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Does the Saga deserve the title The Tragedy of Darth Vader?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Merlin_Ambrosius69, Feb 24, 2009.

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  1. morpha2

    morpha2 Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2005
    I think what made TPM one of the most highly anticipated movies of all time was simply that people were excited to see more Star Wars movies. Most fans already had a pretty good idea of the hows and whys of the backstory from years and years of exposure to the OT and related media. Vader's redemption is just one example of this. He betrayed Obi-Wan and helped the Emperor to hunt down and exterminate the Jedi. Just from the OT we know that what Vader has done in the past (and present) was BAD. So when he turns back to the light side, he is redeemed in part.

    (As an aside, the PT actually complicates the idea of his redemption in ROTJ by explicitly showing Anakin committing atrocities that are beyond redeeming)
     
  2. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    thats really down to an individual's philosophy though surely? you might not forgive his actions but its plausible enough for the force to forgive them under certain circumstances (or whoever's authority it is to judge it). i remember a key teaching when i was young, possibly from the bible, that suggested nobody was beyond redemption if they were truly sorry. again, its just a philosophy though. can you atone for something simply by accepting you are wrong? can anakin's redemption be earned? in the context of the story it clearly can.

    i dont think the PT complicates this any more than the OT - it states in the OT he killed jedi knights. thats what we see him do in the PT. the OT made no particulars about whether the jedi he killed were young or old. the key isnt age, its innocence. we view the kids as innocent but the older jedi could be equally as innocent. killing is killing. its taking another life. i dont know how you define the differences when it comes down to redemption alone.
     
  3. morpha2

    morpha2 Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2005
    But that's a consequence of the PT showing us what went on. If left largely to your imagination, maybe Anakin's actions weren't so horrible. Maybe he at least faced the Jedi he was hunting on their own terms and slew them because he was the more cunning warrior (the OT somewhat suggests a kind of chivalrous code of conduct among Jedi). The viewer's knowledge that killing a roomful of children was part of his dark path definitely colors the ending of ROTJ, imo, especially when your previous understanding of his misconduct was so vague.
     
  4. xx_Anakin_xx

    xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 9, 2008
    How did the PT complicate matters? His only atrocities beyond redemption were after he turned into Darth Vader. Prior to that he killed the Sith Lord Dooku - fine even if the Jedi would have rathered him captured. He killed the Tuskins, evil to the farmers/slaves of Tatooine of which Anakin had been one and in retaliation for brutally torturing and killing his mum. But he felt remorse for that last, so redemption works no matter how you see it, imo. But as Vader, he killed what, billions? From the point of turning in the PT till the end - so those are his sins. He saved billions before that by the way as a Jedi - just to add in all fairness.

    I love Vader, I don't care if he's redeemed or not, that doesn't matter since as a Villain he was the best. But, I see him as redeemed in the Force - otherwise he couldn't have become a Force Ghost - and not likely redeemed to anyone in the Galaxy who opposed or disagreed with the methods of the empire. In as far as his "earthly redemption" in a spiritual sense, I guess I never cared enough to think about it. I spent too much time dwelling on the brilliant dark lord he was. :D
     
  5. ScannerOmegamon

    ScannerOmegamon Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 29, 2009
    Ok,i will answer to topic question.As a 1-6 Saga,as one story,It can be called Tragedy of Darth Vader/Anakin Skyalker.Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is in all 6 films.in TPM he borns and in ROTJ he dies.Simple really.Ok,you can always cut Saga to different pieces.Like OT and PT.OT actually incorporates Anakin,s,Luke,s story and how Empire will be won.Luke is the hero in OT,Darth Vader as supposed villain,but actually he isn,t,just mere puppet.Real Villain of whole Saga is Palpatine.PT focuses mainly on Anakin,s story and how Empire is created with conspiracy by Palpatine.
    Then you can even cut it to individual films.But then it gets even more complicated.Some count even screentime,to find out,who is main character in Individual film.

     
  6. morpha2

    morpha2 Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2005
    He also killed all of the Jedi in cold blood. Got his hands a little dirty there, didn't he?

    And when did he kill billions in the OT? Tarkin pulled the trigger on the Death Star, not Vader. Vader didn't even like the Death Star. His personal body count was probably in the OT the teens, and many of them were agents of the evil Empire.
     
  7. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    "Vader is just a puppet" destroys, for me, the power of Anakin's salvation.

    And reflecting on the back-and-forth between morpha and xx_Anakin, I've realized that it really is salvation, rather than redemption, that Anakin achieves. One good act of saving his son does not earn redemption from the things we see Vader do in just the OT, much less in the entire Saga. And the salvation is achieved not by his own hand but through the grace of the Force and the love of his son.

    Vader's sole 'redemptive' action, saving his son at the expense of everything he has spent a generation dedicated towards, is every bit as borne out of attachment as his conversion to the Dark Side. From this there are two potential conclusions: 1) The Jedi philosophy regarding attachment was misguided/incorrect, or 2) Anakin/Vader is no more wise or in-control than he was when he turned, but the ends justify the means.
     
  8. ChrissySnow21

    ChrissySnow21 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 25, 2009
    That is all so true. It makes one wonder if what gary kurtz said about lucas changing direction after episode 5 is true when he said the direction lucas wanted to change things in just did not fit the story well. He said vader was not suppose to be lukes father and luke was suppose to be the only true hero and luke and the emperor finally have their confrontation in episode 9.

    I personally like things the way they are with a few minor gripes but it makes me wonder what things would have been like had kurtz stayed and lucas stuck to his original ideas. I remember reading kurtz saying how disappointed he was when episode 6 came out and how the direction lucas went in ruined all the character development and plotting that was created in empire strikes back.
     
  9. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003

    It's funny how there's variations out there on the net of the "Kurtz said X" theme....one example is the one you reference above, where Vader is not the father - even with TESB - and another I've read, on this site no less, is that Kurtz thought the story was (or wanted it to be) that Vader WAS the father of Luke, but that he was really 'just' Darth Vader, and not Anakin Skywalker, and thus Luke was really 'Luke Vader'. Anakin S. in this scenario was just a Jedi friend of Obi-Wan whom, after being killed by Vader, is given the honor of being regarded as being Luke's biological father when he really wasn't.

    However, the version I think most likely based in reality is the interview he gave on IGN in '99 after TPM was released, where he said that Vader was to have been the father, but the redemption was going to be done from a different angle...more along the lines of father-and-son-join-forces to 'right the wrongs' of the current Imperial regime.
     
  10. Game3525

    Game3525 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Episode 5, I always thought was going to remain the same, Luke is Vader's son, Anakin=Vader etc. It was episode 6 that was supposed to change, Han dies, Leia becomes queen, Vader is redeemed and Luke goes looking for his sister.
     
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