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Dooku, the clone army, & Sifo-Dyas

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by spiritgurl, Jun 22, 2005.

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  1. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Okay so I was trying to work out why Dooku left and how the Clone Army came about etc.. in order to come up with some backstory that made sense for my fic. Anyway, tell me if this seems feasible....

    Dooku pre Phantom Menace is genuinely frustrated with the Jedi Council and feels that the Jedi are being corrupted and used by the Republic. He is not at this point a "bad guy". His concerns are legitimate but he's getting frustrated by the Jedi's refusal to change. He feels they are losing sight of a Jedi's true purpose - to study and understand the Force - snd is in particular frustrated with their neglect of the Living Force. His friend/possibly his padawan Sifo-Dyas, as well as Qui-Gon Jinn to some extent feel the same way but their protests are basically blown off by the rest of the Jedi Council because of the Council members own arrogance. They feel they know what's best, etc... Dooku suggests that if the Republic needs peace keepers they should have an army and let the Jedi go back to studying the force. This idea is not met well by the JC. Dooku leaves the JC and the Jedi because of this but Sifo and Qui-Gon stay behind. Not long after, or around this time, Dooku is approached by Sidious who at first doesn't reveal he is a Sith, but who plays on Dooku's frustration with the Jedi. He convinces Dooku to manipulate Sifo Dias in order to keep a contact on the Council. He perhaps tries to manipulate Qui-Gon in much the same way but less successfully.

    Sifo-Dyas, secretly with Dooku's guidance, becomes a member of the Jedi Council shortly before the PM. Some time after Phantom Menace, Dooku convinces Sifo Dias to go to Kamino and order a Clone Army figuring that by the time they are ready the JC or the Republic will be convinced to use them. The point here is that Dooku and Dias are looking to have the Clone Army do what the "peacekeeping"/police work that the Jedi have been doing for the Republic and let the Jedi concentrate on the Force. Dooku also manipulates Sifo into erasing Kamino from the archives in order to keep the Jedi from learning of their plans before the time is right. Another possibility there, could be Dooku is visiting some "old friends" at the Temple and he himself erases Kamino without Dias' knowledge.

    Then either Sifo-Dyas learns the Dooku is now working for the Sith and confonts Dooku, OR Dooku has been ordered by Sidious to murder Sifo Dias after the order has taken place because he poses some threat to reveal the truth to the Council too early OR Sifo Dias, after having done the deal, has reservations and shares them with Dooku, who then kills him to keep him from going to the JC and telling them about the Clone Army.

    Dooku, newly dubbed Darth Tyranus, then hires Jango Fett to be the model for the new Clone Army.

    I realize there may be some more EU info that this doesn't totally go along with but I'm not that concerned with EU to be honest. I'm more trying to see if this goes along as backstory for what we see on screen.

    sg

     
  2. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Just adding a note too, upon watching AOTC again, I do think that Mace and Yoda's reactions to Obi-Wan telling them about the Clone army on Kamino warrant the possibility that someone had brought up the idea of creating an army, clone or otherwise, to the Coucil before.

    sg
     
  3. Ob-wan-shawa

    Ob-wan-shawa Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    This is hwta I heard and whatevered. It's very very simmilar to yours.

    Sifo-Dyas was a loyal Jedi Master, and member of the Jedi council. He was, however, of like mind as Qui-Gon Jinn and Count Dooku(who was still a Jedi at the time), meaning he was a free spirit, willing to bend the rules if he thought it was in the best interest of the Jedi and Republic as a whole. Master Sifo-Dyas felt the Jedi's power slowing deminishing, as Yoda and Mace spoke of in ep II, and knew what it mean: the darkside, and the Sith, were growing in power, and that meant there would be a comming war.

    Sifo-Dyas knew the council would not permit the creation of an army without justification, but knew that when the war came it would be too late for the Republic if it was defenseless, and decided to order the army himself, which would be made in secret, but could be used by the Republic to defend itself and defeat the Sith when the war finally happened. Sifo-Dyas and Dooku were working together in this, and while Sifo ordered the clone army from the Kaminoans, Dooku deleted Kamino from the Jedi archives to keep anyone from comming across the planet and finding the location of the army that was being cloned in secret.

    However, just at the same time, Qui-Gon Jinn, a close friend of Count Dooku's(as he had been his padawan) was suddenly killed, deeply affecting the Count. Dooku had also grown to the point of disgust with the corruption in the senate which controled the very republic the Jedi were sworn to serve. If the senate which controlled the republic was corrupt, and the jedi served that republic, did that not mean the Jedi were serving a corrupt entity, and therefore corrupting themselves?

    It was for these reasons Dooku felt he could no longer serve the Jedi Order, and renounced his rank of Master. After leaving the Order, Dooku was somehow turned to the dark side of the force by Darth Sidious, and taken as his Sith apprentice. Sidious would use the clone army for his own bennifit, that being to destroy all other armies which could even stand up to him, and more importantly, the Jedi Order. But, since Sifo-Dyas was a loyal Jedi, and was behind the whole clone army creation, he would have to be killed if the clone army was to be used for another purpose. Sifo-Dyas was mysteriously killed, and there people who did it: his former friend Count Dooku,.. It was Dooku's final test to see if he was true to being a sith and he passed killing sifo.


    The next step was to defeat all armies which could stand against Sidious in the future. This was done by Count Dooku starting the Seperatist movement, in which all the major armies of the galaxy(the trade federation, the intergalactic banking clan, etc) were persuaded to take up arms against the republic. This gave the chancellor the excuse for having an army of his own to defend the republic against this threat.

    Obi-Wan was led to Kamino at just the time the Republic needed said army. Although she didnt know it, Zam Wesell was never intended to suceed in her assassination attempt on Padme. Sidious, Dooku, and Jango knew that Zam wasnt powerful or skilled enough to kill someone under the guard of the famous Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. They knew she would fail, and would be captured. But they wanted her to be captured so Jango could then kill her, and in doing so place the evidence needed to lead the Jedi to the clone army.

    Jango Fett purposely used a type of dart which led Obi-Wan to search for its origin, which he found missing from the jedi archives, which compelled him to go to the planet Kamino to discover the clone army at the precise time Sidious wanted the army to be found so he could use it. The republic had their army, the seperatists had theirs and they finally went to war. Dooku, secretly serving the leader of the Republic(and dark lord of the Sith), knew that the Republic had to win, and manuevered events little by little in the Republics favor, ensuring they won the war. When the war was at its end, the Seperatist made one final, desperate attempt at victory
     
  4. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Yes that is very similar, and some new ideas thanks. :)

    Is that mostly based on Eu info or just speculation, btw?

    Here is the entry for Sifo Dyas in the CUSWE which I only just found, It's very similar too. This should all be based on EU...


    [blockquote]it was believed that this being - a Jedi Knight of small renown - placed the first order for the cloned soldiers developed by the Kaminoans for the Army of the Republic. The order was placed around the time of the Battle of Naboo, directly to Lama Su himself, despite the fact that Master Sifo-Dyas was supposedly dead at that time. The Kaminoans believed that Master Sifo-Dyas hand-picked Jango Fett to serve as the genetic basis for the clone army, admiring his bounty hunting skills, discpline, and incredible attention to details. Yoda later revealed to Obi-Wan Kenobi that Master Sifo-Dyas had, in fact, placed the order for the clone army. Sifo-Dyas had foreseen the disenchantment of both Qui-Gon Jinn and his Master, Count Dooku, and realized that the Old Republic was going to experience a period of conflict. He had also seen the Jedi Order retreat within itself, becoming self-absorbed with its own neutrality. Sifo-Dyas became one of Dooku's closest friends, and Dooku's plans were something that he agreed with, but couldn't act upon. In secret, however, and without the consent of the Jedi Council, Master Sifo-Dyas traveled to Kamino to order the clones. An investigation on Kamino revealed more about Sifo-Dyas' plans, including physical evidence of his presence on the planet. Unfortunately, these investigations also led to the discovery that Count Dooku had murdered Sifo-Dyas shortly after the initial order was placed, allowing Dooku to choose the clone template: Jango Fett. [/blockquote]

    But what about the look that Mace and Yoda share in AOTC when Obi-Wan tells them about the Clone army ordered. I'd swear that was a clue that there had been discussion about that before. It seemed like it was less of a surprise reaction and more of a "damn he did that behind our backs" type reaction.

    sg

    Edit: strange, this - "a Jedi Knight of small renown" - doesn't go along with what is said in AOTC by Lama Su "is Master Sifo-Dyas still a leading member of the Jedi Council?" Hm.
     
  5. Ob-wan-shawa

    Ob-wan-shawa Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    The Dooku killing Sifo dyas is true according to the book Labrynith of Evil (i's the ledaing up to book to ROTS).. and they say more about this in their bt all I remeber is the killing. An the rest I read someone else post sometime long ago and it ws accepted then?.?.
     
  6. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    thanks for the reply. :)

    It seems like such a leap to have Dooku and honorable Jedi Master one moment, then killing Sifo-Dyas the next. It's too bad there isn't more about why/how he turned to the dark side available.

    As far as my fic goes, how does this sound? Dooku while still on the JC, begins to be visited by voices/visions while meditating that he believes to be an ancient force ghost (but turns out to be Sidious). This is how Sidious is able to manipulate and influence him at first, I think it works well since I have trouble thinking Sids just showed up one day and said "Hey Dookie, I'm a Sith Lord... hows about you join me for a bit of murder and mayhem?" :p This would be also how Sids is pressing this idea of starting a Clone Army to Dooku - through these visions Dooku is having. As time goes by, Dooku is so convinced that this voice is telling him "the will of the force" that he becomes angry and kills Sifo Dyas when he threatens to reveal to the Council about the Clone Army that has been ordered. THis murder and touching of the Dark Side of the Force is a shock to Dooku. This is when Sidious appears and reveals he is the one who has been speaking to Dooku. Sort of along the same lines of "a certain point of view" and the way ANakin turns in ROTS, Dooku adopts the idea that he did what he had to because the Jedi are corrupt and it is the will of the force that they be destroyed. He has some feelings that he's done something horrible by killing his friend/apprentice, just as I think Anakin feels he's done something wrong on some levels in ROTS, but by telling themselves that it had to be done, "they were wrong not me", they keep themselves from taking full responsibility and accepting that THEY were wrong. This is how they both wind up turning (in my theory here anyway) - by adopting the "point of view" they needed to to get by, to cling to the truths that are easier and less painful than accepting that they've done something horrific or wrong.

    Sorry for babbling, I'm just trying to make something up that will work, as far as character motivation goes, for Dooku and the story.

    sg
     
  7. Exeter

    Exeter Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    Not babbling at all...any explanation of someone turning to the dark side because of the manipulations of a guy as cunning as Sidious is good in my book. I agree that Dooku wouldn't just kill a fellow Jedi out of the blue and fall under the influence of the Sith in between shots of jawa juice.

    We know Sidious betrayed Dooku, used him to turn Anakin, then discarded his "tool" when its use was over and done with. I can only assume that this is Sidious' normal operation, and that he uses treachery to accomplish what he needs. Dooku already believed the Jedi were corrupt and was much more reflective of the tides of politics than his peers, and even through AOTC and ROTS, when he'd been under the influence of the dark side for years, he didn't strike me as inescapably evil. Obviously, he wasn't a shining role model either (Geonosis executions, evil bad guy rubbing-of-the-hands plots in the darkness with Sidious, etc.), but I had the feeling the entire time that he still held a least a fragment of the original ideals that caused him to leave the Order - his desire to make things "right". Of course, part of his equation was betraying Sidious(is it betrayal if the other expects it, even waits for it?) like all Sith. Unfortunately for Dooku, he didn't count on Anakin losing his head - and he certainly didn't count on losing his own head.

    Talk about babble...I hope I added something to your work in progress ideas.
     
  8. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    yes, very helpful. :D

    Exactly. Sidious is never really straightforward with anyone, he deals in calculated manipulations until he gets what he wants - so it would make sense that he did the same to Dooku to get him where he wanted him.

    I got the same feeling about Dooku in AOTC, yes he's doing some bad stuff by then, but you also get moments, such as the look on his face when Jango is beheaded when you think, "does he feel bad about that?"

    I also wonder if some of Dooku's behavior is actually influenced by a knowledge that Sidious will have him killed and replaced at some point, and a hope that he'll beat Sids to it by killing him first and taking over. I think that his reaching out to Obi-Wan in AOTC could be seen as an attempt to get some help in that direction. Might of been interesting if Obi agreed to help him or if he had convinced Qui-Gon to help him had he survived.

    sg
     
  9. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004
    What I think is so funny about the whole Geonosis thing is that Dooku was really not at fault for the nearly 200 Jedi to die.

    It is against Geonosian law to do any sabotaging or any attempts of espionage. If you think for a moment - Obi-Wan could have been considered doing espionage. Anakin and Padme *were* sabotaging the factory, mainly Anakin... but she could have been in a sense too. ;)

    And sending 200 Jedi after ONE Jedi (remember - they never knew that Padme was gonna head for Geonosis with Anakin). What is wrong with that picture?? ;) I'd say overkill...the Jedi were going to do more than juz rescue a fellow Jedi.

    The only way Dooku could have saved them was if they would have joined him. Then he could have had Poggle pardon them. I can't help but chuckle when the Jedi continually blame Dooku for that...when in actuality it was the Council's fault. How ironic...no wonder the Count left. [face_laugh]

    Labrynth of Evil even has Yoda mention that part of the reason why Dooku left the Order was because of Qui-Gon's death. [face_love] Wasn't that so sweet! ;) And of course the corruption in the Senate and the fact of the Jedi blindly following their lead. Ob-wan-shawa covered it all there in the first post :)
     
  10. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Yes, but I mean how do you go from leaving the Jedi order over your former Padawan being killed to joining the group who was directly responsible for your Padawan's death?

    Another funny thing, if Dooku was a JC member during PM then where is he in that Episode? I dont recall any empty chairs there either. [face_thinking]
     
  11. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004
    I do not believe Dooku was ever a Councilor... I don't recall that info anywhere. And I do not believe he'd ever really want to be one after what he was seeing. Prob like Qui. Didn't feel the need to become one or the want too.

    As for putting the blame on who killed Qui-Gon. Dooku ultimately blames the Council. He blames them for sending Qui-Gon there alone (Yeah he had Obi...but that's a Padawn...not another Master and/or Master/Padawan team). The Council did not believe him when had mention that the Sith could still be out there. The Council did not believe Qui when he had evidence. It took the man's death to prove to them that "Oh yeah...we have a Sith problem now..." Sometimes I wonder about the Council. Shoot I don't blame Dooku leaving...jeez I'd left earlier if I had been him.

    Inadvertantly (no actual footage except thru a comic...or a book can't remember where I read this at) Dooku joined Sidious to (yeah better himself and gain more power) help rid the Senate of corruption. Build the Republic back to its old glory.

    Dooku was one for always wanting more...(ironically enough him and Anakin have more in common than either one of them would like to admit too I'm sure) He thought himself 'better' as well. And Palpatine a.k.a. Sidious offered him juz that. I can see Sid playing Dooku like he plays Anakin in Ep III. The man is a master at manipulation. He twisted Dooku into believing that they could do it together. And utilized the Count's vast fortune for purchasing and expiditing droids for the massive army that was starting to be put together.

    I have always wondered where Palps would have gotten the money if he'd not had Dooku. [face_laugh] Oh well I'm sure he'd found another sucker to use. :_| Poor Dooku...
     
  12. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    This is from the CUSWE:


    [blockquote]Shortly before the Battle of Naboo, as Doooku sat on the Jedi Council, he decided to leave the Jedi Order after refusing to lead an ill-fated mission to Baltizaar, becoming one of the "Lost Twenty." [/blockquote]

    Now after a quick survey of the Dooku entry on the OS I don't see anything about that though. Hm... It does sort of makse sense, both for my story and for the movie, that for similar reasons as Qui-Gon, Dooku was not appointed to the council.

    sg

    edit: I asked this in another thread but got no answer, has anyone come upon a first/last name for Dooku btw? Did the Jedi prior to leaving the Order just call him Dooku?
     
  13. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004
    There is no record of the poor man having a full name. Sad isn't it? :( No respect for the poor old soul!

    Nope all there is on record is 'Dooku' being the name. I've adapted 'Yan' from another author (after receiving her permission googly...it's been so long ago that I can't recall off hand who that was... [face_blush] Great scots that is so bad...) I've seen a variety. Come up with your own first name if you want. Yan juz sounded so...I don't know sophisticated. Otherwise I was gonna use Kalis. But Yan was cooler I thought :D

    Hmm odd that he was stated on the Council in one area but never talked about in anything else. That is odd, wonder if it was a typo?
     
  14. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Thanks Kynstar, I'll probably make it up. I'm mostly concerned with what we see on screen anyway.

    yeah, I don't know about that bit about him being on the council. I use the CUSWE a lot for research and they always list their resources so perhaps there was a mention in some random book about it but the idea was never really adopted anywhere else.
     
  15. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Do clue me in once you do start it! [face_love] You know how I adore the man! [face_mischief]

     
  16. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    It's all part of the Force that Binds series (which I think you've been reading anyway. ;) ) Probably most of this will be used for Episode III when I finally get to it.

    sg
     
  17. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Ahhh sweet! :D I'll be looking forward to his parts then that's for sure! [face_mischief]

    You're doing great with that story btw! :D
     
  18. _JM_

    _JM_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Labyrinth of Evil. Page 134-136

    [blockquote]
    It was into such times that Dooku had been born, placed because of a strong connection to the Force among an Order that had grown complacent, self-involved, arrogant about the power they wielded in the name of the Republic. Turning a blind eye to injustices the Republic had little interest in eradicating, because of profitable deals forged among those who held the reins of command.

    While midi-chlorians determined to some degree a Jedi?s ability to use the Force, other inherited characteristics also plated a part- notwithstanding the Temple?s best efforts to eradicate them. Having hailed from nobility and great wealth, Dooku yearned for prestige. Even as a youngster, he had been obsessed with learning all he could about the Sith and the dark side of the Force. He had toed the Jedi line; become the Temple?s most agile swordmaster and instructor. And yet the makings of his eventual transformation had been there from the start. Without the Jedi ever realising it, Dooku had been as disruptive to the Order as would a young boy raised in slavery on Tatooine.

    His discontent had continued to grow and fester; his frustration with the Republic Senate, with ineffectual Supreme Chancellor Valorum, with the shortsightedness of the Jedi Council members themselves. A Trade Federation blockade of Naboo, rumours of a Chosen One found on a desert world, the death of Qui-Gon Jinn at the hands of a Sith?How could the Council members not see what was happening? How could they continue to claim that the dark side obscured all?

    Dooku had said as much to anyone who would listen. He wore his discontent on the sleeves of his robes. Though they hadn?t enjoyed the smoothest of student-teacher relationships, he and Yoda had spoken openly of the portents. But Yoda was living proof of the conservatism that came with extended life. Dooku?s true confidant had been Master Sifo-Dyas, who, while also disturbed by what was occurring, was too weak to take action.

    The Battle of Naboo had revealed that the Sith were back in the open, and that a Sith Lord was at work somewhere.

    The Sith Lord: the one born with the power needed to take the final step.

    Dooku had given though to seeking him out, perhaps killing him. But even what little faith he placed in the prophecy was enough to raise doubt that the death of a Sith could halt the advance of the dark side.

    Another would come, and another.

    As it happened, there had been no need to hunt for Sideous, for it was Sideous who had approached him. Sideous?s boldness surprised him at first, but it hadn?t taken long for Dooku to become fascinated by the Sith. Instead of a lightsaber duel to the death, there had been much discussion, and a gradual understanding that their separate visions for how the galaxy might be rescued from depravity were not so different after all.

    But partnership with a Sith didn?t make one a Sith.

    As the Jedi arts had to be taught so, too, did the power of the dark side. And so began his long apprenticeship. The Jedi warned that anger was the quickest path to the dark side, but anger was nothing more than raw emotion. To know the dark side one had to be willing to rise above all morality, to throw love and compassion aside, and to do whatever was necessary to bring about the vision of a world bought under control- even if that meant taking lives.

    Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sideous had continued to hold him at arm?s length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous. Sideous had recognised in Dooku the makings of a true accomplice- and equal from the other camp, already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duellist, a political visionary. But he needed to gauge the depth of Dooku?s commitment.

    One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has percieved the coming change, Sideous had told him. This one has contacted a group o
     
  19. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004
    As it happened, there had been no need to hunt for Sideous, for it was Sideous who had approached him. Sideous?s boldness surprised him at first, but it hadn?t taken long for Dooku to become fascinated by the Sith. Instead of a lightsaber duel to the death, there had been much discussion, and a gradual understanding that their separate visions for how the galaxy might be rescued from depravity were not so different after all.

    But partnership with a Sith didn?t make one a Sith.


    Yep yep ;) I agree totally with the end there. [face_laugh]

    Cool I did remember that right then about Dooku killing Syfo was a 'test' but also a necessity of Palps.

    Loved the bit about him seeing Tyranus as an equal - which Palps did not see that in any of his other apprentices. Not even Anakin. Cuz Anakin was still young and naive. (Powerful yes, but not knowledgeable of how to use his full power)

    Score one there for the vigorous Count! [face_love]
     
  20. _JM_

    _JM_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Actually since this is from Dooku's perspective, he's thinking about things, there is a possibility (especially with the extra information from RotS, Dooku's thoughts when he realises Palpatine was not going to follow the agreed plan, that Palpatine planned for Anakin to kill him are quite sad) that it is only that Dooku thinks Sideous sees him as an equal rather than this being the truth.
     
  21. Exeter

    Exeter Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    I think that is more likely. Though in some ways Dooku was probably closer to being his equal than any other, something tells me Sidious would never see it that way. He didn't seem to expect any trouble from Yoda and by the time ROTJ rolls around, he's treating Vader as little more than an amusing puppet. Unlike Maul, who probably knew nothing but the Sith and Vader who had lost everything, Dooku would be a powerful enemy to Sidious with his political connections, his considerable Force abilities, his fortune, and of course the fact that he had the ability to turn the CIS against his master if neccesary.

    For that reason, I think that Sidious would see no reason to shatter Dooku's illusion that they were equals, or that Sidious saw him as an equal. Hurting the pride of a man can be dangerous; doing it to a Sith could be deadly. Unlike Vader, who would have nowhere to turn nor any clout, Dooku doesn't seem like the kind of guy to take kindly to comments like "You, like the kid who's going to kill you, are now mine" and other constant derisive reminders of who's the Master and who's the apprentice. Obviously he's respective of Sidious, but I also don't think he was so heavily ingrained with the Sith and his place as an apprentice that he would be satisfied with taking the role of grovelling student.

    I mean, the guy's been studying the force for 80 years, he was a Jedi Master taught by Yoda, he bested Mace in lightsaber combat, had significant political experience and a personal fortune as the a titular head of Serenno, then starts a massive confederate movement that spirals beyond 10,000 planets and counts as his subordinate allies some of the most powerful business magnates in the galaxy. Would you be willing to take any higher-than-thou crap from anyone by that point?

    So, I think Dooku needed to see himself (and believe Sidious saw himself) as an equal of his Master, and I think Sidious also needed him to believe that. And what really is the harm? His plans for Dooku end in the man's death anyway. If it happened any other way and Dooku decided to move forward the treachery fake right in the Sith playbook, then Sidious' plans could be in jeopardy. He certainly needed Dooku as a full and willing partner to pull all of his machinations off, and that included small boosts to the old man's ego I'm sure.

    Again, I hope all of this banter is helpful and not just littering your thread.
     
  22. Kynstar

    Kynstar Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2004


    Yeah and Dark Rendezvous has Dooku stating he knew that Palpatine was going to perhaps eventually attempt to off him. At least when Asajj brings up that matter, Dooku is not shocked at all. He knows Palps has his eyes on the Skywalker brat. [face_laugh]

    I actually believed that eventually Sidious did consider Dooku a possible threat, probably one that he had never had to think about before. He is the master of manipulation and was able to continue to do so, but I think he knew that eventually that would not last. And as we see in the RotS novelation...Dooku was going to 'retire' any ways. He had no wants, no ambition to take out Sidious to become the new Master.

    :( Sad that Sidious didn't let Dooku retire. But he saw that the man could be a possible future threat and so encouraged Anakin to off Dooku. The fact that Sidious thought Dooku as a future possible threat raises my eyebrows!
     
  23. Lt_Murgen

    Lt_Murgen Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Here is another avenue of thought on this whole situation:

    Who paid for the Clone army and all of its weaponry?

    Now, I can imagine Sifo-Dyas going to Kamino, and making discussions with them on the army. But clones need raw materials, and clones need to be housed, fed, and clothed for the 10 years of thier training and development. These things cost money, even on a self-sufficient world like Kamino.

    So Sifo-Dyas begins to make casual inquiries. He talks to Dooku. Dooku has money, and connections, from his family history. But Sifo-Dyas also talks to a few senators who were pro-army, casually discussing costs and 'potential' funding. This brings him to the attention of Palpatine/Sidious, who sees this as a golden opportunity.

    Thus, the loop is closed. Dooku and Palpatine provide funding and secrecy, and the army gets built in secret.



    At least, that is my explanation. SW is not like Trek- money is a very REAL motivation in the SW universe. Few being act out of generosity. I cannot imagine the Kaminoians doing so. Who paid them, and how, is the TRUE key to this mystery.....

    and a major new plot bunny for myself!

     
  24. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    [blockquote]Who paid for the Clone army and all of its weaponry? [/blockquote]

    D'oh! :oops: You know I didn't even think about that point yet. Hm... Wouldn't it be ironic if somehow they managed to bamboozal the Trade Federation out of it. Hm..


    sg

    edit: okay well aside from that other idea, here's a thought. Perhaps the army was ordered but not paid in full up front, It was for The Republic, after all, and it was a "leading member of the Jedi Council" who was ordering the army. The Kaminoians (sp? :p) probably didn't think they were going to be stuck with the bill. It is possible, with all that in mind, that they either just required a minimum deposit or none at all.
     
  25. azog

    azog Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2005
    For whatever it's worth, in the "The Visual Guide to Episode III" they sort of casually throw out that Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas, and that Dyas did order the Clone Army, but didn't say why.
     
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