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Does Lucasfilm Need New Leadership?

Discussion in 'Lucasfilm Ltd. In-Depth Discussion' started by Rickleo123, Jun 21, 2017.

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  1. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    As much as i dislike TLJ, even I think it's a silly campaign and a waste of time.

    Still if people want to waste their time and money on such a campaign let them, all you have to do is ignore them, that's what I do.

    On the other hand I do support campaigns to have EA stripped of the starwars licence.
     
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  2. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Give it time.
    The backlash over Battlefront 2 may yet change something
     
  3. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    I will believe it when EA start publishing games other than FPS and crappy mobile games [face_laugh]

    Until then I shall long for the glory days of Tie fighter, dark forces and empire at war :(
     
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  4. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    They do also make good sports games.

    And Bioware generally do very good games.

    EA would be fine if they mostly just left the developers they own to do what they do.

    Take a leaf out of Disney's book
     
  5. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Short answer: Over DUE!
     
  6. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I'd love to see a new Dark Forces game using the Doom engine. As for the question I think we should wait until episode 9 comes out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  7. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2015
    This idea that you make movies for "fans"...this is the worst vision possible of what a movie should be. A movie should first be the "child" of its author(s). If the audience happens to like it, fine, very fine. It not...well, that doesn't mean that this/these author(s) should adapt to the audience's taste. Cinema is not food or sportswear or whatever. Is that really so hard to understand?

    Again, simple analogy. Music. Would you want your favourite bands/artists to listen to their fans and give them what they want? Or do you want them to follow their own muse and inspiration, at the risk of disappointing you?
     
  8. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    See as a filmmaker, this is where I like RJ. He did want he wanted. He wanted to make a movie he wanted, not that everyone else wanted.

    Though imo, he should have just been given a trilogy to begin with and continue JJs work.
     
  9. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Exactly what Lucas did.
    He told a story he wanted to tell. It didn't expect it to be as popular as it is
     
  10. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Fair point. I wholeheartedly agree with your music analogy. I would prefer musicians to follow their muse and make music independent of their fan's desires. If the audience happens to enjoy their independent take, so much the better. I disagree that this analogy applies, in any way, to Rian Johnson and The Last Jedi, however. If RJ had, in fact, followed his muse and completely ignored fan input then I do not think we would be having the endless discussion.

    I believe RJ did pay attention to fan input and made choices specifically in response to that input. He simply chose to do the opposite of that which the fandom was most vocal about wanting. Rather than making the movie vocal fans wanted, he went about making the movie they didn't know they didn't want. This is why I find it so insulting. Rian purposefully anticipated how fans would react to specific story beats and seemed to enjoy going with the most boring and disappointing direction possible. He didn't accidentally trip over disappointing fans; it was his objective.

    At every turn something unexpected happens, sure. Unexpected does not mean or imply the result is good, fun, compelling, interesting or thought provoking. It is simply unexpected. Same with "risk". Risk =/= reward.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  11. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 16, 2015
    DP
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  12. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 16, 2015
    We won't agree on that, i'm afraid. Because i think that every story choice in TLJ seems like a genuine personal choice and not an empty attempt at "twists for the sake of it". Killing Snoke to break the repetitive master-apprentice dynamics, Making Old Luke wearing his own tragedy on his face as opposed to the more "solar" Old Ben, to explore the humanity behind the legend, the complexity of passing the torch and past failures...Rey from Nowhere and from Nobody as opposed to "dark prince" Kylo Ren, of Skywalker blood. To me each of the twists and turns are justifed by the themes, the story and the characters. Of course there is a play with SW tropes, but that's what post-modernism is about. Actually it doesn't just play with SW tropes with many movie tropes too.

    IMO Lucas SW were post-modernists in their own right, but with time they became "classicist". JJ had this classicist approach. I think RJ, by having a post-modernist approach to SW is more in line to what Lucas was doing in the late 70s.
     
  13. Admiral Keller

    Admiral Keller Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Honestly I think that campaign is just a straight up troll attempt. IIRC some people found that you can basically submit whatever figure you want for your pledge and it ups the donation status by a million dollars if you want to. Don't quote me on that as I'm pulling from my memory here. It stinks of 4chan tbh.
     
  14. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    A criticism of TFA from many people is that it was too much like ANH.
    RJ decided to make it less predictable by going away from what was expected with the established story strands.

    Snoke was the Emperor, Kylo was Vader.
    Rey was Luke.

    It was headed for an OT retread. Rey would overcome the dark side & defeat Kylo. He would be redeemed & Snoke would be defeated.
    Kylo killing Snoke is a way better twist, and him then becoming even more evil. Perhaps to the extent that he can't be redeemed.
     
  15. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    We are pretty much entering the same retread of the OT still. The throne room scene just happened one movie earlier. Rey will overcome the dark side and beat Kylo. Can’t see Kylo winning in this trilogy.

    Getting rid of Snoke was a decent twist, but without the context of the character, there’s not too much significance.

    I honestly would have loved to see Rey turn and join Kylo. That would have been the ultimate twist in my book. I still feel like they played it too safe with both Rey and Kylo and they are pretty much the same characters at the end of tlj as they were at the end of TFA.

    Going into 9, it would have been interesting to see how Luke and Leia would team up to take down the kids or turn them. Rey going off with Kylo I think would have been good build up for 9.

    But going back to the discussion of this thread, With regards of what RJ did with TLJ and the leadership of LF, one thing that bugs me is that they let him write a script before TFA even finished filming.

    As a film student I wouldn’t even dare write a sequel until I saw the whole film (TFA), got all of the plot points, see how this character interacted with this character and started there. I just find it mind boggling he completed a script before 7 finished wrapping.
     
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  16. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    He was working closely with JJ, so he knew the story outline already.
    That's why he asked JJ to change the end scene of TFA to include R2 & not BB-8.

    Trevorrow was doing the same. He argued with RJ about leaving Luke alive because of what he wanted to do in Episode IX. RJ refused to play ball.

    Now we have JJ again, so you can guarantee we'll get Starkiller Base 2.

    The problem is that there was no established plot arc for the trilogy.
    Have directors do their own take on the story but take it in the agreed direction.
    Instead we had 3 guys making it up as they went and expecting the next one to simply adapt to whatever they did.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  17. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    I agree that we do not agree on this. Almost the entirety of TLJ feels, specifically, like "twists for the sake of it", to me.

    I agree with @Jamtia on this. I don't really find myself moved in any way by Snoke's death. I'm not glad he's gone. I'm not bummed he's gone. I just don't care b/c I was never given a reason to care beyond him being a character in a Star Wars movie.

    I was under the impression, from reading these forums, that Luke was the supposed to be the Yoda of this trilogy, not Obi Wan. I have seen this opinion broadcast as obvious fact several times. I do not, however, agree with this assessment as Yoda's reason for not wanting to train Luke are far more relatable/understandable/logical.

    Aside from that, I have never bought into this deconstruction nonsense some people seem get all hyped about. I didn't like it in TFA or Nolanverse Batman and I don't like it here. Honestly, I find this to be the most annoying trend in media today. Why can't I just get an unadulterated Batman or Star Wars trilogy? Cuz deconstruction is cool cuz look the hero cant be himself cuz that's not the hero they (Galaxy/Gotham) need and that makes it cool cuz you wanted to see a movie where the hero is actually the hero, ha ha pleb... Enough; its just boring. Just write the next chapter in the story, already.

    Whether or not the "twists" can be "justified" within the themes/characters of this movie is irrelevant, to me. I only care about TLJ in the context of the other 7 movies. In that context, this installment is extremely lacking. I feel like "here we go again, the hero cant be the hero cuz that's all the rage these days even though Hollywood has been doing this with heroes since Superman II in 1981. Never mind this is likely the last time we will see Luke Skywalker in the flesh; suck it up cuz there's a highfalutin ism people learned about in film school."

    If you are saying that Lucas was bucking long standing trends in cinema by writing Luke and Han as having a healthy friendship and Leia being forthright and capable, I agree with the assessment of Lucas. With regard to TLJ, however, deconstruction IS the trend in cinema currently. We cant get away from it and its frustrating.
     
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  18. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 16, 2015
    @eko32eko7 To me Lucas was already "de-constructing" several genres in his SW movies (western, arthurian tale, pulp movies, sf, heroic fantasy, samurai films, WW movies etc...) and re-contextualizing them in a post-60s world. It's still popcorn movies, but post-modernists ones.

    Now that's just my opinon but i find RJ's take on SW closer to Lucas' approach: taking inspiration from all these samurai/western/pulp/etc movies and telling a story that's a reflection on what is a a story, why do we need them. To see how they work, to question them and to transcend them in the end somehow. Yes it's very meta and it might be fashionable right now but while Marvel only does this more or less to have fun and get some laughs, TLJ tries to explore more mature themes (ageing, war class, weight of history, burden of legacy) and has brains.

    My experience of my 4th and last viewing of the movie at the theatre when i was walking back home was a sense of elevation and harmony. I thought it was more than just good entertainement. I thought it had beauty in it. Spirituality (and i'm a harcdore atheist) Yoda's last lesson, Him and Luke sitting watching the fire. I don't know, the movie moved me in many ways. I'm not really interested in things like "can Rey be that powerful", i'm looking for something that touches my touches my heart and my brain and -it's just my own experience- The Last Jedi did that to me.

    I know a lot of people will disagree with that opinon but The Last Jedi is one of the very few huge blockbusters/mainstream popcorn movies, that has a slight arthouse cinema vibe to it. Of course it's relative, don't get me wrong. It's 90% popcorn fun. But i found that there was someting else too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  19. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    @The PiedPiper of Alderaan I don't want to detract from your enjoyment. I just wish their could have been a version we both could have enjoyed. Also, for me, its more tragic than just disliking the movie... TLJ detracts from my enjoyment of other movies. The shine is off the apple. I never anticipated this.

    The product that Mr. Lucas produced inspired me because there was nothing about it felt like the real world. Evil was evil and good was good. Evil doesn't see itself as evil, but the audience had very little difficulty telling the difference between the two. Regardless of how oppressive the Empire was, we could count on Luke and Leia to fight.

    It inspired my 6 year old brain to ask questions and I have been scouring TGFFA for answers ever since. To me, the answers to questions posed in TGFFA were always locked up in the TGFFA and were never to be found on Earth. If felt real enough to be engaging, but exotic enough to distract yourself and immerse yourself in the environments and lore. Darth Vader didnt feel like Luke's enemy, he felt like our enemy. The time I spent with Han, Leia, Luke, Anakin, Qui-Gon and Obi Wan were restful and rejuvenating because I could allow myself to let go of real world drama for 2 hours.

    Rian's product feels like the real world. The plot is an exercise in avoiding that which might actually be exciting, while framing itself as though it is exciting (didn't you see the STAR WARS logo?). Beyond the inclusion of earthly items like books and clothes irons, the the situations the cast find themselves in feel mundane and boring. The answers to why this movie is the way it is always seem to come back to events occurring here on Earth and what someone may have read about in film school. Yoda and Luke were all but unrecognizable. Gone is the sense of wonder and awe. Gone are the feelings of comradery with the cast. Kylo Ren feels like their enemy and I dont really care because this trilogy refuses to give any reason to. I will eventually watch episode IX, but I may not see it in the theater. TLJ jettisoned most of my interest in seeing the numbered episodes.

    The absolute worst part is that the creators think they did me a favor. I'm obviously still mourning.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  20. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    I am not really a fan of YouTube but this video from generation completely sums up why Disney are falting with starwars and why certain people need firing.



    Rather than a typical youtube rant it's very well presented.

    Kathleen Kennedy says " she owes the fans nothing"....... we she obviously does not understand simple buisness and the concept that "The customer is ALWAYS right". WE the fans are the ones paying her. We keep her in her multimillion dollar job.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  21. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    I think there needs to be a fine line between giving fans what they want and doing what LF/Disney wants to do.

    We fans are customers. It's like going to a restaurant. You should make food that people want to eat and pleasing the customers. Not have the restaurant be their way or the high way.

    Unfortunately I felt that Disney has fallen into that trap the last two movies. No one really wanted TLJ to go the way it did and no one asked for a Solo movie to begin with.

    I think Disney should listen to the fans and what they want, but at the same time, fans shouldn't cry mass hysteria when something small doesn't go the way they want. But obviously, something like the shift in TLJ is nothing small about it. Even though, fans need to have more dignity and respect towards others if they are going to do backlash.

    I honesty think avoiding fans expectations is what put them in whatever position they are in right now. Rian wanted to make a movie that fans would also despise. There's a new video on Star Wars Theory Youtube page about this. I get that Rian wanted the hype, the backlash, to make a name for himself with many people talking about this in anyway possible for years to come. As I've stated in my previous posts, I still don't get Kathleen and Disney's idea to let RJ get full hands on this, even adapting to his mindset. All of the other films had director changes and reshoots, but the most controversial one got no questioning or had any changes for the better happen? This is where I think a lot of the fandom is lost right now. Fans want to be on LF side, but when you also get comments from JJ attacking people who didn't like TLJ, it does rub off on fans the wrong way.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I will never understand wanting to make a movie that fans would also despite just to have backlash.

    You know another way to make a name for yourself for years to come?

    Make a movie that is almost universally loved.
     
  23. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    That's an easy thing to say, but it has little to do with how things actually work. "Just do that", well, you can't just "do that", else everyone would "do that".

    You don't know what "everyone" wanted, because there is no such thing. You are talking from your point of view, disregarding that you don't speak for the fans. You are just one of many, a group so diverse that many of its views contradict themselves entirely, making it impossible to please everyone at the same time. Here it isn't Disney falling into a trap, it's you.

    And I have zero idea what makes you think that Rian Johnson wanted to make a movie that fans would also despise. There is literally nothing that supports such a view. Random people on the internet making absurd claims about what another person probably thought is not an argument, and it most definately isn't the basis for discussion on what said person actually thinks. It's projecting the own feelings on the matter onto said person, trying to find a reason as for why he did something, coming to absurd conclusions because of being incapable of understanding the persons actual thoughts and mindset on the matter.

    Nor is there anything that supports the theory that they just let Rian Johnson do his thing and there was no debate about stuff. Again, you are mixing up your own views with factual reality. How exactly would you know that they let him do everything without oversight? That's right, you don't, because it is incorrect. Not only does that ignore that every movie sees changes during development, which means that it is all but impossible that they didn't have a constructive back and forth over this, but somehow you also ignore the possibility that they loved his approach and ideas. Your opinion basically says "I didn't like it, therefore they should have realized that changes were necessary", which completely ignores that you not liking something doesn't mean that everyone does not like it. People very much can have different opinions on what works and what doesn't work, else every single movie would have a great reception. If they thought what they had was terrific, why would they need to make big changes? You go with what you feel is right, that's how movie-making works. The audience then can decide whether it likes it or not, and there are always people who like it and people who dislike it, to varying degrees of course. Assuming that they failed to do their job because you didn't end up liking it, is a faulty conclusion. It fails to take into account that you liking or disliking something is in no way connected to the work-process that created the movie.

    And where exactly does this idea of JJ Abrams, or even Rian Johnson, Kennedy or someone else "attacking people" come from?
    If anything, it is the completely opposite, they got lambasted in the most pathetic way possible, while staying pretty calm themselves. Both Abrams and Johnson went out of their way to state that it is perfectly fine for someone to dislike any of the movies. The only ones they openly criticised were those who used racism and sexism as an "argument" (i.e. the alt-right) and to a lesser extent those who lost their mind and threw all decency and civility out of the window. Not once did they generalize all those who disliked the movie, that's only something a few of those who didn't like it did to themselves.
     
  24. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    No. It's them trapping themselves by

    - making divisive movies without any need to do so,
    - flops,
    - negative press because of firing director after director,
    - postponing spin offs,
    - announcing spin offs without any kind of a plan,
    - announcing trilogies without making analyzes if the majority of fans want to see something set in the distant future by a divisive director,
    - postponing Indy 5,
    - milking the "dumb" fandom with games like BF2 and other expensive stuff,
    - proposing their own streaming service that you have to subscribe to see their stuff,
    - giving arrogant comments on social media
    - insulting fans with stuff like "Your theory sucks"
    - insulting fans who criticize them (not attack them) by calling them alt-right
    - discussing in public about their leadership
    etc. etc.

    I am not sure about that but their "99.999999% TLJ was great critics" did that in plenty of articles (besides saying that everyone else who did not like the film simply does not understand the art of TLJ)
    In the end the negative impression of those articles gets immediately projected against LF/Disney

    In the end the "Trap" is the turnover and the income of Disney/LF
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  25. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    To be fair, Battlefront is an EA thing.
    We don't know how much say LFL & Disney have in terms of what types of games EA puts out. It could be like the Marvel rights sold to Fox & Sony, as long as they make money they can keep them & do what they want.

    Presumably there is a tie-in clause in that EA has to have elements of their games that match the current Star Wars movie/TV project (hence Battlefront having a Solo season & new skins being available).

    We really need to get away from this whole "do what we want" mentality.
    Let's be real, the customer is wrong probably 80% of the time (I have worked in retail, I can tell you this from experience). And what many people want isn't necessarily what is good.
    Transformers movies make lots of money, because plenty of people are prepared to go & see pointless explosion movies.
    Do we really want Star Wars to turn into some glorified fan film series because that's what the majority decide they want? A lot of what fans want is dumb or makes no sense.

    Lucas didn't make Star Wars for fans, he made it to tell a story he wanted to tell. He didn't think it would make money, that's not why he made it.
    Star Wars is not our story, it belongs to the makers. They decide what direction to take it in. You either like that or you don't
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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