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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Does Everyone Become A Force Ghost?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by ObiWanKnowsMe, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    ANAKIN: Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love.
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Great. Compassion is wonderful.

    Anakin defines it as unconditional love. Killing someone in self defence is not the definition of loving them unconditionally in any sane person's book, So it cannot qualify as compassion in Anakin's book (if Anakin is sane).

    Aren't those words of Anakin's his attempt at justification to himself for getting into a relationship with Padme. A way of making the Jedi code work for him, in this instance. And that the attachment that comes from it is against the Jedi code and indication of his selfishness and greed? That's what I'm constantly told around here anyway.

    And if Anakin's ghost appearance is a reward for his newfound compassion, why is that he looks the way he does when he was least selfless or compassionate?
     
  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    So now Anakin decides who is or isn't a Force ghost? Anakin didn't even know about Force ghosts.


    You are missing the point. If a condition must be met to become a Force ghost, then someone or something must make that condition. Who or what, if not the Force, makes these conditions, and then grants the state of becoming a Force ghost?
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Misread your comment. Meant that Anakin is the one who met the condition.

    The technique itself has that condition. Just like you must be calm in order to meditate. Not pretending to be calm.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    If you are pretending to be calm, then it is because you are pretending that you are not meditating. Not because you are not calm.

    You can begin meditating before you are completely calm. as long as you are not doing, or pretending to do anything else.


    Calmness and meditation go hand in hand. Calmness is not a precondition of meditation though.
     
  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Where did the condition come from?
     
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    If you are pretending to be calm, then you're not calm. Otherwise there wouldn't be pretense to begin with.

    In order to meditate, you need to be calm. You can't meditate without being calm.

    How exactly does one meditate without calmness?

    ?!?

    From the technique itself.
     
  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002


    The "technique" is simply something one does to attain the state of retaining one's identity in the Force, unless you telling me that you believe the technique to retaining one's identity in the Force exists independently from the Force, itself. That, basically, any non-Force user can retain their identity in the Force as long as they know the technique and are selfless?

    If there is a condition that must be met to retain one's identity, then something must have 1) created that condition, and 2) be monitoring the technique to insure that the condition is met. Who or what, do you think, is monitoring the technique to insure that it is done correctly, and with selfless intent? Who, or what, judges the intent of the user to determine their level of selflessness to insure the condition is met?
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader wants Luke to join him, but he did say that he will die if he refuses. He says it to Palpatine and warns Luke to not make him kill him. And he even threw his Lightsaber at him in a lethal manner, which doesn't connect because Luke ducks out of the way. He threatens Leia in order to provoke a response out of him, the same way that Dooku nearly killing Obi-wan provoked a response out of himself. Luke does feel the conflict within him between the light and the dark, that is true. But Vader is still resisting the pull of the light because the dark is strong and he cannot bring himself away from it. Not until Luke spares his life.


    Partially, but he would have turned back if Obi-wan had shown it to him on Mustafar. Same with Ahsoka on Malachor. A Jedi is supposed to show compassion for all their enemies, regardless of relation.

    Because he's not supposed to kill a helpless person. Being his father was only part of it. Not all of it.

    Yes, that is true.

    And that only happens because Luke won't kill him, because he couldn't stop himself from killing Dooku. You have to remember that the journey of the Skywalker men is supposed to be a reflection of the other. Anakin makes the mistakes and Luke chooses to not make the same mistakes. When Luke spares him, that is where the cycle is broken. It's not just being a father, it's being a Jedi.


    It's bearing is limited because the broader picture is that the son becomes the Jedi that the father should have been.


    His motivations are what matters. He was wanting to save Padme was because he couldn't accept being alone. He couldn't accept failure. He thought that he needed power to protect his loved ones. He even says that "love won't save you, only my new powers can." In the end, it is love that saves Luke, not his power. He saves Luke because it is the right thing to do, not the selfish thing to do.


    Being selfless means that when you die, you retain your identity. Anakin's appearance is based on where he was before he turned evil, which is frozen at the point where he was still good. When he pledged himself to the dark side, he lost his soul. His soul died, or whatever. His physical self when he dies fades away and is altered to who he was before he turned evil. Obi-wan and Yoda appear as they do, because they did not turn evil and thus their appearance is where they were when they died.

    When Obi-wan sliced Maul in two on Naboo, he had let go of the dark side within him that emerged when Maul ran Qui-go through. Because Obi-wan let go of his emotions, he became a Knight. That's why you hear the Force theme when he's reaching out to Qui-gon's saber and is summoning the Force. It isn't to kill Maul in anger, but to prepare himself for a difficult maneuver. When Obi-wan finally kills Maul permanently on Tatooine, he has the same determined look, but he does it as a last resort, because Maul won't back down and he has no choice but to kill him. And he shows him compassion as he's dying, much like he did with Qui-gon years earlier.

    It means that there is no fear, no anger and no hate within a Jedi's heart when they kill. Much less when they fight. They are at peace with themselves when they fight. They try to avoid killing and if it cannot be avoided, they must not surrender to the dark side to take a life. When Anakin had Dooku at his mercy...

    [​IMG]

    The compassionate thing to do was to shut down the Lightsabers and arrest Dooku. But he doesn't and instead kills him, because of all the pain and suffering that he's caused these last three years.

    [​IMG]

    When Kanan had defeated the Grand Inquisitor, he had the opportunity to kill him in cold blood, but instead he shuts down his Lightsabers and it is the Inquisitor who takes his own life. But Kanan offers compassion in that moment.

    [​IMG]

    When Luke spares Vader, he does so because as in the other two cases, his opponent is helpless. Luke shows compassion for him, not just because he is his father, but because it is the right thing to do. He cannot bring himself to hate him, just as Kanan couldn't bring himself to hate the Inquisitor.

    The first part is wrong. That is the way of all Jedi. Unconditional love is essential to being a Jedi. It is compassion. That is why Palpatine states that it is the weakness of all Jedi.

    PALPATINE: "His compassion for you will be his undoing."

    Luke comes to Vader because he has unconditional love for his father. He is showing him compassion by reaching out to him, instead of reaching for his Lightsaber. Obi-wan came to Mustafar to kill him, because it was his duty as a Jedi to destroy the Sith. He tries to reach out to him, but he has trouble showing complete compassion towards him, which is why he fights him. But he hesitates as within ROTS, there was an exchange that was cut.

    OBI-WAN: "The flaw of power is arrogance."

    ANAKIN: "You hesitate...the flaw of compassion."

    That's why the duel lasts as long as it does, because he doesn't want to kill him, but knows that he has to and that is why he holds off for as long as possible, until he is given no other choice. The difference comes when Anakin is injured and he does not try to help him. He does not show him compassion by striking him down and in his view, Obi-wan was a bastard for abandoning him. But Luke doesn't abandon him and it is because he shows him compassion. He doesn't care that he killed Jedi. He doesn't care that he killed Imperials. He doesn't care that he tortured Han and Leia. He just cares about him and cannot bring himself to kill him. Obi-wan had cared about the Jedi that he had killed and that he attacked Padme. He cared that he turned to the dark side and now needed to be eliminated. Obi-wan didn't hate him, but he had trouble caring for him now.
     
  10. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Indeed, He did save his son, but he didn't act solely to save his son,

    There's always this good in you. The good part is saying, "What am I doing?" and the bad part is "I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for us, it'll be better for the universe, it'll be better for everybody." But there's always this little part of you saying, "What am I doing?" - George Lucas, Chosen One Documentary

    Anakin was convinced that Palpatine's way was better for everyone in the PT, and finally realized that Palpatine had to be destroyed in order to save everyone, which happened to include Luke.
     
  11. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    Yes it is.

    I absolutely do not have the energy to patiently write a long post on the subject right now, as I have in the past, but I want to point out that Star Wars - and Lucas has talked about this at length - is referring to Buddhist concepts which have extremely specific and mutually exclusive meanings which many other websites on the internet have discussed at length. If you are saying things like "Through their attachment, Vader was able to make an uncharacteristically compassionate gesture" or "Anakin's attachment and unconditional love for Padme" you're basically saying matter is the same thing as antimatter.

    Or, in short,

    [​IMG]

    It's not even similar.
     
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Attachment is not the antithesis of compassion. They are not the same, of course. But they are not direct opposites of each other, in case you are unsure what antithesis means.

    Even Lucas himself claims that a parent's attachment to their child teaches them compassion (which is not the full story, since it means that anyone without a child hasn't learned compassion) , this is the basis for people explaining how the father/son thing is fine while the husband/wife thing was verboten . So how could it be possible that attachment can teach someone compassion and the two things co-exist happily, if the two things are the direct opposite?


    I think the problem people are making for themselves is that, sometimes, some attachments are formed and sustained on questionable bases. The is certainly true for Anakin's case, but it is not a universal fact. The natural paternal instinct of attachment to a child, or the mother of their unborn child, (especially if one has a premonition of their agonising death in the same way that their mother died) is completely normal. As is the desire to form an attachment with and share your life with another, with a mate.

    It's stress and emotional trauma, challenging or troubled development, that makes following these impulses a problem for some people. The same goes for compassion. Compassion is a virtue that is nurtured as much as it is in someone's nature. The complexion of that compassion affected by one's circumstances. It is not an objective commodity, i.e. one has compassion or one has not.

    The strength of one's attachment to a lover or a child can remind one of the goodness in sharing sympathy, pity or concern for others that we are not attached to, but in the right/wrong circumstances, one's attachment can be overpowering the the extent that we are unable to extend those feelings to a stranger, or our perception of the challenges to that attachment causes one to do the opposite of extending compassion to others.

    The latter scenario is what affects Anakin. The attachment he has grown with Padme, in the wake of the traumatic ordeal of his mother's demise, is so important to him and his wellbeing, he believes, that his devotion to the larger world is skewed and distorted to the point that he will consider just about any cost (though not rationally) in order to preserve that attachment.

    Anakin didn't want the same thing happening with Padme that happened with his mother. It wasn't about possessing anything, it was about not going through the same pain that went with losing his mother and which he thought his training and his special status should enable him to prevent. His desperation at the certainties laid before him led him down a very misguided path,

    Anakin is not really depicted as being convinced by anything that Palpatine wants. He convinces himself that he can use the power of this Sith lord, which he believes is being denied him by the Jedi. The way that he immediately acquiesces to Palpatine's description of the real danger to galaxy makes Anakin out to be either extremely suggestible, or that he has simply cracked up. Especially since he expressed genuine regret and ambivalence at the killing of Dooku and Windu.

    There's no precedent for Anakin being prepared to consciously kill without compassion and for gain. It's only after Anakin's rash behaviour puts him in a compromised position that he becomes susceptible to equating the indulgence of his piqued emotions of anger, fear and some latent resentment. Then waltzes off to murder his younger jedi brothers and sisters.

    I guess in Lucas's eyes, being a father teaches one compassion. Being an expectant father teaches one to be a power greedy murderer of children.
     
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    accidental dp
     
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
     
  15. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    It was actually a wide variety of things that he was worried about:

    In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Replublic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with. - George Lucas - from the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.

    But what linked all these elements together was having the power to make everything better. That was the lure of the Dark Side. When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems become nails.

    It happens once the Emperor starts to work on him and he makes him doubt things. Makes him doubt his relationship with the Jedi. Makes him doubt what is good in the universe. He throws out the possibility that he can keep his wife and save her from death. These are all seduction things, which causes a great deal of turmoil in Anakin. This is where he actually succombs to the influence of the Devil. - George Lucas

    Yes, that's exactly what Lucas intended. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Desire to make things better. To make things safer is not an indication of selfishness or lack of selflessness.

    I'm sure all those other things were the concern of all the Jedi. Anakin is not lured by the darkside until he's told, explicitly, that it is the only way to save Padme from the certain, agonising death he keeps previsualising, and about which the Jedi have only offered the advice that he must train himself to accept the painful death he has already seen and which clearly disturbs him.

    Well that's what people are trying to convince me of, with the way that Anakin's desperation to save Padme and his unborn child is an indication of his selfishness, but Vader's desperation to save Luke is indication of his rediscovery of selflessness.

    The presumption seems to be that for Vader to come back from the dark side then his motivation has to be the opposite from when became a servant of evil. This is not the case.

    The true transformation, or reformation, lies in Vader being similarly motivated, but rejecting that which tied him to the ruling ideology he became a part of, and which he believes sustains him - i.e. acting out of anger, hatred etc.
     
  17. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    Or it is exposition on the values of the Jedi. The Jedi value compassion which in Star Wars is equal to unconditional love for everybody, not attachment. They should love everyone no matter what are their relationships and they do not seek revenge. They learn to let go.

    About Anakin's attachment issues.
    "This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

    "It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

    "But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."


    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."



    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    No. In the film it's definitely Anakin speculatively laying the groundwork for defying the Jedi, by compartmentalising the concepts of love and compassion at odds with what he knows is proscribe and prohibited, emboldened by Padme's overtures about attachment, which Anakin makes a sad face about when the topic comes up. This response is his way of keeping her interested, in spite of the established rules on attachments.

    " Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love "

    He's not cheerleading for the Jedi order or the code here. He's creating excuses, in the context of that code, for what he feels impelled to do with Padme. He's not talking about compassion. He's re-interpreting compassion to include his romantic chances with Padme.

    Anakin's fall to the darkside is defined and made inevitable by his selfish disregard for the Jedi code (devotion to which equates to selflessness), I am told here on a daily basis.

    George Lucas talks about Anakin not letting go of the inevitable, but fails to recognise the extraordinary circumstances of a boy leaving his mother behind in slavery because he is a prophesied chosen hero and that it is being propelled on that lifestyle and developing special powers, including the ability to foresee the ordeal that his mother is going through, but is detained from repaying her selflessness by rescuing her that creates the tension. Not exactly ordinary, even for a Jedi.

    That's not a very representative or relatable context for depicting the perils of not being able to "let go". If resonable efforts were made to allow Anakin, and other child jedi, to maintain a healthy relationship with their parents, but fate was to curtail it prematurely, and then Anakin was shown to be unwilling or unable to let go, then it might have been more convincing.
     
  19. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    If he sold his soul to the devil just to save that one person from death because of his fear of loss then that is not compassionate love, but possessive love and greed. The loss of his mother fueled his desire to "become more powerful than every Jedi", the roots are there.

    "The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things, in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the dark side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion—of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides—the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 1999.

    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.
     
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  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I'm not in any way shape of form endorsing or excusing making a deal with the devil or any of Anakin's actions. So I don't know why that needs to be explained or highlighted. I can't see how you could even get that impression. Where did I say that it was compassionate of Anakin to make a deal with the devil?

    Have I not stated that Anakin's actions are desperate and rash, and made in the context of intensely provoked emotion, and in confusion that's often not of his own making?

    Actions and motives are separate. Anakin's motives did not necessitate his actions .Hus motives are not even extraordinary. Nor are they the kinds of motives that are ordinarily questionable. So his motives are not the problem. (Wouldn't you go through some anxiety and want to attempt tor resolve it if you operated in a realm where it seemed or it felt that the power to have prevented things that causes you unhappiness was tantalizingly just out of reach?)

    His actions are the product of a troubled upbringing. Of being too advanced is some areas, but immature and impressionable and vulnerable in others.

    There's no point in repeating George Lucas's intentions any more. I am already familiar with them. It's the movie that's supposed to coherently and relateably convey those intentions within a convincing story that I have issue with. It also doesn't help that he describes Anakin's desire to "freeze a moment in time" as inappropriate when a) he did not depict Anakin as someone wanting to freeze a moment in time, just someone who didn't want what happened to have happened as it did, and b) he's talking about a character who receives involuntary visions of the future. Specifically the occurrence or recurrence of painful and agonizing deaths of his loved ones.
     
  21. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    What? I only argued about his love for Padme not being compassionate love since he grew attached to her like he did his mother's and the fear of losing her led him to basically make a pact with the devil and destroying everything she stood for and eventually led to her death just like the fear of loosing his mother and the anger at loosing her led him to kill the Tuskens in revenge, which is not the Jedi way. The Jedi learn to let go of things because attachment to them can be exploited and make much more damages than for normal people due to their powers like we see with the example of Anakin.
     
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  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016

    But their love didn't start out that way. This was not the inevitable end product of Anakin and Padme becoming attached to one another.

    That fear needn't have lead him to make a pact with the devil. Many people have those fears and they don't go down that path. There more, and far more important factors in Anakin's decision making besides his motives of fear for the lives of those that the force appears to show suffering, in the future, and the natural impulse to protect them.

    Attachment to a loved one does not exclude compassion. External pressures on that attachment can cause one's capacity to act out of compassion for others, if one is preoccupied with preserving that attachment, to become restricted. But that is not an ordinary situation. Most people, almost all of them, don't become less compassionate for others once they and a companion become attached to one another (up until they have a child). And most people don't have the embodiment of evil secretly manipulating them and the whole of society or willfully threatening their attachments either.

    So to say that Anakin's attachment to Padme means he's not compassionate is simply not true. Over the course of extraordinary events and extenuating circumstances, Anakin's capacity to be simply be compassionate as his vocation and potency requires him to be is compromised and dangerously distorted.

    First among those circumstances are the Jedi's failure to teach Anakin to properly protect himself from his own sensitivity (and to train himself how to, as he apparently "must"), starting with his rejection by Yoda, and fast tracking by the rest of the council who are hung up on his supposed chosen one status.
     
  23. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    That desire, in and itself, isn't an indication of selfishness. It's the means by which one attempts to make things better that makes the difference. Killing the Jedi younglings to make the Galaxy a better place shows seriously impaired moral judgement. And keep in mind, Lucas says repeatedly that Anakin always has this little voice in the back of his head that says, "This is wrong", but what scares him the most is what will happen if he doesn't do these things: He will lose the power he believes he needs so desperately. Part of the confusion with Anakin's motivations is that he's never quite honest with himself about what he's doing and why. It's this need for power that fuels everything else he does. "I have to save Padme" or "I could have saved my mom" are really just convenient excuses to help him allay his concerns for his actions (which helps explain why he was so pissed at her for denouncing his actions... In his mind, he's killed the children for her.) Otherwise, Palpatine would have lost him after Padme died. At that point, all Anakin had left was power. Palpatine needed no new bait after that.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "opposite", but I will say that Anakin probably realized a great many things simultaneously, but it essentially boiled down to him making himself a prisoner of his own fears, rather than acting in spite of those fears. Once Like demonstrated this in the face of imminent death, Anakin realized that this is what he should have done long ago.... It just took the love of his son to help him take that one extra step that he would never do for himself.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    For the billionth time, attachment is defined as emotional connections that are too strong to a person. They are based on negative emotions such as fear, anger, hate, jealousy, obsessiveness and possessiveness. Compassion is unconditional love for another person, a willingness to love them, but let them go. One that is not based on the negative emotions. The relationship between Luke and Anakin is one based on compassion. The relationship between Anakin and Padme is based on attachment.

    Anakin does want to possess Padme. He wants to hold on to her and not let her go. Just as he does not want to let go of his mother. That is not accepting that people come and go in your life and that part of that is that they will die. Whether it is naturally, or unnaturally. People die. Everyone dies, one way or another. His reasons for not wanting to go through it again is selfish. You have to accept that people will die in your life. Anakin couldn't accept that. Dying sucks. But it is part of life and Anakin wanted to fight the rule of nature.

    He regrets killing Dooku because he knows that he was wrong, but he acted out of anger and hate and he felt justified in it. He's not cracking up here, he's conflicted because he's been told by Obi-wan that it is wrong, but Palpatine tells him that it was natural and right. Anakin doesn't know for certain what is right and what is wrong. When he expresses regret for Mace's death, it was due to his not wanting him or Palpatine to die. But he acted emotionally and as a result, he realizes that he cannot go back. He must go forward. He already knows that the real danger is the war and the Separatist Council. He also knows that the Jedi would go after Palpatine and him, as well as the Senate. That's why he goes along with taking out the Jedi and the Separatists.

    There was precedence. The Tusken Slaughter was a rash action done without compassion and for personal gain, which was revenge.

    No, what his thinking is that Anakin acted emotionally because he let his emotions dictate his actions. He made bad choices because he operated from a place of fear and greed. When he's confronted by Luke, he sees in him what he should have been. Luke rejects the dark side on Cloud City and he rejects it again when he refuses to kill him. Luke has taught him what it means to be a Jedi and in turn, it teaches him that he should be a better man and should actually be his father.

    He says it midway through the film. And he says it twice, before and after he's cut off Luke's hand.

    VADER: "You are beaten. It is useless to resist. Don't let yourself be destroyed as Obi-wan."

    VADER: "Don't make me destroy you."

    He's pretty clear that he will kill him if he keeps resisting him. He's already killed Ahsoka, who was a good friend to him and he's killed Obi-wan, who was like a father to him. And he's caused the death of his wife. He's not shy about killing his son. He doesn't want to, but he will.

    LUKE: "I will not turn...and you'll before forced to kill me."

    Vader is acknowledging that he will be forced to kill him if he and Palpatine fail to turn him. He is committed to it. That's why he said it and then flung his Lightsaber at him, to show that he means business.

    [​IMG]

    He was aiming for Luke, who ducks out of the way.

    You just repeated in a long winded way what I said.

    In Anakin's view, Obi-wan should have been with him on this. But he knows that his Jedi oath is what is putting them on opposite sides. And so when they fight, Anakin is of the belief that because Obi-wan is a compassionate Jedi and sees him as a son figure, that he will not kill him. Much less inflict pain on him. But when he does, this angers him. He sees it as a betrayal of their relationship. And when he refuses to help him, his only response is that he hates him. He hates him for hurting him and for turning Padme against him. For holding him back and putting him in this situation in the first place.

    I wasn't talking about Vader. I was talking about Luke who refused to kill him, the way that he killed Dooku. And Luke refuses to kill his father, not because of attachment, but because of compassion. If he was motivated by attachment, Vader would be dead and Luke would be a Sith Lord.

    Only because Luke spares him and he spares him not just because he is his father, but because he doesn't hate him. He has let go of his hate and his anger towards him, for the very things that he has done. He feels nothing but unconditional love for him and shows him compassion. He forgives him for his crimes, whereas he couldn't forgive Dooku for his.

    He's not challenging him. He's telling him that if he was Anakin Skywalker, he wouldn't do this, because Anakin Skywalker would never do this. But Vader reminds him that he is the servant to the dark side and it is too late for him to turn back.

    There's more than one concept of attachment and compassion, which is what you fail to understand.

    Because all power has limits. And trying to avoid pain like that, is unhealthy because it leads to this kind of destructive behavior. You have to face the pain and then let go of it. You cannot protect everyone from everything. You have to accept that there are limits on everything. Anakin thinks that because he has power, he should use it. But that is the flaw of power, it breeds arrogance.

    Because it is a distinction in "Star Wars". Anakin doesn't do it because of attachment, but because of compassion. Attachment is that he'd save him so that he could continue to try and turn him. Compassion is thinking of Luke and not himself.

    The Force didn't turn him into that. He made those choices on his own. The dark side of the Force is where the Force twists and corrupts once it is used repeatedly. This comes from Lucas. Anakin is who he is before he turned evil. Obi-wan and Yoda are who they are because they did not fall.

    And that is why he fails, because he chooses not to hold fast and reject his desire for revenge. Both Sith Lords essentially give him permission to use his emotions, which is why he does it. He doesn't listen to himself. His true self. That's why Luke throws down his saber.

    Which is why it is important for a Jedi to maintain control, even in taking a life.

    YODA: "Control, control. You must learn control."

    When a Jedi is in control of his emotions, then and only then, will they be able to function as a Jedi should without turning.

    Except that's how Lucas defines the Jedi way and has been that way for many years.

    I was talking about in ROTJ, not TESB. Luke chooses to show compassion for his father, because he cannot hate him for the choices that he made. He shows unconditional love for his father, not hatred and anger. He forgives him for his crimes. These are the actions of not just a son for a father, but of a Jedi Knight.

    The desire to make things better is a slippery slope. Anakin wants to make things better, but he believes that people should be brought under heel and not guided through a subtle hand. He believes that an Empire is better than a Republic, because it makes choices for others and takes away freedoms. Anakin wants to make things go the way he thinks it should be. His motives are selfish than selfless. Likewise, agonizing on Padme's death is why he falls. He doesn't follow his Jedi training and accept that whatever happens, happens. That he must trust in the Force.

    That is the case. Lucas tells us so.

    "It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It’s only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It’s not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

    "You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the dark side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, “I know there’s still good in you, I can sense it.” Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself."

    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.


    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.




    So, what, is Lucas lying when he says that the Jedi can love their enemies? Read what darklighter99 quoted again. Lucas is telling us that the Jedi define love as unconditional love and compassion. They are encouraged to love. They just cannot form attachments to one person.

    The point isn't maintaining a healthy relationship. The point is preparing yourself mentally to accept that people will die, instead driving yourself into a foaming frenzy about it. He had the tools to deal with loss, he just chose not to follow it. He wanted the quick and easy path to dealing with his problems.

    Yes, it was. Padme only openly declares her love for Anakin because she's afraid that they won't survive what is to come. Anakin only tells her of his feelings in the first place because he's been obsessed with her for ten years and is afraid that she doesn't feel the same way. They choose to marry each other more out of selfish need, than because it was unconditional love.

    It does for Anakin who obsesses over the fear of loss and feels that he needs power to protect her. His power is what drives him to go down that path.

    Actually, it does. He has an attachment to Padme, it is born out of his own feelings and her feelings are not even in consideration. He ignores her when she states that he doesn't need her to protect him. He's doing this for himself and himself alone. Not for her. It is about what he wants and what he needs. His true motivations stand clear when he turns.

    ANAKIN: "I cannot live without her."

    That is the definition of selfishness. For the first time since this started, he has openly expressed what is in his subconscious. His greed is clear. He wants her in his life and in order to keep her, he needs to become all powerful and to become all powerful, he must turn to the dark side. And in order to turn to the dark side, he must do what the Sith will always do.

    They did teach him properly. He just chose to ignore it in favor of a promise that he made, based out of arrogance and greed. A desire for power.
     
    theraphos and Qui-Riv-Brid like this.
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    @ darth-sinister None of your definitions are nothing like genuine definitions for the concepts you are invoking. They are bespoke, spurious definitions designed purely to uphold a wholly unambiguous and uncritical view of the participants and the story they inhabit. Like I said, square pegs in round holes.

    @ Me-Be-Jedi The desire to make things safer/better is not an indication of selfishness. That's what I said. The means are totally separate from the desire is also what I said. If those means are questionable then it is because of the persons skewed or distorted perception of what constitutes better and for whom.

    If you are inclined to, I guess you could imagine that "probably" Vader realised a lot of things over and above the one that is expressly narrated by the film's text, which is of Vader finding the courage to let go of that which he believes empowers him when it means the death of his and Padme's son (named by Padme) in front of his eyes (wheras the sadistic murder of billions of innocents on Alderann had left him unmoved, decades after the reality of being a servant of evil had surely dawned on him).

    The fact that Luke behaves like a Jedi and therefore shows Vader the value of compassion doesn't make sense. Vader has been twisted or has twisted it in his head that the Jedi are evil. So it makes no sense and the need for Vader to see the example of a Jedi is never alluded to at any point. The need for Vader to be reunited with his son, on the darkside he presumes, is what is expressly referred to several times. Luke's challenge to Vader is, you cannot be my father and a servant of evil. Luke's dilemma is that he is led to believe that he cannot be a Jedi unless he destroy's Vader and his emperor, as Obi Wan and Yoday once tried to do. But Luke defies them all and proves that he can be a Jedi, and he can be his father's son, so long as his father joins him and saves them both.