Dune's influence on Star Wars

Basically SW is Dune, Enter the Dragon(Jedi/Shao-Lin, Lando/Williams, Han/John Saxon's character, and a guy who always wants to get the good guys to turn bad) as well as many other SciFi and Fantasy media. We can definitely say that he meshed them all pretty well though, into true mythology.

Anyone notice the similarties of Harry Potter to Ender's Game????

 

Thanks for that article elfdart. I think it's ironic that the current LOTR films, in my mind, are a better telling of the story than the books. Apart from being overly long, the films, so far, seem to have distilled out the best bits from the books and, thankfully, given the bad guys some menace. The films also don't suffer from the pedestrian prose of the books nor the more whimsical/awful elements like Tom Bombadill.

 

Well, this isn't very related, but I've read somewhere that there was an attempt to produce the Dune movie in the 70's, and that people involved in this production claimed that SW "borrowed" a lot from their work.

I'm not if that's true, but SW really draws a lot from other other elements and blends it togheter. That's no secret, of course.

About Dune, I really don't think they are all that connected, but I don't know Dune that well. What I can tell is that generic similarities like CHOAM and the Trade Federation, or the Empire/Empire are just that, similarities. They are more or less based on the SAME historical examples.

 

Delance, I heard of this and I've seen one example. Jean Giraud (better known to Comic fans as Moebius)was one of the conceptual designers on the unfinished Dune and on one of his drawings there are some pillars in the background that look exactly like the feet of the AT-AT's. Interesting but probably just coincidence

 

Anyone notice the similarties of Harry Potter to Ender's Game????

I hadn't. I'm a big Ender's Game fan but am not very familiar with Harry Potter (I've seem both movies but don't remember much). Can you elaborate?

 

You know the more I watch Star Wars I see less and less influence form Dune and LOTR. In fact there seems to be more influence form storys about King Arthur and the other storys that came form there.

Why is that simple:

Gandalf = Merlin

Aragon = Arthur

and so on. But then again The storys of Kind Arthur came form some where else and so on.

 

-as a huge fan of dune and star wars, i do see many borrowed elements, of which have already been posted
-anybody remember an old issue of wizard where they pitted paul against luke? paul calls up a sandworm in the end that eats luke
-dune borrows from many elements of history and real life. herbert did extensive research into the subjects of religion, ecology, government, society, etc. star wars, lucas will readily admit, borrows a lot from eastern mythology and mysticism
-i am a social studies teacher in a highschool, and last year we tried something by blending social studies and english classes in order to study campbell's hero cycle. we had students write about the hero cycle, and we showed them ESB, at my behest. i tried in vain to get the classes to read dune, but we really didn't have enough time. one of my students brought up a point that luke completes anakin's cycle, and that luke's adventures were merely an extension of his father's. we also studied the odyssey, which is another great example of the hero cycle, and beowulf, gilgamesh, the legend of arthur, and others. star wars is much alike many of these stories because their themes are timeless. they all involve a young hero (almost always exclusively male) who has some type of exile, return, etc. however, just because dune took place on a desert planet does not mean that lucas stole arrakis and made it tatooine. same thing goes for the bene gesserit, the baron, the imperium, and all others. sci-fi/fantasy mainly operates on the premise of the hero cycle. herbert himself was influenced by many works before him (foundation, anyone?) same as lucas. point here is that everybody borrows from everybody. even the guy who wrote gilgamesh over 4000 years ago borrowed it from someone else's story, i am sure.

 

I think people are really stretching this. Both stories take from classic elements. Really, people are saying stuff like,

"OMG! Both are stories about a young man turning into a hero!"

"OMG! Both have an oppresive Empire that spawns a small rebellion that ends up winning!"

"OMG! Both have a 'David vs Goliath' battle!"

Every story includes these things. From the young Hero to the wise old hermit.

Cometgreen

 

This is a stretch but Yoda's "fear leads to anger..." speech from TPM reminds of the Bene Gesserit's litany against fear.

 

No, the "Fear leads to anger" speech is stolen almost word-for-word from the autobiography of the current Dalai Lama. Well, at least that's where I read it. For all I know the Dalai Lama has taken them from somewhere else.

 

Really! Makes perfect sense, but I never knew that. Very interesting!

 

God, I thought this Thread had died a natural death a Year ago! Talk about flogging a dead horse...

 

Flog on! Let's keep this patient alive!

 

Or we could let it die a quiet & natural death...Kavorkian style!

 

I've been catching hints from everywhere to go back and read Dune again....

 

Greetings,

No insults to other people.

Lets take a look:

(1) Emperor and Baron vs Heroe in Dune, Emperor and Lord Vader vs Hero in Star Wars

(2) Spice Mines of Arrakis in Dune, Spice Mines of Kessel in Star Wars

(3) Fremen walk in single file to avoid detection in Dune, Sand People do the Same thing in Star Wars

(4) Sand Crawlers exist in both

(5) Obvious Desert Planet comparison

(6) Villian is Hero's Grandfather in Dune, his father in Star Wars

(7) Obvious Giant Worm Comparison

(8) Bene Gesserits use their voice to command weak minded fools, Jedi Mind tricks do the same thing in Star Wars

In the words of Herbert: "Lucas at least owes me a dinner."

Is this plagarism? No. One's about drugs and one's about crazy old aliens hanging out in swamps.

And with that we take a 24 hour vacation.

 

"1. a desert planet (Tatooine/ Arrakis)
2. evil Empire and Emperor (Palpatine/ Shaddam)
3. presence of a quasi-religious order that possess almost supernatural powers (Jedi/ Bene Gesserit)
4. the Empire's crack troops (stormtroopers/ sardaukar) are eventually defeated by a primitive force (Ewoks/Fremen) led by the hero and friends
5. presence of a flamboyant, grotesquely malformed villain (Darth Vader/ Baron Harkonnen) who kills the hero's father-figure (Ben Kenobi/ Duke Leto) but also turns out to be related to the hero
6. hero (Luke/ Paul) is a young man with messianic qualities
7. a corrupt government that panders to special interests is replaced by a brutal totalitarian dictatorship "


I think that Frank Hervert invented none of these things. Desert planets existed long before him: See Flash Gordon. Also Herbert didnt invent empires(Roman Empire, etc.).

 

I'm sure Herbert was a bit ticked off that Lucas beat him in the success of SW.

If Herbert were alive and I were GL, I'd love to take Herbert out for dinner. Why not two?

 

Once again, anyone who tries to deny GL was influenced by 'ANYONE' and that everything he did was TOTALLY original needs their head examined. Or they need to start a cult of GL, but elsewhere. Hell I love SW and respect GL, but to say he wasn't influenced by major works in the Sci-Fi Space Opera field like Dune is so totally silly !!
What are you people going to claim he invented space opera too !?!

Like all good filmakers Lucas was able to meld great ideas, create some, adapt some, borrow some and steal some. The talent lies in 'HOW' he put them together, not that he should be this amazing God like creator of totally new ideas and was never influenced by anyone or thing ! Please ! Why is it people are willing to see the 'film' influence on SW but act like mindless cultists when you cite literary influence. There's even a bunch of crazies out there who want to minimise the influence of Campbell on Lucas !!!

GL is a clever man, but didn't create SW in an idea's vacuum !!! To deny that he took others idea's and made them his own is to deny him credit for one of his great skills. No story teller doesn't build on the tales before his.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

And that can be Arrakis or Tatooine, it doesn't matter folks.

SHB JR

 

I just bought Dune toady and am going to start it tomorrow after work. I got into Star Wars last month!

Since I've never read any sci-fi I'm a little saddened that Star Wars isn't as original as I thought it was but it's also cool to take something that exists and making something new out of it - like samples in techno music, that can be cool and it's no disrespect to the original artists.

 

Has anyone claimed Star Wars is 100% original? No. So why set up straw men?

There are many things that were an influence on Lucas and Star Wars (see the list I compiled). There are others. But Dune isn't one of them. Deal with it.

 

Just curious...does anyone have a timeline listing the major "SPACE OPERAS"? It seems like such a specific thing to be such a wel developed genre, if you get what I mean.

 

SHB JR: Elfdart, elfdart, don't try to frighten us with your Sorcerer?s words. Your devotion to that ancient Lucasfilm propoganda has not helped you find compelling arguements, nor conjure up the Dune fan's hidden motives..ack !! (chokes)

Tarkin : elfdart ! Release him !

elfdart: As you wish. I find you lack of faith disturbing....



Why is it such a big deal for you to accept Dune's influence on SW ? It's so very clear and takes nothing from SW, yet you behave as if it were a great insult.
Hey, I only like Dune a little, and love SW with a love like nothing else, but I'm willing to see them.
I'm proud of the fact that these two sci-fi stories of the 20th century are so bound. I admire GL for his taking some of Dune's concepts and making them work in his universe.

It almost seems like a 'faith' issue with you.
So SW strongly influenced by Dune ? It isn't blasphamy you know
Given the 'facts' (and the logical arguments for 'yes it was' are so much clearer than thoses against, which seem to meander into semantics and just plain 'no it isn't cause I said so, deal with it !) the influence is clear as a bell.

This of course, elfdart takes nothing from SW, but rather enriches it, giving it a link to lituary Sci-fi from whence the whole genre sprang in the first place.
Read Doc EE Smith for more of the kind of stuff that GL adapted so well, or Asimov or Pohl, the list goes on and on.

You seem to equate admitting an influence from Dune as a 'bad' thing, when actually it's a good thing !

SW doesn't live in quite the cultural cul de sac you want to believe, divorced from lituray Sci-fi influenced only by other movies.
It's lituray roots, including dune, are deep and strong.
GL's story is original to a degree, most of his 'worlds' aren't.

So deal with that

Yours SHB JR

 

I am not some sort of acolyte for Lucas or Star Wars. I'm a big fan, though. I am an even bigger fan of logic, reason, and facts.

Look, I think Gone With The Wind was pure Harlequin Novel crap -and racist as hell, to boot. But there are a number of similarities between some plot points, characters, names, etc. and SW. Considering that GWTW is still the biggest movie of all time, these similarities are more than a coincidence, and it's most likely that (for example) Lucas named one of the ships the "blockade runner" because of Rhett Bulter, who as a charcter was a big influence on the creation of Han Solo. Lucas even changed Solo from being a clone of Francis Coppola to being a "Clark Gable" type. So yes, there is some influence of GWTW on Star Wars. Clark Gable as Rhett Butler, the blockade runner was one-of-a-kind.

What specifically is Dune's contribution to SW? Desert planets? Galactic Empires? Spice trading? Nomads? Messianic figures? These things were cliches before Herbert was born and are featured in sources that share MUCH more in common with SW. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, for starters. Flash Gordon is another. Dune's "similarities" to SW are just people groping for straws. One was "biblical name for hero". This sort of thing couldn't be funnier -especially since people take it seriously.

 

As far as the subject of influence is concerned, if you're a movie maker and you're going to be influenced by the works of others, then at least be influenced by the best.

Dune is widely regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi works of all time. To think that such a work wouldn't or shouldn't influence a young up-and-coming filmmaker borders on ridiculous.

That said, Dune is hardly a completely original work. Any creative mind would have to exist in a bubble to not be influenced by other works. The idea of a hero enduring hardship in the desert and being "purified" for his destiny harkens back as far as The Bible and probably further back than that.

The use of quasi-religious orders is fairly common in all myth-making. The fact that two prominent works of science fictin use is is hardly surprising.