films that came into being 16 years later.

Spiritual, in this context, is beyond the physical world. That's how I mean it when used in this conversation.

Me and several other posters have already given examples on how there is a conflict with the depiction of the Force in the OT and the concept of Midichlorians. Plus, I'm not saying that it "cancels" everything stated in the OT. Just that it leads to a litany of discrepancies.

I'm fine with people having a higher affinity for the Force. I mentioned that in my last post ... that isn't the problem with Midichlorians (for me).

I didn't say Star Wars is LOTR, but it is far closer to fantasy settings than the typical sci-fi of other series. I would argue that Star Wars is science-fantasy and is closer to LOTR than Star Trek. But that wasn't even the point I was making.

I was highlighting that magic systems in various franchises should be well established and would also suffer this scrutiny if they suddenly took a magic system or an element to it and gave it this very uninspired explanation to it.

I don't think the Midichlorians ruin the mystical aspect of the Force (at least not completely). I understand the two are separate concepts. I just dislike it because A) the OT doesn't mention it and B) it was brought to life because Lucas wanted some way to display Anakin as being uniquely unique amongst Jedi.

I do agree with other posters that it ruins the magic of anyone being able to wield it.

And clearly "everyone" can't use the Force as people are saying. Otherwise, the Jedi Order wouldn't need to find people who have the mutant gene. It can't be said in one breath that there is a reason why Han Solo or Tarkin were never trained in the Force, because they don't have enough Midichlorians to use the Force AND then in the next breath say "This doesn't change anything in the Force. Everyone has Midichlorians."

What's the point of everyone having it if he wanted to go down the mutant gene route?

Well, this is a bit of a strawman as I never said I don't want to explore the Force and to leave it at that. In one of my posts above, I even said I enjoy exploring the magical systems in fiction. So exploring the Force isn't an issue for me.

It's just this concept is poorly executed and does not connect well to the OT outside of a singular vague line from Luke. There is a reason that this appears to be the go-to example everyone has to disapprove that Midichlorians weren't a thing in the OT...

It didn't need to explicitly state otherwise. The concept of the Force was established in three films and literally nothing, outside of the vague line that some support, hints at this concept. For some odd reason - Yoda and Obi-Wan felt it was unimportant to tell Luke that Anakin was a Jedi messiah who was the product of a non-natural birth via Midichlorians. Seems like ... something .... beyond being a tiny detail.

This isn't about any type of disappointment or bitterness that I thought I had the Force all figured out but then Lucas just swept the rug from under me. This is about a poor concept. You like it. Others like it. Ok - fine. I'm just answering why I think others hate it ... at least from my point of view.

 

The line isn't vague though. "The Force is strong in my family..." how could the Force be strong in a family if there was no genetic or hereditary component? If that were the case then it would make no sense for Obi-Wan to wait for Luke when he could've been training anyone else. "You have that power too...", you could say he could have said it to Han but there is obviously a reason he's saying that to Leia, because she's his sister, and the Force has a genetic component. The interpretation that anyone could use the Force in the OT is simply at odds with what is portrayed on screen.

 

The midi-chlorian concept doesn't deserve any hate whatsoever, so if it gets any at all, then yes.

 

It really is no coincidence that on the one hand people argue the OT clearly hinted at Midichlorians ... and a single line from Luke is all that can be brought up. Very telling.

The line is vague because absolutely no one in 1983 thought Luke meant Midichlorians (or some version therein). At best, you could say he meant his family was more in tune with the Force (which could be explained outside of Midi) than the average person but not everyone thought he was talking about some Star Wars version of the mutant gene. This is retconning to fit TPM. Which is ok because TPM is canon and we know this wonderful idea is part of the Force idea now. Yes, NOW we can say that Luke means Midichlorians but he certainly didn't mean it in 1983.

Obi-Wan waited on Luke, not because of his incredibly high Midichlorian count or whatever, but because he felt a responsibility to Luke from his connection to Anakin. Considering that part of Obi-Wan feels responsible for Anakin's fall - he felt an obligation to watch over Luke. While he did want to train Luke, Owen would not allow it. If Owen and Beru never died and Luke stayed on the moisture farm (or went off to a flight academy) - Obi-Wan would have died of old age watching over Luke. He never would have trained Luke. So if your theory is that Obi-Wan only watched over Luke for the sole purposes of training him - then it makes Obi-Wan look like an idiot because as far as he knew ... Owen and Beru were never going to allow it and Luke's aspirations were in the direction of being a pilot. In fact, when Obi-Wan finally told him about the Force and gifted him Anakin's lightsaber, Luke declines going to Alderaan and learning the ways of the Force and leaves to go back home. The only reason his destiny set in was because "There's nothing left for me here." after all he knew was burned.

So this theory that Obi-Wan was waiting on Luke for the sole purposes of creating a new Jedi doesn't work well at all. If Obi-Wan neglected Luke to train some pirate he found at Mos Eisley, that would render the years watching over Luke to ensure his safety an absolute waste.