ST Episode 3 vs Episode 9 buildup

The real question is why do you hate ABBA so much?

 

If there was a SW movie set to Abba songs would you see that?

 

Only if Emperor Palpatine sings The Winner Takes It All.

 

Well i don't know about you, but i read a lot of commentaries (here and on other sites) when the rumor saying they would cancel spin off movies came out, and a lot of them were basically "screw the sequels, we want obi wan spin off and solo 2"
you will not tell me that these peoples hate the sequels because they are rethreading with already seen premises. Yes the ST is Empire 2.0 vs Rebels 2.0 (and i, too, would have prefered something new... but TLJ is not responsable for this situation, and i would even say that it did its best to make sure episode IX could not be a remake of ROTJ) but there are a few elements that could make the outcome very different.
I liked the Solo movie, but what was it? Basically it was like Han Solo telling us "hey kid, do you want me to tell you about when i won the Millenium Falcon from Lando in a party of Sabac? Yes? Well here is the story... once upon a time... I won the Millenium Falcon from Lando... in a party of Sabac!"
"Hey kid wanna know how i met Chewbacca and how we became best friends? Yes? Well once upon a time, i met Chewbacca... and we became best friends!"
Rogue one has the same problem (but to a lesser extent to be honest). You will not make me believe that the peoples who crave for more movies in this vein want originality... they want something safe, something they already know the outcomes, and i think it's a little sad

 

It's weird for me because although I definitely enjoy the ST more than the PT, I'm less excited about Episode 9 than I was for Episode 3.
I enjoy the ST's characters much more than I enjoyed the characters in the PT, and I think the first two parts of the ST hold together better than the first two parts of the PT. For me, the PT's first two parts felt a bit too disjointed by the fact that (a) they took place many years apart, (b) there was an entirely new Anakin, and (c) the lead character of part 1 (Qui-Gon) didn't return for part 2. The ST has none of those problems, and yet, I remember being much more anxious to see Episode 3 than I am to see Episode 9.

I think a large part of it is due to the fact that we knew what events had to happen in Episode 3, so we could look forward to seeing those events. We knew the Jedi had to get wiped out. We knew Anakin and Obi-Wan had to fight. We knew Anakin was going to end up in the suit. We knew Luke and Leia would be born. Etc, etc, etc. So we could have fun anticipating how all those events would play out. We could also speculate about other things, such as whether or not we'd see how Tarkin came into power, and whether we'd see Boba Fett become a bounty hunter, etc. With Episode 9, on the other hand, we have very little to go on, and all we really know is that presumably Rey and Kylo will have some sort of confrontation. But we've already seen that, so, um, yay?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Episode 9 will be a fun movie, just as TFA was, but it's just difficult for me to get particularly excited about it. That may change when we start seeing some trailers and getting some leaks. This is one movie where I think some spoilers may actually help build the excitement.

 

Different people want different things, Man. Or think they do on the spur of the moment as the type into a forum. What can I tell you? They may have many reasons to dislike the sequels, but if you liked TLJ more power to you, I wouldn't worry what other people think.

Yeah but you could say that about literally any other story that has ever existed. You liked TLJ, but what was it? Basically it was Luke saying 'Want to hear about that time I lost faith in the jedi and became a coward?' ('No!' sane audience member) Yeah, well here is that story...once upon a time...vague stuff happened where I lost my faith in the jedi and became a coward !

Well, I don't think that's true for the vast majority of real Star Wars fans, so I wouldn't let it get to you.

 

May be i am generalizing too much, but there is a part, a sometimes very vocal part of the fandom that only likes "frozen" star wars...
I disagree with you on your comparison between Solo and TLJ... like it or not, TLJ gave us things we had not seen coming... Solo is just an illustration of what we already knew... Solo and Rogue One go from point A to point B when we already know point A and B, TLJ goes from point B to C and we don't know C before we see the movie..
I put a little more thought on the "problem" with Star Wars... Haters of TLJ will think it's because of TLJ (and there is some truth to it since the movie was divisive)... lovers of TLJ may think it's because of the toxicity of the TLJ haters (and there is some truth to it, i think a lot more, but i'm partial, since it's sometimes no longer fun at all to speak about star wars with some peoples if they hated TLJ because they become angry, irrational... yes, they are often irrational, i'm sorry if you don't agree on that, and the harrassement that Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, John Boyega or Rian Johnson have endured put a very negative light on Star Wars fandom and Star Wars in general)... but i think there is a third factor... Time itself..
When the first trilogy was released, Star Wars was something new, something peoples had never seen, it changed cinema forever.... at the time of the prequel trilogy, it was like the return of the King (not the lord of the rings one), offering us a story that we had wanted to see for a long time...but since, Epic Blockbuster Saga have become a lot less rare... we had the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, we had Harry Potter, X-Men, Spider-man, the Dark Knight trilogy, the MCU, and lets not speak of all the Young Adult sagas (Twilight, Hunger Games, etc...) and even television has this now with Game of Thrones...
When Disney bought Lucasfilm, there was a peak of interest because everybody had thought that Star Wars was dead... but now we have seen it's alive... a part of the audience has lost interest, not because it's bad, but because we are spoiled children, and Star Wars is now just a saga in the middle of all the others...
I like what Disney is doing with Star Wars, even if i criticize Solo.. (i liked it)... but may be they should slow down after episode IX because Star Wars may have to become rare again, so we can miss it and be happy when it will be back.

 

Comparing the anticipation between ROTS and EPIX is comparing apples to oranges. The years after AOTC and before ROTS were building the supposed resolution to the franchise; we were finally gonna see Anakin's turn, the Emperor rise, the Jedi fall, etc. ROTS was also precluded with TV shows, games, and novels leading up to its release. There was a level of satisfaction that came with ROTS because we at long last got to see just how Anakin fell after seeing him redeemed in ROTJ. Was it well done? That lies in the eye of the beholder, but what's not debatable is that the almost 30 year buildup was finally complete.

EPIX doesn't have that luxury. Anakin's story is complete, there are no loose ends to tie up in regards to "The Chosen One". We as fans always fantasized about post-ROTJ events, but it never had the same intrigue of Anakin's story. Why? Because ROTJ had a resolution that was definite, no dragons left to slay. Anything post-ROTJ was always gonna seem off to a degree, EU included. TFA did its job by introducing new characters and mystery regarding the events after the Empire's fall...but TLJ closed the door on most of the mystery. Now we have Empire v. Rebels 2.0, and we already know the Rebels will win (because there has to be a happy ending). No mystery, no intrigue, no excitement, it's just a retread. Add in the fact that Han and Luke are killed off cannonically while Carrie's dead IRL, the sentiment that was carrying this trilogy is gone as well. There just isn't enough to get me (or many others) excited for the conclusion of the saga.

That being said, I'll still watch it of course, but there'll be less satisfaction and closure this time around.

 

That basically sums it up. I feel a bit sad that a lot of the magic is gone, and I really don't think it had to be this way.

The new movies were under no obligation to satisfy my 'head-canon' idea of how the story should go - I was truly open to new ideas.

It's just that the angle they went for was ill-advised in my opinion.

I will never for the life of me understand why they didn't provide the older characters with a compelling story of their own to pass on the torch gracefully as we introduced the new generation. It could have been so seamless,instead the blundering choices and odd character notes bummed a lot of the old fans out, and the fact that they kept Mark, Harrison and Carrie separate is bordering on a crime against cinematic history.

People might say 'oh you're just upset that you didn't get the film you wanted'

Well yeah, but more to the point, as someone who consumed all the sparse Star Wars material, paid for and read all the Bantam books and followed with my hard-earned cash the EU from the Courtship of Princess Leia during the quiet times when Star Wars was virtually a forgotten franchise in the early to mid 90's right through The Black Fleet Crisis, NJO, LOTF, FOTJ, right to the very end - I was more upset that I didn't get the films I DESERVED!

But, as I've said before, I've made my peace with it now. Let's see what happens.

 

Minor nitpick, he’s not flying the shuttle. He’s at the nav station. Rose walks back from the pilot’s seat to talk to him. Like many complaints about The Last Jedi, this one is not grounded in reality.

As to anticipation, speaking for myself, RotS felt like a tired obligation. I wasn’t paying for a movie ticket just to see the trailer like TPM. After going all out with friends to midnight showing for Ep I and II, I went alone for III. Only the one midnight show, not multiple tickets for that weekend. The prequels had misfired so badly by that point that all I really wanted was a good lightsaber fight.

I’m far more excited for episode IX, because I seem to be in the minority of “hardcore” Star Wars fans who likes not knowing what happens next. I made the observation after Rogue One—and am even more convinced of it after TLJ and Solo—that some fans, many of those who post here, don’t want new stories, the just want to play with their action figures. There are three reasons for this, I think:

1: Obsession with “world building”
Star Wars fans spent so long in the desert picking the bones clean of the OT, seeking out new merchandise to further explain the galaxy of the movies they liked, that they forgot how light a touch the actual movies have when it comes to “lore.” They began to believe that the world building was the point of new movies, not story and characters.

2: Prequelitus
An extension of no. 1. By choosing to look backwards instead of forward after RotJ, Lucas taught a whole generation of fans to celebrate artistic navel-gazing.

3: The Marvelization of Pop Culture
Going all the way back to the early comic book days, Stan Lee preached the storytelling philosophy of running in place. After 10 years of unparalleled success by MCU, people are now inclined to want their franchises loaded with their favorite characters doing all their favorite things. They don’t want a surprising new story with real stakes and real consequences, they want to be serviced. Tony Stark is always getting to do cool Tony Stark things in every new appearance, so why can’t we see Luke doing lots of Luke things?

I’m not sure if a lot of these fans will ever really get past this mindset. Sometimes it feels like “being a fan” has become a weirdly ritualized experience. Like, the ultimate anticipation is in eventually getting that Steelbox and putting it on the shelf next to the others, not “what happens next?”

 

The buildup this time, for me, has been far more successful. I didn’t even bother seeing ROTS in the cinema, and there’s no way I’ll miss Episode IX. For me, that’s due to both the quality of the ST, and the refreshing breathers we’ve gotten with the spinoffs.

@Jim Ryalto

The other reason people might enjoy RO and Solo is that they are great movies with great characters, great acting and great visuals. The PT had a lot of world-building, but for me, didn’t at all work as films. The spinoffs have had great worldbuilding, while also being really solid as films in their own right. This has nothing to do with obsessions with world building, prwquelitis, or Marvelization (as I dislike the MCU). It has to do with good filmmaking. At least for me it does. And I’m a pretty harsh film critic.

 

I feel you and normally you'd be right. Sure we don't know what will happen, but we really haven't seen anything happen yet at all. The other movies were leading you somewhere and you wanted to see it. I'm not sure I know what is going on so its hard to get excited about not knowing how it will end. Some one will fight, some stuff will blow up. Cameos will be had.

I think the real problem people are having is the tonal disconnect in the two episodes. This is what you get when you allow two writers to do their own thing as long as they give a nod to the overall plot outline. This, at least to me, was the downfall of the Star Wars novels. They'd plan out like 8 books by four different authors, who wrote 280 pages of stuff that had nothing to do with anything the other author's 280 pages were about save for a page or two devoted to the overall plot. In the end you would have invested almost 3000 pages of story to separate storylines and only really about 50 to "Jedi vs Ugly People from another Galaxy" or "Jacen and Jaina go Trick or Treating". I think you need to have a strong story from the start, with every scene and the dialogue therein devoted to the plot and building to the conclusion. I mean, this trilogy was supposed to be the conclusion of the whole saga. I thought it was supposed to really mean something cumulative. I just really haven't seen that kind of direction play out on screen though. More like they thought it could just go on and on? Maybe 9 wasn't the original end Disney had in mind but decided they really needed to do just to get out of the hole they dug for themselves?

Now I can tell you I liked TFA. It set up quite a few things that were exciting. I like TLJ too and I am not bashing it by saying that it didn't complement TFA. It fit just like a movie written and directed by someone else would with any other story. I just don't think that approach works for any series all that well. JJ should have made all three. Then RJ could have made one of the anthology films because that is what TLJ felt like. Now I am grateful JJ is back; the plot points he introduced were the things I wanted to see play out in TLJ (as did most people). And to think, they had yet a third person to tell IX originally. We really would have been scratching our heads with that one. Imagine if Lord of the Rings had been made with Peter Jackson doing Fellowship, Quentin Tarantino Two Towers and Michael Bay Return of the King? You'd have a mess on your hands pertaining to a story you know and have set expectations of.

As for Episode 3: all we knew was that Anakin would become Vader, the Jedi would fall, and the twins would be born. We just didn't know how any of that would take place. It was momentous. For me it surpassed the feelings I had at the end of ROTJ. It answered my questions and surpassed my daydreams. I was completed. I saw the last piece fall into place within my favorite story.

I wasn't looking for more Star Wars after that. Then we got Clone Wars and I was super satisfied with that. With that sensation, I looked towards the sequel trilogy and all the spin offs with great interest. But there is just something missing in all this new stuff. It lacks a core component. It looks and sounds like Star Wars. It plays on Star Wars themes and its mythology. But ultimately it is fan fiction without its creator directly involved. He just had that thing that made it what it was. Sure, others can play in the sandbox. Problem is, no one can inject it with the life Lucas could. He just understood what he was making far more than a devoted team of people thinking about what he would do and how he would do it. I wish Disney and Lucas could get back together and collaborate on future films. His handling of the force and the fight between good and evil just felt epic and exhilarating. I'm not sure what the point is of the sequels. Why is the first order so mean? What are they mad at? Everything is loathsome! There shall be order! The republic is camera shy. Havent seen any of it. Its hard to care about 6 or so planets exploding when you dont know who was on it or what they were about. And what is Kylo Ren going on about? He feels like he has to do something with the dark side but really isnt into it all that much. Rey just needs to figure out what to do with her life. Jedi or business major? Marriage or career first? The real problem is the lack of destiny as a driving motive. Folks here just fall into potholes that are supposed to be important.

 

ROTS was a massive, unmissable event of a movie- the culmination of almost 30 years of waiting to see Anakin Skywalker turn into Darth Vader and the climactic fight with his mentor on a volcano-

Episode IX on the other hand... I struggle to see how this movie is going to be in any way, shape or form a satisfying end to the Skywalker Saga- if anything it will be a massive let down given the extremely poor storytelling choices and the fact that Kylo and Rey are such poor leads. They don't hold any weight whatsoever as characters, and that will more than likely drag the movie in the end.

ROTS felt like a satisfying, completist end to the series that George started... Episode IX will feel like the contractually obligated movie that it is, just like the other two.

 

The problem with the unknown -- total open possibility -- is that you can't have any expectation for what will happen. Anything and everything can happen, and that's vague and boring.

Expectations are good -- that's what storytelling is. A happens, which make you expect B and C and maybe G.

Even mysteries must build some level of expectation to work. There's not even any mystery left, apparently, for E9.

Rian gave us the void, and a void is boring.

 

There are a few threads continuing in IX worth anticipating. Although I've admittedly never anticipated a movie as much as I did Episode 3 in '05.


What is a Skywalker like as Supreme Leader? Will he actually make the galaxy better in some ways, and the ending will be the good guys' people amalgamating with some of the bad?
Or will he be a ruthless tyrant, and set up that all the Resistance can really do is wipe the First Order out?

Who is the third group both the Resistance and First Order will need to work together against?

Will Rey be tempted significantly by the dark side? Will she almost turn at a climactic moment? Is she going to be a Jedi Grand Master at the end of the movie, assuming she survives, or will she do something less expected?

Will Kylo be redeemed? Will he live? How did he turn?

What will ghost Luke, or Leia, say in the film? Seeing Leia's final film will likely be epic.

And if there is any backstory given to this - why did Snoke hate them. How did he watch Kylo from the time he was born?

What is the mysterious element apparently driving much of the film?

Oh, and if it's an accurate rumour, what scene/scenes was Lucas involved with.

I'm pretty excited to see a trailer in any case.

 

The marketing and trailers will be super important to get interest hyped. I mean, I'm interested in 9 simply because it's supposedly the end of the Saga (doubt it). But we actually need story threads in the marketing because beyond Resistance vs. First Order, I'm not sure what to anticipate.

 

People were excited about ROTS because it was the link to the OT. The anticipation for TFA was similar to ROTS because it was the link FROM the OT. ROTS and TFA are the analogous films because they're OT-adjacent, so I don't believe that IX and ROTS can really be compared in the same way.

 

Good point.
With EpIX coming in at the tail-end of the Skywalker saga and ending an era, where ROTS was more an interwoven connective tissue.
IX does have going for it that it is after so the possibilities are arguably limitless, but this also means it might not effect the original six film narrative nearly as intimately as ROTS did.


The similarity I see however is regarding the possibility of fleshing out Kylo's turn and any redemptive element.
With Ep 3 and Anakin; most viewers already saw him redeemed in ROTJ so ROTS was more foreshadowing and adding dramatic weight and echoes, and a poignant sense of irony, going 1-6. It is basically a reworking of the narrative of the OT of course.

Ep9 on the other hand we are likely getting Kylo's backstory and his conclusion in one film. Like it is going to mirror both ROTS and ROTJ in a way.
It makes it something we arguably haven't had before and I'm actually expecting a somewhat tragic element to the story, even if we get a bittersweet happy ending.

 

MODified: Discuss topics and not your amateur psychological analyses of other members or discuss getting unbanned. Again.

 

I remember the "the acting is good in this one" hype.

 

I am interested in seeing what they do with Carrie. Don't care what happens to Darth Emo or any of the other characters. If Matt Smith ends up being in it and has an awesome secret villain role I would be excited, but for now I'm assuming he doesn't or isn't. And maybe Keri Russel's bounty hunter will be fun. I don't know. I'm still interested in seeing what happens and will definitely watch it eventually. But without George Lucas Disney Wars is a sad, pale imitation of what it once was, and we all have to learn to lower our expectations drastically. And write lots of funny fan fiction.

Finn learning how to fly while he was in a coma was a great one! And I see no reason why that couldn't happen in a universe when force powers can be downloaded via telepathy. I think Rey should be nice and slide into Finn's head and share her powers with him. Really, she should share them with the other eight people in the resistance, too, so that she doesn't have to do everything herself, and can go make herself a sandwich and take a nap every once in a while.