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PT Do you think there could be a moral way to create a clone army?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by IG Lancer, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    I, like many other people, think that creating short-lived, deeply indoctrinated slave soldiers whose only purpose is to fight their owner's wars is deeply immoral...

    But I wonder... among the hundreds of alien species created for novels, series and games, is there any species of innate natural soldiers whose only purpose in life is to fight, not because of some external manipulation or because of their culture, but because that is just what they are?

    If there is a species like that... do you think it would have been okay to use them as template for a clone army?
     
  2. clone commander bossk

    clone commander bossk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2019
    Trandoshans maybe?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I don't think there could be a sentient species where every single one of them would naturally want to be soldiers and who would feel that their only purpose in life is to fight. I think every sentient species would feel that family and friendships are important, not just fighting, and fighting on an instinctual level is usually only done for the survival of oneself or family. It is really only at the cultural or economic level that we see sentient species deciding to wage outright war against one another. Moreover, I don't believe that there is a sentient species that wouldn't have some capacity for free choice and free will where at least some of the beings in question would choose another life beside that of a solider if given the opportunity.

    So, for me, there is no moral way of making a clone army: of creating sentient species for the sole purpose of training them for warfare and using them as what amounts to canon fodder without their consent and without giving them the choice to pursue any other path. That to me is inherently immoral and almost dystopian. The Kamino scenes in AOTC give me a very Brave New World vibe.
     
  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    If you found a species that shares a hive mind it would be moral because anyone of them agreeing to be cloned would mean all of them agree. And once the clones were born/hatched/whatever, the new clone would immediately be okay with having been cloned and sent off to war because of the hive mind.
     
    clone commander bossk likes this.
  5. CampOfSorgan

    CampOfSorgan Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2020
    To create an army of clones with their own personalities and Individual consciousnesses, and to give them no other choice in their life but to fight, is immoral. I don’t think there’s really any way around it.

    The fact that the Republic and the Jedi went along with it in the prequels illustrates how desperate things were getting and how clouded the judgment of the Order was getting. In my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Clone armies are essentially organic droid armies or slave armies. Ideally war and military service should be voluntary(or the cause should itself justify conscription).

    The whole war was a one sided chess game. That isn't to say things were bad, but the conflict would not have happened without the Sith and Palpatine.
     
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  7. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Even Ancient Sparta would balk at the concept of forcing a whole race to think nothing of battle. Sure they glorified battle in their mythologies, but they also believed in free will. There’s a difference between ‘a culture that decides for themselves to have pride in combat prowess’ vs. ‘a culture forced to fight for someone else regardless of personal choice’

    For the Clones, I think it’s evident they didn’t have a hive mind. Wasn’t there an episode in The Clone Wars where one of them told Mundi, “We’re clones, sir. We’re meant to be disposable.” They don’t have a choice, and they know it.
     
  8. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2017
    I suppose that any species whose sole purpose was warfare would have wiped themselves out pretty quickly. So, I don’t think that such a species would have existed to be used as a template.

    Even if such a species did exist, it would still have been immoral to use them in this way. I say this because they would have been manipulated to fight and die for the purpose of an alien government. Although the species would be fulfilling a natural urge, their natural behaviours would be directed and exploited by outside influences.

    Regarding the clones, although I do agree that the Kaminoans were immoral in their creation of the clone army, I can imagine how they justified it to themselves. Without the Kaminoans, the clones would never have existed. The Kaminoans were given the genetic template and funds to create the clones for the sole purpose of creating an army. Therefore, in order to exist, the clones had to be part of the army.

    The Kaminoans may have argued that it was better that the clones were given life and a purpose (regardless of how short and violent those lives were) than to have never existed at all.
     
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  9. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    This is a difficult question, but my instinct is that the answer is no, there was no moral way to create the clone army. In the specific instance of the Grand Army of The Republic (the clone army we actually got), you have to consider that they were indoctrinated for the purpose of carrying out Order 66. They were always designed to answer to a single, unaccountable autocrat, rather than a set of ideals or moral code. Now, even if you made them without the behavior inhibitor chips, they were still being designed to take orders from an elite leadership within the Republic. The whole point of creating a clone army is that they will not think for themselves, they will have perfect, monolithic loyalty. That doesn't always play out according to plan, but it's the objective. Otherwise, the Republic might as well have just raised a traditional army with its own officer corp and military code of justice.

    But with all the fantastic science-fiction possibilities in Star Wars, maybe there could be a way to do it morally, idk. I thought this scene from the end of Clone Wars was especially moving, really capped off the journey of the clones and the moral dilemma at the heart of the issue. Fittingly, neither Rex nor Ahsoka have a definitive answer to the question:

     
  10. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    The Republic could have sidestepped this whole morality issue if they had just used battle droids themselves. This is why I dislike battle droids...once you establish that your fictional sci-fi civilization has the technology to replace organic soldiers with battle robots, there's absolutely no reason not to use them.
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The benefit of clones over droids is apparently, that they can "think creatively".
     
  12. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Yeah I know Lama Su says that in AOTC, but I don't see how that outweighs the fact that droid production vastly outstrips clone production. I'm pretty sure that factory on Geonosis can assemble a droid in a few hours...maybe a day at the longest? Meanwhile it takes something like ten years to grow a clone. Droid factories can be set up on hundreds of worlds, while there's only one Kamino (which is covered entirely by water btw). From what we've seen in the movies, video games, and TCW, I'm sure 10-20 battle droids can defeat one clone trooper, and if I'm correct then it takes far less time and resources to build those droids.

    Getting back to the morality issue. Why send organic beings to fight, even if they're artificially cloned, only to watch the horror of them getting incinerated and blasted to pieces on the battlefield? The only possible justification would be if those clones were vastly superior to droids...but if they aren't, then why? Even if droids were only about 80% as effective as clones, I would say there's still a strong case in favor of droids.
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think it's safe to say that the real reason for the production of clones was that Palpatine wanted them there, behind every Jedi commander, to carry out Order 66.

    Which was probably why he stopped production of new clones after the war - because Kamino clones aren't cost-effective.
     
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  14. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Well...Order 66 would be even easier to carry out if it were done by droids. Inserting that into their programming would be infinitely simpler than designing that weird organic brain chip.
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe - but both sides having huge armies of droids would kind of have given the game away.