Empire vs. Rebellion (ver 2.1) Back where it belongs!!!

Jedigirl, thankee for thy praise, 'tis greatly appreciated,

Jedi Corran Horn, in response to your "Let me rephrase the previous question, do you believe they should have done it?" I have to say "No" one simple reason, women and children died in the blast - good military strategy it probably was, but still...For my fellow Imps - don't worry, I feel the same about such things whether in SW or anywhere else - especially our own world (Allied destruction of 80 churches in the Balkan Conflict angered me somewhat - as those of you reading a few pages ago will have noticed). But the whole airstrike was for the good purpose of preventing genocide...so, where do we draw the line? Hmmm?

Santee, where is your info on Thrawn coming to power throught sudden assault? In the XW series he seems quite content to totter around the UR and serve under Isard. Pellaeon recollects that Thrawn returned, choosing P's ISD especially for his own purpose - there's no mention of bloodthirsty lunacy. I just read GMJ's post and agree wholeheartedly with what he says.

Peaceful transfer of power? Think back, chaps, to ancient Rome. Look at the behaviour of their empire. After a while the military leader who was most popular with his troops became the Emperor - it really messed up territorial expansion. Daala only killed the leaders because a) they were idiots, and b) she had the support of Pellaeon - widely respected by the common soldiery for his close association with Thrawny.

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I agree that no military leader can take over unless the people want him or her to. More to the point, I believe that no leader can rule without the consent of the citizenry. But how do you select that leader? There has got to be a mechanism for the peaceful transfer of power to create a viable government.
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No leader with sufficient military might needs the consent of the citizens. You select the leader by grooming a replacement. Most Imperial leaders - Thrawn, Palpaatine, Isard - were removed from office before they could do so. This was their fault for failing to prepare for their own demise - one of the few constants in life is death.

Uniforms - not the Imp colouring - far too Nazi for me - it's more the style of 'em - brisk, efficient, fundtional.

Palpy's government not having the support of the people? What about all the old core worlds that supported him? Do we ignore people because they have stupid and racist ideas? Do we ignore the power of the Ku Klux Klan or the British Nationalist Party? They have dumb ideas but they are still "the people".

Thrawn had to use the Katana Fleet and cloning because of one of these reasons - a) in Zahn's EU Imp resources were far more depleted than in most later lit, b) most of his forces were tied up in garrison duty.

"Your response to social darwinism still does not give a peaceful solution to the way a government should be able to transfer its leadership. The reasoning behind that is one where the strongest survives, thus weakening siad government and ruling with use of much resources to gain the leaderhip of the holdings. How is that supposed to make a faction strong?"

What the heck does this mean? If only the strongest survive then all the weak are dead or otherwise removed and the government is composed of only the strongest elements. Thi means that the government is better and stronger. What did you mean to say, Santee? Because this cannot be it. D'oh! GMJ already replied to it. I admit now I'm just answering stuff as I read down the page. Ah, well, more reiterations to come, then.

Santee, "peaceful transfer of power" does invlove the squandering of resources. Could somebody please check exactly how much it cost to run Clinton's last presidential campaign for me. I believe it was at least in the tens of millions of dollars area. If this isn't squandering resources then what is?

Besides, Thrawn doesn't seem to have lost anything running his Empire as h

 

Santee- the Imperial fighting for position and power is identical to the long, drawn out campaigning of "democratic" nations, only quicker and more crisp. Take the US presidential election. In essence, the candidates are trying to destroy each other. Typically, after a presidential election, the loser has very little of his career left, because in most cases, his reputation has been butchered by the other. Mudslinging is commonplace, and cheap shots are applauded by political analysts. Why not put them into a ring with spiked clubs and be done with it? The campaign process is much more painful than any war over leadership would ever be. How can you say that the NR didn't waste incredible amounts of resources when they changed leaders? Heck, I mean, Fey'la was looking for blackmail and info on everyone way back in the Thrawn Trilogy. So, by your own logic, the NR government is even worse than the Imperial government for wasting time and resources during all the governmental scandals and what not that the up and ups in their "government" have caused.

GMJ

 

Yowsers, GMJ, are we twins? We just have the exact same responses to the Rebellion's statements! Salutations, dear chap, and best wishes!

MTFBWY

 

Ah but then with all the mudslinging, and all the verbage, no one really loses in terms of their life. In tersm of resources, this is what I am talking about.

1. Equipment- All the infighting among the warlords, moffs, and sector commanders over who was the overall leader used equipment that could have been better used in the war against the NR. But it was used up.
2. Men - Same thing, just a tad bit more important. Men take time to train, and when you constantly lose more amongst yourselves because of the constant infighting, you are wasting a resource that is needed for you foighting fleets and troops.
3. Information - Wasted when it is used to only find out about your political opponent.

Of these three main resources, there are probably more I am just sticking to these so far, Political infighting primarily uses the last. The empire wasted a lot on all three. That is one big reason why Thrawn had such a small force to work with. The political backstabbing causes the loser to lose a reputation, which can be rebuilt, or if it is a true reputation, never really taken away.

 

It's possible to put a price on training troops and crafting weapons of war. What if the Rebel method is the more expensive?

 

Want me to be serious just once? Okay, here I go. Watch this.

Santee - you're right. You're absolutely right - had the Empire used their resources like rational beings, they had probably won. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a rational being, or have you ever met one? I - IRL - have had several jobs in my life so far, and 'evil' reigned supreme everywhere. Nowadays I work in a company with a central administration of about 800 people. It's the best job I ever had, and I love it. But: There, too, the same backstabbing and resource-sqandering is going on as was in all the other companies I worked at, and it's the same in the SW Empire; many people of the middle management level even left because of it... and now the nasty thing: they returned. They returned because it was even worse elsewhere.

So how can one not feel familiar when seeing/reading about the Empire? It's realistic. It's just like the real world. If one discovers someplace where people actually seem friendly and caring - it must be a sham. It's probably an obscure sect intent on squeezing all the money out of your wallet.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE ALLIANCE/NR IN REAL LIFE.
This is pure fantasy. I know very well that SW is fantasy, but I feel more comfortable with a bit of realism, which is why I'm in support of the Empire.

Sgt Crowfield

"Nothing is impossible for the man who does not have to do it himself"
-Weiler's law-

 

Santee
Granted the NR has not fought a civil war amongst itself, but that does not denote a good government. Most governments become better after a little bloodshed. I hate to say it but it's true. Look to history it will tell you. Why can this infighting not just be a little heat treating of the steel?

 

And that is one reason why the NR is the working government, because it is close to real life, as in the political working parallel the primary authors home politics. Ah but wouldnt you rather just waste wirds than your fellow workers lives, people?

The Empire was founded on a dictatorship. When the Emperor disbanded the Imperial Senate, he lost all support for the imperial way of life, basically because he so centralized the government, that any and all decision had to be left up to him. This left no form of government that represented what the people wanted. To give a reallife example, and if I remember my history correctly, Cromwell wanted to get rid of the Royalty of England, and to bring in the power of the people, correct? Only thing was that when he gained the power for Parliament, it went to his head. He disbanded parliament, not allowing them to meet and run the government as represented by the people. He ended up making decisions that the people did not want, and ended up losing his position in battle to the Royals once again. Something that the american tried was somewhat similar to the original Alliace. a government that was run with the approval of all the allied nations yet did not have any true power. The Confederation is what I am talking about here. Now that didn't work. When that didn't work, the american government we see today is what was formed. And it has worked well so far. Even though it is only 200 yrs old, it is now the power that everyone else looks to. Why is that? Because the people that make up this country have had the freedom and the representation to rule themselves, not having just one person make decisions for them.

As for the backstabbing crow, I am in the same sort of Job, whereas I love what I do, but politics is a part of it no matter where I go. I have gotten used to it, and just deal with it in my own way, by stating the truth no matter how much it affects me. Of course my own view is that to be able to hold office one has to have served in the armed forces at one time. To show that in some way that person understands why this country of ours should still survive.

Well if I wasn't clear, I apoligize, I just would much rather see people talk out problems than kill others because they feel that they might be a good leader. That is not the way to make use of your resources. Even Thrawn knew that.

 

You know what?

The empire very strongly remind me of the communists countries, especially under Staline (gee, his name even sound a bit like "Palpatine"). However, you get the Communist to collapse and then you have all those little civil wars that flare up everywhere (think about Bosnia and Kosovo). Then you get the U.N. (or the U.S., depend) trying to stop all that while leaving the countries free.

Now in S.W. we got a very dictatorial empire, wich do look like the communism of Staline days. It uses main force to keep species from fighting each others and to keep planets to separate, similarly to what U.S.S.R. did.

Then you got the other guys, the good guys rebeling. The empire collapse and the good guys start to give more freedom and power to each planet. Then as soon as they can find a pretext, the planet that where held silent by the empire go up in flame. Then the N.R. go around trying to quiet everyting down but withoug much succes.

Yes, I do think that the Empire is much like the communist states and the NR (at least the Hand of Thrawn NR) is like the United Nations.

 

You know what?

The empire very strongly remind me of the communists countries, especially under Staline (gee, his name even sound a bit like "Palpatine"). However, you get the Communist to collapse and then you have all those little civil wars that flare up everywhere (think about Bosnia and Kosovo). Then you get the U.N. (or the U.S., depend) trying to stop all that while leaving the countries free.

Now in S.W. we got a very dictatorial empire, wich do look like the communism of Staline days. It uses main force to keep species from fighting each others and to keep planets to separate, similarly to what U.S.S.R. did.

Then you got the other guys, the good guys rebeling. The empire collapse and the good guys start to give more freedom and power to each planet. Then as soon as they can find a pretext, the planet that where held silent by the empire go up in flame. Then the N.R. go around trying to quiet everyting down but withoug much succes.

Yes, I do think that the Empire is much like the communist states and the NR (at least the Hand of Thrawn NR) is like the United Nations.

 

<<rats...

[This message has been edited by Sgt Crowfield (edited 01-12-2000).]

 

...I...

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...knew it!>>



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<<hope this ain't going to multi-post again, I tried to send it about a hundred times and my ISP failed me each time...>>

Santee - my country denied me serving in its military ... so far. Which is another point for the Empire's realism: they, too, discriminate against women. I feel very much at home there

 

Just trying to see the new posts, the last one I am able to see before this was mine from last night.

 

Don't the people have the right to rebel against a government if they feel it is not being run the way the feel is appropriate? Isn't that what we did?

And EVEN IF Alderaan didn't do their best to expunge the Rebel Alliance, you don't think the destruction of an entire planet, and the billions of beings living there, by a weapon of mass destruction built specifically to destroy planets was, well a bit of overkill?

I mean, what kind of government builds a weapon that can destroy planets in the first place? Or a weapon that destroys stars, weapons that are named 'World Devastators'. What do you think that is for? Gardening?

What about the poeple on the planet who supported the Empire? Or, the billions of innocent citizens who had no idea there was rebellion on their planet?

You attempt to justify the destruction of a planet by saying it was the only way to preserve the Empire. Alderaan was not going to be the straw that broke the bantha's--err Empire's back.

So, we arbitraily decided the Empire was evil? We had no good reasons for doing this? We decided it would be fun to loose our loved ones on a chance decision?

Your instistence that the Rebel Alliance tried to stop "good", by being "evil" is ridiculous. I will sy it again. The Empire didn't listen, so we fought back.

How many times have I said this? The Emperor was a supreme ruler. Not only that, but he didn't even ask if he could disband the Imperial Senate. He just went ahead with his crazy delusions of being a meglomaniac. Would you like to live in a dictatorship? I know I wouldn't. I would have been fighting for citizens involvement in government.

Tenebrae

No matter what you rebels say you started a conflict with no better reason than your own profits were being taken away by the Empire and you wanted them back, the leaders of the rebellion were all well off until the Empire started trying to redistribute wealth and when it started getting put about they all decided the Empire was "evil".

Well, I don't think I got the meaning of this that you wanted to convey, but if something that was 'ours' was being taken away, don't we have the right to take it back?

What is all this talk about the Empire redistributing wealth?

If we decide that something is evil, how can you say we are wrong? It's our belief. No one can tell another what they are thinking.

Simply put, we thought the Empire was taking away our liberties, and choices, so we fought back. What's wrong with that?

Also, what of my point that if a government cannot effectively handle a civil war, that it doesn't deserve to rule?

I still haven't seen a good explanation for the Empire using slavery. I don't suppose I will ever get one either. I have sorta given up.

 

Interesting Crow, and your from Germany right? I used to live there back in the early 80's, when I was a wee little thing. I can sorta understand that old world discrimination against the fairer sex. In some ways it makes for a rather quaint attitude, but in most cases it just deprives of another set of eyes and more importantly the more intuitive minds. But that is another side to this aspect. And we could go on discussint that until the sky fell down. But it doesn't belong here.

On a side note, from this station, I cannot seem to pull up anything past the last note of mine. So I will hold off responding on these until later on tonight.

 

I'd like to make a point from where it all started. The Old Republic began it with the banishment of the Sith. We Sith typically got ticked and tried to take our revenge. It was the Great Sith War you defeated us once again and we fell quiet. So Palpatine became a Sith Lord During that time I think we know who he is by now *ahem* In Episode 1. He put together a little plan to get the Sith's revenge that they so had to get and it worked. My point is that the Old Republic started it with banishement of the Sith or Dark Jedi. We just wanted revenge.

 

Emperor Darth Nemesis,

We just wanted revenge

Oh, well I am glad that all you wanted was a little revenge. I was hoping--vainly it seems--that the Sith had some sort of higher aspiration then waging war.

Anyone else think that Sith have a little bit too much childhood angst inside them? A little "I'm angry at mom and dad, so I will grow up to be Sith Lord"?

Speaking of which, what does a parent of a Sith Lord say to their kid? "Good for you!", or maybe "What did I do?!"

 

As far as total percentages go, the amount of deaths at Alderran was less of an impact on the population as a whole than the US's attacks on Vietnamese villages.

GMJ

 

GMJ who gives a toss about percentages, human life is human life. And if killing innocents lives in Vietnam wasn't enough for you why don't you have a look at the American Government bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2. Out of all the history on this planet this is the closest so-far to the Alderaan incident, why don't you try comaparing them with figures and percentages. Make yourself at home.

 

I'll say it again, since you are all after comparing what the Empire did to Alderaan with something from our world, why don't you think about : China, 1989 - many students slaughtered because they where occupying place Tien'an'men(sp?) to bring more democracy.

- There are many others such exemple that match the empire actions. And most of them where condemned by the rest of the world.

The Empire did not respect the freedom of people to have their opinions and voice them (they arrested Kyp parents because they condemned the destruction of Alderaan)

The Empire devastated Caamas, Alderaan, Honoghr and many other worlds.

The Empire created many weapons with the capacity to destroy planets or weapons that where designed with planetary devastation firmly in mind. (Death Star, World Devastators, Eclipse Star Destroyers, Sun Crusher and probalby some other I forgot)

The empire used torture.

The Empire was not an elected governement.

The Empire used slave.

The Emperor had most of his political opposants either arrested or assassinated. (Bel Iblis, Kyp's parents, Leia, Bail Organa...)

Regarding Alderaan and so on, they have been said by many empire supporter to be "reasonable losses of war. Really?

Reasonable losses of war include (at least the way I see thing)
-Victims of collateral damage.
-Military vessels, troops and machinery
-Military bases

Alderaan do not fall in either of those three category, neither do Honoghr (sp?) or Caamas, or the Outbound flight, or the Jedis, or Gantoris people on Dantooine, or the civilian cities of Mon Calamari (the shipyard, however, are reasonable war losses).
Granted, the US-destroyed villages where not reasonable war losses, nor the victim of Allied or Axis city-bombing.

Palpatine and his strategy strongly remind me of Josef Staline, or even Hitler.

 

I'll say it again, since you are all after comparing what the Empire did to Alderaan with something from our world, why don't you think about : China, 1989 - many students slaughtered because they where occupying place Tien'an'men(sp?) to bring more democracy.

- There are many others such exemple that match the empire actions. And most of them where condemned by the rest of the world.

The Empire did not respect the freedom of people to have their opinions and voice them (they arrested Kyp parents because they condemned the destruction of Alderaan)

The Empire devastated Caamas, Alderaan, Honoghr and many other worlds.

The Empire created many weapons with the capacity to destroy planets or weapons that where designed with planetary devastation firmly in mind. (Death Star, World Devastators, Eclipse Star Destroyers, Sun Crusher and probalby some other I forgot)

The empire used torture.

The Empire was not an elected governement.

The Empire used slave.

The Emperor had most of his political opposants either arrested or assassinated. (Bel Iblis, Kyp's parents, Leia, Bail Organa...)

Regarding Alderaan and so on, they have been said by many empire supporter to be "reasonable losses of war. Really?

Reasonable losses of war include (at least the way I see thing)
-Victims of collateral damage.
-Military vessels, troops and machinery
-Military bases

Alderaan do not fall in either of those three category, neither do Honoghr (sp?) or Caamas, or the Outbound flight, or the Jedis, or Gantoris people on Dantooine, or the civilian cities of Mon Calamari (the shipyard, however, are reasonable war losses).
Granted, the US-destroyed villages where not reasonable war losses, nor the victim of Allied or Axis city-bombing.

Palpatine and his strategy strongly remind me of Josef Staline, or even Hitler.

 

Santee, the Emperor didn?t lose all support ? the books are full of references to ?evil? and ?cruel? people who supported him 100 percent. Cromwell wasn?t thrown out of England in a battle ? the ?Lord Protector? ? as he was known ? ruled my little land until his death ? with an iron fist (he banned the giving of Christmas gifts!). His son then took over but was weak and was ejected and then Charles II triumphally returned from France..and began gathering *****s from throughout the land so as to enjoy his reign better. The Americans do have the most power, that I don?t dispute, but have they always been truly democratic? According to the laws they had at the time, the treaties that they had made, and their own tradition, the Confederacy was entitled to separate itslf from the Union. I don?t like the Confederac, I don?t like slavery, but there it is. I like thy idea about people serving in the forces ? very Starship Troopers!

Lowbacca, yes, they?re similar, but it?s generally spelled Stalin, he succeeded Lenin. There are indeed certain similarities between the U.S.S.R and the Empire.

Sarge, I had no idea Germany (I believe the .de stands for Deutshcland {?}) didn?t allow women in its armed forces, how intriguing. I wonder what their reasoning is?I can?t say anything nasty about it as we Catholics are ? for a reason I can?t relate as I?ll get shot down ? against women priests. Still, commiserations.

Silencer-7, world destroying weapons in SW are the equivalent of nation destroying weapons on Earth. Every major power save Japan has the things! I don?t recall anybody saying that Alderaan?s destruction was the only way to deal with it ? I said that the Empire didn?t do it, but Tarkin did ? see my earlier post on this for more information. As for fighting against a system, where ye have no say in the decision making process I think I?ll go and attack the Prime Minister of my country with a great big pointy stick because he has decided to release a load of criminals from the IRA so as to butter up their leaders?oh, wait, I won?t I?m too listless, because the government?s decisions are never up to par. Either they do everything right or I?ll take over?oh, wait, no, people would have opinions that I don?t have?ah, well. You don?t ask if ye can disband the senate. Hitler didn?t ask to be allowed to permit people only to vote for the Nazis in one of Germany?s elections after they?d come to power (I forget which, it?s years since I studied this ? sometime after ?33, obviously). You just do it. Speed and planning are useful, being seen to be weak is not. I already live in a dictatorship, it?s just called a democracy to look better. Democracy, however, doesn?t work well when ye have 60 million people uncertain about for whom they ought to vote. How else did various nutters get in through this process?

The empire must have redistributed wealth if it made people slaves. They would have lost their rights to own property and the property would have been taken by the state or by the slave?s owner. There are other ways, but this is the easiest to recount quickly. There is no good reason for the Empire to use slavery, it?s that simple, not in terms of construction workers, anyway. Skilled workers, however, are expensive, and this is an inovative ? although somewhat excessive ? way of cutting wage costs.

If a government can?t effectively handle a civil war it deserves to lose? Are you mad? The number of democratic regimes in the Third World that have gone under because of rebellions is staggering. Often these new regimes employ torture to discover their enemy?s plans. Their violent assumption of power causes great distress and damages the economy. Be serious! As a small green muppet once said: ?Wars not make one great!?

Santee, intuitive, eh, hah, bet ye don?t know what I?m thinking?yeah, it was a blank spot in my mind where I wasn?t thinking anything?that?s fairly common with men ? we just drift away and shut our minds off.

Corran, thy own government uses percentages! Why else were 80 churches (Yep, I?m back on that again) bombed in

 

Santee: You lived in Germany? Interesting...

Captain: Yes, the .de stands for Deutschland... and they didn?t allow women in their armed forces except for medical and music corps duty (bull****). A few days ago the European Court declared this practice illegal. I wonder if this decision will ever make a difference... we'll see.
Hey, I was a Catholic, too. This might become an interesting debate... I'd say let's continue it somewhere else before we get stoned by the Council members !