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Rogue One Does Rogue One "improve" with multiple viewings?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Anthology (Released Films)' started by Unkar's Muffins, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002

    Yeah, this sums up why I don't find the R1 characters very naturalistic. They don't really feel like they exist to me outside their immediate action movie plot. ANH gave a real sense of Luke's soon-to-be-ending youth, not only before he begins his heroic journey but after as well. I feel like I'm following him firsthand. R1 offering a quick flashback (that mostly serves to introduce the evil guy) before reintroducing Jyn's adult self made for, like I said, an entirely different character foundation.

    Speaking of Saw, he's a great example of the film's haphazardness. Pokes his head in as a nice father figure type. Appears later as a crazed dude tired of running. What about everything in between? Without that am I honestly supposed to care when he dies?
     
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  2. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Understood. Though in that context, I see the Rogue One prologue and the scenes of Luke with Beru and Owen as essentially equivalent. And we get more info about the Jyn-Saw relationship than we do about the Luke-Obi-Wan relationship. She was his adoptee, and he abandoned her (which cemented her cynicism), though we later learn he was protecting her. As for the other characters, we knew little-to-nothing about the pre-ANH life of Leia, and just a bit about Han’s. That’s also pretty much the equivalent of what we learn about Bodhi (previously a guilt-ridden Imperial pilot), K2 (a former Imp droid), Chirrut and Baze (former members of a religious order, one of which has lost his faith and regains it by the end). That’s very comparable to what we learned about Leia and Han across the OT, nevermind just ANH.

    That’s why I think this is more about not liking the “style” of characterization, rather than characterization being missing. Just like for me, I find the style of characterization in the prequels to be not my cup of tea, but I don’t deny that it’s there.

    There’s just as much characterization in RO than there is in the OT. It’s just not done in the sign-posted and more archetypal style of the OT. I love both styles. It’s just that at my age, the RO style spoke to me more.
     
  3. 11-4D

    11-4D Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Luke and his aunt and uncle is probably the equivalent, but they never attempted to have that has the emotional core of the movie. Which is what Jyn and her fathers relationship strives to be. The bonds I felt an emotional connection to in ANH was Han and Luke's because we saw how their friendship evolved and where that bond came from. That's why it Han's departure hits you, since the adventure they were on will never happen again since they're splitting up. Hence, I know what I'm missing. I just saw none of that bonding in Rogue One, but if you did, cool.
     
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  4. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Makes sense. I see a more complex and perhaps less heart-warming/ immediately satisfying bonding occur between Jyn and her father, Jyn and Cassian (and even Jyn and Chirrut, and of course Chirrut and Baze), but I appreciate that the quieter and much more minimalist style of that bonding is not to everyone’s liking.
     
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  5. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    You do of course see a flashback to Jyn's "normal" life reasonably early in the film prior to big dramatic scenes with Galen but beyond that I think the connection is also shown indirectly by her reaction to hearing details about him. During that interrogation on Yavin I think her reactions betray both a continued connection to him and a guilt at the idea he's making WMD's for the Empire even if she tries to claim neither are the case.

    Equally I think the cut from the scene of Saw discovering her as a child to her in prison as an adult implies a good deal. You switch from what seems like the setup to a heroic story of Jyn being raised by Saw to take on the Empire complete with the rousing title fanfare that difts away in an echo to show Jyn in obviously not in a heroic situation looking very resentful.

    As has been said previously I think its more the case that the method the drama is delivered in differs from some peoples expectations rather than the drama itself being that uncharacteristic of SW. That's aid though I don't think its THAT different from the OT(especially ESB) so much as its different from modern blockbusters that tend towards very straight forward dramatic portrayals aimed at a single viewing.
     
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  6. Aroooo-Dion

    Aroooo-Dion Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Getting back to the topic, it gets worse for me, but I think that was inevitable.

    Firstly, my initial viewing was so sublime that it's hard to top that experience. It was almost hallucinatory.

    Secondly, I now can't help but have the few (for me) dud moments stand out: Saw's rather unexpected choice to stay behind, Jyn's flat speech to the council and the terrible delivery of Melshi, who underlines the convoluted nature of the "master switch" sequence.

    It's still a great movie--I'd give it 9/10 and rank it alongside TFA--and I almost feel like it's churlish to grumble about these moments, given what it achieves. But it's hard for a film to improve for you when it hits that sweet spot on the initial viewing.
     
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  7. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    To me, those are also the only iffy bits (and they're very minor). Though I don't mind Saw's decision much at all, as the guy can barely walk, and given his revolutionary nature, probably understands the political power of martyrdom. Further, I think Jyn's speech is supposed to be flat. She's not an orator, she's not a Rebel, and she's pleading (and kind of insulting) a room full of old rebel hands. And, of course, her speech fails to impress the room, which was sort of the point. That said, I blame Giacchino's musical cues for mixing signals during the scene, and trying to pump it up as "inspiration speech moment" with french horns and such. He misread the scene (and the character of Jyn), IMO, and I think that hurt it.
     
  8. Aroooo-Dion

    Aroooo-Dion Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    I think it's the score and possibly also the editing. It's all pulling in the wrong direction. It's the same feeling I get from the romance in AOTC, which is clearly unhealthy and intended as such, yet it's played completely straight.
     
    Gigoran Monk likes this.
  9. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Yeah, I feel like there was a call from somewhere on high to pump that moment up. Based on how Felicity delivers her lines, and based on the style of the rest of the film, I don't think this particular cut was the way Edwards wanted it. Just too saccharine. And Giacchino laid the sugar on even thicker.

    Anyway, though it's probably my least favorite scene in terms of execution (as otherwise, I loved seeing some Senators in the film), it's not exactly a failure. It's just not quite right.

    And I would never talk about it in the same paragraph as the AOTC romance. ;)
     
  10. Aroooo-Dion

    Aroooo-Dion Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    ...I don't think Daisy was in this movie. It was her mother, Felicity.
     
  11. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    D'oh! Those names are just too similar. Felicity and Daisy. Happiness, flowers, etc. They simply fit into a part of my brain that does not differentiate.
     
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  12. Jim Smith

    Jim Smith Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2017


    Yeah it's not like Saw Gerrera could've taken off running for the U-Wing while Jedha was crumbling. He's down to one leg and he has to have a breathing apparatus. What does people want him to do fly like a bird to the U-Wing or maybe even teleport. People's gripes about certain things in this movie is kind of flat and even downright asinine.
     
  13. Aroooo-Dion

    Aroooo-Dion Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Keep in mind I said it was a 9/10 movie and that any gripes seem not worth focusing on. But Saw's decision to stay isn't set up enough for my taste. I absolutely get that he's both crazy and infirmed, but he also seems a bit lacking in self-awareness until that moment, which makes it a bit sudden
     
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  14. Jim Smith

    Jim Smith Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2017


    Saw isn't self-aware? That's a real head-scratcher right there. You seem to suffer from what a lot of other people suffer from and it's people and yourself included being a little too masterpiece theatre for your own good. It's just very, very pretentious.
     
  15. A Corpse of Disapproval

    A Corpse of Disapproval Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2015
    You can cease taking personal swipes at people simply because they have the audacity to not share your opinion. Or you can be banned. This is the only warning.
     
  16. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Dude, relax. He loves Rogue One and has a few very minor issues with a couple of bits. Absolutely no reason to personally attack him for it.
     
  17. The Wagonmaster

    The Wagonmaster Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Just watched Rogue One for the umpeenth time, and it is, in fact, more amazing each time. People say the character development isn't there, and for a short while I entertained that theory myself, but now I see that argument doesn't hold the slightest bit of water. Jyn is a completely fleshed out character, Felicity makes all of her emotions subtle, so people thought that nothing was there. Jyn discovers how to be a part of something greater than herself, while Rey discovers how great she is herself. I'm of the same mindset as Scott Mantz, Pete Hammond, Kevin Smith and Gigoran Monk: this is the greatest Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back.
     
  18. Iamnoone

    Iamnoone Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Of the two new films I gave TFA a 7/10 and Rogue One an 8/10 I think when they were relatively new.

    I actually find myself returning to rewatch R1 90% of the time compared to TFA. I also never understood the character development complaints considering this was a one and done movie, I absolutely got Jyn & Cassians motivations.

    I think over time my ratings have evolved to a 6.5 for TFA, as I tend to zone out as soon as the story hits Takodana and I hate the Starkiller Base and that they even went there. I think the likeability of the characters was TFA's strong point and will serve TLJ well but the story falls short over repeat viewings for me.

    R1 has pushed up to an 8.5, as much as people tend to rave about the 2nd half of this movie I actually love the first half when we meet everyone for the first time - that was done in a better way than TFA in my opinion. Love everything on Jedha.
     
  19. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I gave the film I 98 when I first viewed it. Now, I give it a 95. I still love it.


    With regard to TFA, I gave it a 94 when I first viewed it. I now only give it an 82. I mainly like it because of the acting of Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver. I have a feeling I'll like the story of TLJ better.



    R1 is my favorite SW film since 1995. For me, TESB is my favorite, R1 is my second favorite, and ROTJ and ANH are tied for third. TFA is my fourth favorite. TPM and ROTS are tied after that, and AOTC is my least favorite.
     
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  20. Darth Voorhees

    Darth Voorhees Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2017
     
  21. Darth Voorhees

    Darth Voorhees Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2017
    After my initial viewing I was REALLY disapointed. But through continued viewings, I'd give it a 6/10.
     
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  22. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    It’s a subjective matter of taste. I can see why some people wouldn’t like it, since it’s more about relationships than action. It all depends on the individual. Compared to more epic films, I can see why it would be deemed above average.

    Go, Chicago! Mom’s hometown!
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It’s stayed the same 10/10 for me after multiple viewings. When I’m rewatching a Star Wars movie now, it’s almost always either Rogue One, ESB or ROTJ.
     
  24. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    I still find the first half or so a mixed bag and the more I watch it the greater the slog becomes to get through to Scarif, which is where it really shines. ROTJ has a simliar problem. They're both films that I feel like I can have on in the background until the third act kicks in (and the point in both is exactly the same!). There are some scenes where I just roll my eyes too, which was definitely not the case when I first saw it.

    I find myself not really thinking about it very much, and so I've probably watched it less than any other SW movie (excluding the Ewok movies of course). I don't own the bluray and probably haven't seen it since the home video release.
     
  25. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    That's not really on topic is it coming from someone who admits not having rewatched it much and not at all recently.

    Again I personally find rewatching leads to a preference for the stages of the film before Scarif, the battle made the biggest impact on first viewing but the drama and detail of the setting are really the films greatest strengths for me.