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Episode III icons... This rather made me mad...

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Sithman, Sep 21, 2003.

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  1. Grilled-Sarlacc

    Grilled-Sarlacc Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    and I do visit Star Wars websites, including this one

    That's good news, Bria. Especially since you are a MANAGER here.

    Officially released Ep3 pictures may be made into icons at this site. Beware.

    (Though no spy pics will be icons. Period.)
     
  2. Bria

    Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 15, 1999
    Cut me some slack, G-S. I've had a very stressful day and not enough sleep last night. :p Besides.... one doesn't have to visit theforce.net to post to the JC (or vice-versa), and that was my point. I do visit TF.N frequently as well as a few other SW websites, but not as much as the JC. ;)
     
  3. Krash

    Krash RSA Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2000
    Everyone wins that way
    Some people win more then others...I think it's unfair to make those who simply wish to avoid having the last Star Wars movie "spoiled" work twice as hard as those who want every little detail.

    I was spoiled more by Celebration 2
    Yes, but that was a matter of days before AOTC comes out...we're talking about a MUCH longer stretch of time. Again, i think TFN needs to be more aware of the TIMING for when they release Episode III icons.

    That way they are protected, and the large population of 3SA can enjoy icons that relate to the movie but reveal no plot points.
    Again, you're punishing those who are 3NS...or at the least forcing them to choose between their wishes and remaining active on the boards. Is it possible (technically speaking) to allow users to choose (themselves) the ability to view Episode III icons? Rather then the hassle of downloading...simply click on something in the icon section titled "do not display Episode III icons"? Something they can turn off as we get closer to Episode III?
     
  4. wstraka5

    wstraka5 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Again, you're punishing those who are 3NS...or at the least forcing them to choose between their wishes and remaining active on the boards

    No it isn't "punishing" those in the 3NSA. The current spoiler rules state that offically release pictures are NOT spoilers. Since the icons that we are talking about are from officially relased photos, then it doesn't violate the current spoiler rules.

    Also, as has been said over and over, if you are one of those people that doesn't want to see any images or anything, then you can always turn the "download images" option off when you visit the JC. See, there are many ways for you to still participated even if you don't want to be spoiled.
     
  5. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Some people win more then others...I think it's unfair to make those who simply wish to avoid having the last Star Wars movie "spoiled" work twice as hard as those who want every little detail.

    As the solution you presented is not technologically feasible, what other options do we have?

    There are three fairly sizeable groups that are unaffected by this decision.

    1) The spoilers crowd. They are still able to have their icons with images from Ep III.

    2) The no-spoilers crowd who follow TFN's policy. They are unspoiled by the images.

    3) Those who do not care one way or the other about spoilers (myself included).

    That leaves only one group of people affected by the decision: the hardcore no spoilers people. They only have to take a few steps one time in order to prevent themselves from seeing any "spoiler" icons. That's hardly working "twice as hard".

    Otherwise, you also get us into a series of dilemas. First, who's judgement do we follow in deciding what is a spoiler or not? Or do we disallow anything that might possibly be a spoiler? That would hardly be fair to the spoilers crowd.

    Second, What else would then have to be changed in the spoiler policy? Taken to its logical extreme, all spoilers would be forbidden from the boards. That would include prohibiting discussion of legitimate marketing materials. (For example, the current Anakin picture is being used in several news articles about Episode III.)

    The best course is to hold to the middle-of-the-road official policy that we have. We have no obligation to protect hardcore spoiler free people from information that the sites policy does not deem a spoiler. However, we are willing to help them take action on their own to protect themselves.

    Honestly, [link=http://mozilla.org]Mozilla[/link] in this case is the best answer. (Not to mention it is 100% free, both in cost and in the sense of liberty.)

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  6. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Except it's a crap browser in some senses and has issues with some security implementations of websites (specificially related to certificates).

    Not to mention -- is difficult to download if you're only on dial-up.

    Not to mention -- difficult to use if you're using AOL and don't know how to not use the AOL browser.

    The question KK is NOT who if "affected" -- the question is who is "hurt" by it. No one is hurt by NOT having the icons. People ARE hurt by having the icons.
     
  7. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    The question KK is NOT who if "affected" -- the question is who is "hurt" by it. No one is hurt by NOT having the icons. People ARE hurt by having the icons.

    Why don't we just hang out a sign that says "Spoilers not welcome here" while we're at it.

    It is not the administration's job to enforce every user's personal definition of spoiler. Instead, the administration has set a policy (based off of LFL's policy, I might add) and enforces that.

    It is the same as the endless canon debates over the EU. The Lit forum has a policy based on what LFL has said. Individual users are free to disregard any part of the canon policy that they wish, but when it comes to board policy, the only one enforced is the one based on LFL's statements.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  8. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    It is not the administration's job to enforce every user's personal definition of spoiler. Instead, the administration has set a policy (based off of LFL's policy, I might add) and enforces that.

    True -- but why go out of their way to piss off people. The 3NS Forum is a choice, the 3SA Forum is a choice and icons are choices. HOWEVER, one cannot choose to go to a place without icons -- they're everywhere.

    It is the same as the endless canon debates over the EU. The Lit forum has a policy based on what LFL has said. Individual users are free to disregard any part of the canon policy that they wish, but when it comes to board policy, the only one enforced is the one based on LFL's statements.

    Patently false -- the Board Policy actually goes 100% counter to the LFL policy on canon. So we're reversing ourselves on what LFL says in one place and enforcing it in another -- double-standard? You betcha!
     
  9. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Patently false -- the Board Policy actually goes 100% counter to the LFL policy on canon. So we're reversing ourselves on what LFL says in one place and enforcing it in another -- double-standard? You betcha!

    Last I checked, Lit followed the policy from LFL that if it doesn't have an infinities symbol on it, it was canon. Basically, if LFL released it, unless they say otherwise, it is canon.

    In the same way, if LFL releases information about Ep III, unless they say otherwise, it is not a spoiler.

    Those two are completely consistent.

    Kimball Kinnison

    EDIT:

    HOWEVER, one cannot choose to go to a place without icons -- they're everywhere.

    There are other options.

    First, as I said, Mozilla is available. The latest version is the most standards compliant web browser out there (with the possible exception of Opera). The security issues that you mention (as near as I can tell) were corrected with version 1.4 and are no longer an issue. Additionally, many of the "problems" come from websites that use non-standard htmls or javascript, not Mozilla itself. I believe Opera has a similar option to block images from certain servers.

    Second, if users are using AOL and don't know how to use an external browser, we can help them with that.

    Finally, for those who are on dialup connections, I'd be willing to send them a CD with it, if need be. I'd even be willing to do it completely at my own expense. Just have them PM me and I'll see what I can do.

    KK
     
  10. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Right, KK... Lit follows LFL to the letter of the law.

    However, the REST OF THE BOARDS, specifically the Movie Forums, do not acknowledge the EU as canon -- thereby going in direct-counter to LFL's own policy.

    So why is it acceptible to "selectively enforce" official LFL rules in some Forums with some rules, and not with other rules?
     
  11. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Notice, I never said anything about the board's canon policy, only Lit's policy (assuming that you would be familiar with it ;)).

    If a group of users were to come into Lit and start complaining that you needed a stricter canon policy, how would you react? How about if a large group within Lit wanted to deny the comics or games as canon? Would that make you change your mind even if they claimed to be hurt by talk of Dark Empire?

    That is almost a direct parallel to this situation. Those who wish a more strict policy must take their own steps to enforce it on themselves. They should not demand that the administration do it for them.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  12. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    No, it's not a direct parallel to the situation. My example is way closer.

    LFL has an official policy: anything not slapped with an Infinities label is canon.

    TF.n chooses to not accept that policy globally, and instead "picks and chooses."

    LFL has an official policy: anything officially released is not a spoiler.

    TF.n chooses to accept that policy as a blanket statement and not apply it piecemeal.

    THAT is a double-standard.
     
  13. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    dp4m,

    There is a clear difference. With one of them, it will be almost impossible to ignore the material coming out. Pictures will be shown in newspapers, magazines, and many websites. Action figures will be sold in toy stores. Trailers will run with movies and on TV.

    On the other hand, with the EU, it is much easier to ignore. I have actually met many people who didn't even know that the books existed.

    The boards have to set some policy relating to spoilers, or it will drive many people away. However, if that policy is too loose, many people will not want to come here for fear of being spoiled. If it is too tight, many people won't want to come here because they would feel that they are being stifled.

    In the end, the only balance that can be reached is to go by what LFL says. If they say it, it is no longer a spoiler. It becomes marketing. It will be released to the general public through media channels. You cannot stop the dissemination of that information. To try to do so is folly.

    That is the board's policy, and that is where Sapient has said that ir will remain. All the discussion that we have on it from here will do nothing to change that. We are simply going around in circles.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  14. Crispy_Fried_Dentic

    Crispy_Fried_Dentic Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 27, 2003
    If it is too tight, many people won't want to come here because they would feel that they are being stifled.

    But where are they being stifled?? There's a whole 3SA board out there, probably the busiest in this whole site! Then there's the whole rest of the boards where people can have 'moderate' or 'legal' (according to the guidelines) spoiler discussion. The only place where spoilers are not allowed is 3NSA.

    Why is it in 3NSA that images are restricted to their respective "official image" threads while icons can be used anywhere including 3NSA? Makes no sense. You're already bending your own rules. Why don't you just close the image threads then? Let people post the 'legal/non-spoiler' images anywhere, since they are so harmless and within the spoiler guidelines of this entire site?

    The decisions of the administration are not making sense.

    Maybe this is not a spoiler discussion after all, but simply a problem of EPIII images in their entirety, whether they contain spoilers or not.
     
  15. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Why is it in 3NSA that images are restricted to their respective "official image" threads while icons can be used anywhere including 3NSA? Makes no sense. You're already bending your own rules. Why don't you just close the image threads then? Let people post the 'legal/non-spoiler' images anywhere, since they are so harmless and within the spoiler guidelines of this entire site?

    This has been explained several times already, but here goes.

    The TFN spoiler policy forms the baseline for the entire site. However, in the 3NS forum, they use a tighter policy to accomidate those who are hardcore no spoilers people. However, the icons fall under the site policy, not the 3NS one.

    As I have said before, I have no problem with 3NS making a rule that people posting in that forum may not use icons form Ep III. That is fine. The point at which I have a problem is when people step out of 3NS and expect the 3NS rules to follow them everywhere on the boards. That is unreasonable to expect.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  16. FateNaberrie

    FateNaberrie Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2000
    Yes, but that was a matter of days before AOTC comes out...we're talking about a MUCH longer stretch of time. Again, i think TFN needs to be more aware of the TIMING for when they release Episode III icons.


    WHAT?! You are seriously saying that there's a difference between seeing this 50x50 picture now and seeing it the day before EpisodeIII opens(assuming you don't see it in some other form before then)? Like it will actually "tell" you less depending on the day and time that it is revealed to you?!
     
  17. Bria

    Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 15, 1999
    Yes, but that was a matter of days before AOTC comes out...we're talking about a MUCH longer stretch of time. Again, i think TFN needs to be more aware of the TIMING for when they release Episode III icons.

    Very true. It was only a few weeks prior to AOTC. But I stilll chose to be there. I went knowing that I might overhear something another fan who was into spoilers said (which wasn't exactly the case, as it was the author of the novelization) and could become spoiled. It was only one thing that I learned there, but it happened, as I had known it could. It's the same here. People chose to come. A person could post any picture to any of the forums and until it got removed, anyone seeing it would potentially be spoiled. The Ep.3 icons we have aren't like that. A few non-descript face shots of Ep.3 characters aren't really a big deal. They are either of Anakin or Padme (whom will obviously be in Ep.3) or characters I've never heard of and know nothing about. Seeing these icons doesn't really tell anyone anything and it's already been stated that spoiler type icons (showing major plot points) won't be uploaded.

    For as much as very hard core non-spoiler people who don't want to see any pictures, there as many spoiler people who want simple non-descript icons. There is no way to limit a forum from seeing icons, so the solution really only can be for the non-spoiler fans to turn them off, as there is no option to turn on spoiler icons for those who want them.
     
  18. Sam_Skywalker

    Sam_Skywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2003
    I don't reallly give a darn if I know everything thats gonna happen in Ep3. I just wanna see it.

    (this posted just to let everyone know my stance ;) )
     
  19. Krash

    Krash RSA Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2000
    You are seriously saying that there's a difference between seeing this 50x50 picture now and seeing it the day before EpisodeIII opens
    There will be a growing level of antici..........pation ( ;) ) for when Episode III is in theaters. And many people have made it clear that avoiding all information will be difficult (at best). I'm not suggesting that TFN outlaw ANY/ALL icons (until the release) of Episode III...but this may be TOO SOON to have character images.

    These has been a growing reputation that the mods and admins of TFN are (for lack of a better word) "heartless" to the concerns of the spoiler free. I have seen BOTH sides of this argument...and have been frustrated myself with some people's "my way, or off the information superhighway" approach towards differences in opinion. All I'm suggesting is that TFN and Jedi Council Forums should prove that misconception wrong. Offer non-spoiler fans (regardless of the level they wish to remain unspoiled) an equal amount of consideration when posting these icons/images. Other then simply telling them THEY have to download some icon blocker (a program that I've read has a questionable security record)...or THEY have to choose to leave. What I'm trying to promote is that TFN needs to address the concerns of the spoiler free...as much as they do the spoiled. This is the LAST SW movie being made...this is not the time to divide fans like a bunch of Trekers/Trekies!

    I stilll chose to be there. I went knowing that I might overhear something another fan who was into spoilers said...and could become spoiled.
    As a representative of Fanforce, I've CHOOSEN to take more then "one for the team" in terms of (what I consider) spoilers to ensure the wishes of my fellow members of The Jedi Knights of Cleveland have a chance of their spoiler-ness being met. We've already lost ONE of our founding members (until Episode III) because those who want spoilers disregard the opinions of non-spoiled. I ask TFN to not make this same mistake on all the boards.

    It is easier to spoil...then remain un-spoiled, and TFN needs to address these kinds of issues from that standpoint.
     
  20. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Sithman, are you telling me that you were able to avoid that very wide teaser poster of Anakin and Padme standing back to back? My God, there was no way you could have missed it at my theater. It was draped right over the consseision area. Were you actually able to avoid the TPM teaser which had Jake Loyd walking along the DV shadow?

    Sorry, but you are being very unrreasonable here.
     
  21. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Exactly. And what icon is this debate about? All Episode III icons are either officially released pics or Fan Art. No plot whatsoever is revealed. And that Anakin has long hair in Episode III? My, my, that's SOME spoiler... [face_plain]
     
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