Dune's influence on Star Wars

I'm a big fan of both series. I know Frank Herbert felt Lucas "borrowed heavily" from Dune in creating SW. There are several loose parallels. I'll list the ones I can think of right now.

1. a desert planet (Tatooine/ Arrakis)

2. evil Empire and Emperor (Palpatine/ Shaddam)

3. presence of a quasi-religious order that possess almost supernatural powers (Jedi/ Bene Gesserit)

4. the Empire's crack troops (stormtroopers/ sardaukar) are eventually defeated by a primitive force (Ewoks/Fremen) led by the hero and friends

5. presence of a flamboyant, grotesquely malformed villain (Darth Vader/ Baron Harkonnen) who kills the hero's father-figure (Ben Kenobi/ Duke Leto) but also turns out to be related to the hero

6. hero (Luke/ Paul) is a young man with messianic qualities

7. a corrupt government that panders to special interests is replaced by a brutal totalitarian dictatorship

I can think of a few others. What do you guys think? Can you think of any more parallels?

 

Well, it's a stretch, but

- The hero (Leto II/Luke) has a twin sister who is supernaturally gifted as well.

- The hero (Paul/Anakin) become the antagonist.

- The hero-cum-antogonist (Paul/Anakin) sacrifices himself to redeem himself.

- The Children of the Antagonist (Leto II/Luke) redeem the evil of their forebears.

- The antagonists (Alia/Anakin) have mother issues regarding abandonment.

- Conformity brings about suffering (The Atriedes Jihad/The Empire).





Yeah, George is pretty much the most derivitive story teller today. It's kinda sad how few realize this.

 

there is a web site that goes into this in detail. i'm going to try to remember it and post it.

you guys seem to have covered alot though but i'll give it a whirl:

cloning - dune: tleilaxu
SW: kamino

spice - dune: psychic abilities, prolonged life
SW: in EU SW also gives some psychic ability

crysknife/ lightsaber -dune: the crysknife was an ancient sacred weapon used by paul atredies
SW: lightsaber was an ancient, basicly, sacred weapon used by luke/anakin skywalker

jedi/ bene geserit, ginaz sword masters, fremen - i think that an elements from all three of those dune groups can be found in the jedi: bene geserit-train from birth, use the "voice" which resembles the jedi mind trick, are a secretive sect with advanced fighting skills, are also psychic, advise rulers of houses.
ginaz sword masters- also train to fight for many years. are military leaders in some houses and adviser to the house rulers.
fremen- secretive, train to fight from birth and use the crysknife which is an ancient weapon resembling in some ways the skill needed to weild a lightsaber.

also here's a kind of far fetched one. but concerning precience which could be realted to the force in a way. alia falls pray to the power of precience and becomes "abomination" or possesed. this could almost be compared to falling to the dark side. especially in the way she falls considering she was using the spice trance to help her keep an edge in ruling the empire. it is almost like taking the quick and easy path which leads to the darkside.

VW

 

Those are good ones.

Here's a real stretch that was probably unintentional:

the hero (Luke/ Paul) has a charasmatic warrior friend (Han Solo/ Duncan Idaho) who "dies" and returns to marry the hero's sister

 

i agree, duncan is definatly the "han solo" of dune.

could chani be considered the amidala? she is the wife/consort of paul. paul resembles anakin due to the "chosen one" status that he has. chani gives birth to the twins and also dies which is part of the downfall of paul. i think that perhaps the death or presumed death of amidala could be one of the factors of anakins downfall.

we shall see...

 

It is sad to see how many places Lucas gets his story from.
Mythology
Fairy Tale
Dune
Asimov/Robot/Foundation
classic Films
Eastern influence
Historical events
other science fiction novels

He sort of blends all of them together but most of his ideas in Star Wars do not belong to him, he was not the first to think of them.

 

Good point about Chani and Amidala!

It is sad to see how many places Lucas gets his story from.

He sort of blends all of them together but most of his ideas in Star Wars do not belong to him, he was not the first to think of them.

SW is indeed derivative, but so is almost everything else. True, Lucas has borrowed ideas but he's also done a very good job of blending elements together to create a wonderful story and universe.

 

I give lucas credit for how he blends everything. He is not like JK Rowling who does not even try to hide where she gets her material for example the whole Larry Potter Harry Potter thing. Lucas does a great job of blending and hiding ideas from others.

 

It is sad to see how many places Lucas gets his story from.

Yeah....how sad.......I mean.......I enjoyed myths and sagas my whole life until reading your post. Now I get the feeling that all stories are derived from external elements.

Thanks a lot, George.........I'm through with Star Wars........Better yet....I'll stick solely to non-fiction from now on. Life is more entertaining than fiction anyway.....right?

Shizzz....

 

Maybe this one doesn't really count. The Trade Federation, Banker's Union, etc always reminded me a little of CHOAM and the Guild Bank. Of course, their actions in SW are different from those of their Dune counterparts.

 

Well, not really, if you think about it.

In AOTC (and likely EPIII), the Banking Guild, Trade Federation, etc . . . are all working against an evil totalitarian government body. The only difference between that and the Spacing Guild and CHOAM is that in Star Wars Dooku's character is kind of a saboteur for the movement, whereas DUNE has no such character.


Proud members of the Cult of Lucas just have trouble adjusting to the reality of Lucas' derivitivity. But they can always say "All things are derivitive," or, "You just don't get it," or, "It's George's story, accept it!" I have to assume that it's either witchery or insanity that keeps them mumbling their mantras like they do.




And Duncan Idaho rocks the hizzy. And so do all his gholas.

 

The problem I have is not really people not accepting Lucas' derisiveness, it's their attitude that what ever Lucas does is new or revolutionary. If you enjoy something, by all means continue enjoying it. But don't belittle the educated who see the pedigree and history of the foundation which upon Lucas stole many of his story elements.





I think I'm going to make a movie called "Transformation," and it's gonna be about this guy who turns into a moth. A completely CG moth. That has long soliloquies about the nature of existance. And then he'll fight an army of all-CG spiders with pitchforks at the end. All will call me genius. And apparently no one will get the joke.

 

not to start an EU discussion, but i did happen to notice that the whole story arc in new jedi order concerning the yuzon vong taking the galaxy system by system is pretty similar to what happens in dune 5 and 6. in heretics of dune and chapter house dune the honored matres come from out side the known universe and begin taking over system by system. in a very similar manner also. they also have strange technology and make slaves out of those people/planets they capture. i guess the major difference being that the honored matres are from the same galaxy to begin with but left during the scattering, whereas the vong are from another galaxy altogether. so far as i know that is.

 

Let's not forget that David Lynch turned down the opportunity to direct Return of the Jedi so that he could make Dune.

 

Also, the Sarlacc isn't all that different from the spice worm.

 

Yes Lucas is derivative, but so was Herbert.

The reason why so many of these space fantasies look so similar (Foundation, Dune, SW, ect) is that they all draw into the same heroic, epic mythos to create their stories and characters. Im am not saying that Lucas didn't take things directly from Dune, I am saying that perhaps many of these similarities stem from this mythos rather than actual "copying."

 

Hey, if you want to say Herbert used some basic archetypal elements (really only the Christ figure and Campbellian "Hero's Journey" are applicable), go right ahead and do it. But bear in mind that Herbert's religious and environmental aspects come straight from real life (such as notions of ecology and the Islamic religions of the Fremen), whereas Lucas' story elements come from, well, Herbert. And Kurosawa. And L. Frank Baum. And Asimov.

But mostly Herbert.




And about the touted "Campbellian Mythology" Lucas lauds himself on using, I don't think it's anything all that special. Themes such as "The Hero's Journey" and "The Learnèd Master" aren't exactly new-hat. Those things have been around since Gilgamesh and Moses and Beowulf and probably long before that. Can you imagine a hero's tale that didn't involve some kind of journey?

"Here we have Luke Skywalker, who will stay on Tatooine, drink some coffee, and paint the speeder."

See what I mean?




Anyway, Lucas is a hack. He's just either got a fanbase who is largely ignorant of other literature or just largely ignorant.

 

The funny thing is that when I first read Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune, I imagined Leto II looking like Jabba the Hutt. I'm guessing Herbert wouldn't have liked that.

I read someplace that Herbert was disappointed by SW's commerial success because he felt it would make it harder to make a movie out of Dune. Apparently studios didn't want to back it because it was so similar to SW.

The reason why so many of these space fantasies look so similar (Foundation, Dune, SW, ect) is that they all draw into the same heroic, epic mythos to create their stories and characters. Im am not saying that Lucas didn't take things directly from Dune, I am saying that perhaps many of these similarities stem from this mythos rather than actual "copying."

I agree. The tale of the "hero's journey" is as old and timeless as story-telling itself. These tales typically follow certain mythic themes, which is why newer ones appear derivative on close examination.

 

The funny thing is that when I first read Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune, I imagined Leto II looking like Jabba the Hutt. I'm guessing Herbert wouldn't have liked that.

Well I only know what happens in the first two Dune's, but my sci-fi teacher said when we watched ROTJ that GL took the design for Jabba from Dune

The skeleton that Threepio walks by in ANH when he is wandering the desert is also supposed to be a sandworm, as GL got the idea for Tatooine from Arrakis

But that sci-fi class gave me a serious Dune overload, now whenever anyone says "the spice" when referring to anything I'm always like, "Don't call it the spice!"

 

Anyway, Lucas is a hack. He's just either got a fanbase who is largely ignorant of other literature or just largely ignorant.

I fail to see your point. Is the audience not allowed to enjoy Star Wars for this reason? Do you not enjoy Star Wars because its fanbase does not understand what you unfairly call Lucas' lack of originality?

And if you do enjoy Star Wars, what is gained by naming its creator a hack? In doing so, it actually speaks more about you, your jealousy over another's talents to attract an audience, and your inability and insipidity to hold fast to your ideals by rejecting any and all fanfare (ie. TFN message boards, etc...) than about an individual who has made over a billion dollars on a derivative product. If what you say is true, then heck....more power to him. The funny thing is, though, I've never actually heard Lucas claim in his entire life that Star Wars was an original work utterly remote from any external influences. THAT should be the basis for your argument....not what some random fanboy with his comic books and video games in St. Louis might exude in idolatrous worship.....

If it bothers you so much, leave Star Wars for its fans. Unless you're trying to prove your creations deserve more attention. If so, now is the perfect opportunity..........

Spike Edit: Whoa there. Tone it down a bit.

 

Oh....and Kurasawa had a bigger influence on Lucas than Herbert did.

Perhaps we should remark, instead, on Lucas' ability to take the best themes from other works and meld them into something more universally popular.

 

The fact that GL was able to take from so many different sources and make a completely original and new universe that millions have fallen in love to me proves that he is a very intelligent man with a fantastic imagination

He takes from so many different sources that he's not plagerizing (sp?) any of them, and adds in enough of his own work to make everything done in a way no one had seen before

And the biggest influences on Lucas was in mythology classes, he basically sat in them, took notes, and transferred them from dealing with gods and stuff to dealing with space cowboys

A funny quote that relates to this

"If you steal from one source its plagerizing (sp?) but if you steal from many sources it's research"

Don't know where it's from but I like it

 

" Anyway, Lucas is a hack. He's just either got a fanbase who is largely ignorant of other literature or just largely ignorant.

Excuuuuuuuse me? I hold both a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in literature. I probably read more books in a week than most people read in a lifetime. I find this comment offensive and a flame to all SW fans, so you'd better cool it.

 

Many SW fans are also sci-fi and fantasy fans. They recognize that Lucas has had many influences. Most art is, to some extent, derivative, and most of it is not good enough to earn widespread popularity. The point is that Lucas has borrowed and mixed these ideas so well that the end product is one of the greatest and most loved movie series of all time.

 

Spike Edit: Whoa there. Tone it down a bit.

Thanks a lot, Spike. I thought that was rather witty banter that you deleted there.....