A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

She doesn't though. The film intentionally subverts that trope.

EDIT: While we're at it, Finn wasn't written with a defined ethnicity as far as I'm aware. Someone may know more. That's an audience projection, and frankly one I haven't heard before. It smacks of looking for problems where there may well not be any. The same goes for the Leia slap: it's a byproduct of Johnson being heavily influenced by films of a bygone era rather than some sinister overtone. For the first time since the original it's really Star Wars re-purposing older cinema rather than itself. That includes, I feel, screwball and elements of that genre that maybe are "troubling" the more woke you are. This isn't exclusive to Star Ware and I know that's not an excuse - I'm interested to see what the first female written/directed SW film looks and sounds like, and quite honestly I hope it's in the near future.

 

My sole issue with Holdo was that she insists on everyone else following protocol while she wears an evening dress on the bridge in clear defiance of uniform regulations. How am I supposed to respect my commanding officer when she flaunts the same regulations she insists we follow?

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An evening dress isn't going to threaten their survival if it leaks to the First Order. Poe threatens their survival when he leaks their plan.

And... what are uniform regulations in the Resistance? Are there any? People wear them, sure, but is it regulated?

 

I mean, Mon Mothma's scene in ROTJ has her wearing what is essentially a giant floaty white kaftan so i'm leaning no on this. Bit different if you're out in the field, but being on the bridge a dress wouldn't cause a problem.

 

Except that Mon Mothma wasn't an actual military officer, whereas Admiral Holdo is. The President/King/Queen doesn't have to wear a military uniform if they're on a military ship.

With that being said re: Holdo's attire, given that this is the Resistance we're talking about and not the Imperial/First Order military, I'm willing to give her some slack on her attire. My problem with her isn't her attire, but her initial attitude towards Poe. Yes, he was reckless, but she talked down to him like he was a little boy. She could have been firm without being condescending.

 

I think nerds especially tend to easily get caught up in the neoliberal lie that surface-level representation is all that is needed for real diversity, and ignore both the actual ideological message of the product as well as the ideology of the company itself.

Like how last year at this time, Forces of Destiny was being praised for how 'feminist' it was, despite its specific purpose being to market toys to girls, and it being championed by the same (female) Lucasfilm president who only a few months before stated that no woman was skilled enough to direct a Star Wars movie. Or how Black Panther is being praised for being such a 'radical' film, when its main character is an absolutist monarch who works with the CIA to launch a coup in an African country with the goal of snuffing out an actual Pan-Africanist liberation movement.

I think it ultimately stems from a combination of nerds already being obsessed with consumerism and therefore focusing solely on visual representation, but also having an unhealthy fixation on STEM fields over (and sometimes actively deriding) any kind of social or humanities study, as no less than Neil deGrasse Tyson so often unwittingly demonstrates.

 

Personally I had no real problem with her "stern and by-the-book"* in scolding of Poe. My problem is that the movie show us that she have not been able to get the people under her to believe in her or that she has a plan.

* even if I'm not certain I would call it by the book.

 

I would understand this view if Poe had caused a few bombers to get irreparably damaged, but with little if any casualties. Instead, he gets the entire bomber fleet and half of the star fighter compliment destroyed in a reckless attack that had a very slim chance of succeeding. Being talked down to should have been the least of his worries.


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Well.... a tiny number of the people under her. We only see a handful of people join Poe's mutiny, all people with whom the film leads us to believe he has a close, pre-existing relationship. As soon as Holdo is able to get out from having a gun held to her, her people win almost immediately. The overwhelming majority of the crew seemed to have no problem going ahead with their orders, and they all clearly knew more than Poe did (Since, for instance, they were the ones fuelling up the transports, preparing to board them etc, all before Poe knew anything about it.) Plus, of course, the troops who go to escort Poe off the bridge as soon as he starts screaming and throwing chairs around, without even needing to be told to do so.

In fact there is absolutely nothing in the movie to tell us that most of the Resistance officers DON'T know the plan or that they oppose Holdo at all. We only see it from Poe's perspective. Given the way things play out, it seems a much safer assumption that it was only Poe and his circle who were being excluded, thanks to Holdo's (eminently reasonable) fear that they were untrustworthy loose cannons, rather than the reverse. But the movie can't tell us that outright because it wants us to go along with Poe's PoV and realise he was wrong when he does.

 

*holdo, poe's superior, has a plan and doesn't share it with him*

FANS: This is ridiculous!

*poe, recently demoted for insubordination and having bad plans, has a plan and doesn't share it with holdo*

FANS: well, obviously

 

Slow your roll there. Your problem with *Holdo* is her attire? What about *General* Leia?

I dont their either of their attire makes sense in a military situation, unless their hope was jumping away from D'Qar to a world where they needed to address NR remnants formally as they attempt to rally support. Holdo being a close friend was part of Leia's diplomatic entourage.

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Be fair now, she's trying to save the galaxy, it's not just "I feel bad for Kylo and I must save him." There's the whole turning against Snoke, saving the Resistance thing that she believes is going to happen. I mean, it DOESN'T, cuz Kylo's gotta Kylo but I don't think it's meant as solely Rey feels bad for Kylo and has to save him. If it was just that, she would have joined him when he asked but she's still working at a larger good. She sees a vision in the Force of Kylo turning so she has to make it happen. And he did turn against Snoke. Just not in the way that Rey had hoped.

But she learned her lesson and closes the door at him at the end. Like Yoda said "The greatest teacher, failure is."

Heard this pointed out on Johnson's commentary track but when Poe starts to have his freak out, check out the bridge officer (she's up at the deck when Poe starts his speechying) who slowly steps away from him knowing it's coming, it's actually kind of hilarious.

 

So basically Rey, who chews out Luke for acting hastily on Force visions, completely does not learn the lesson and decides to act hastily on a Force vision.

 

Luke's "this is not going to go the way you think" response has a lot of layers to it but one of which, he's totally speaking from experience that rushing off to save your friends because of a Force vision doesn't exactly have the best result. (Personally, I like to view it as his response is directly a callback to him referencing his less than stellar result at Bespin)

In fact, is there a Force vision of the future anywhere in Star Wars that turns out okay? Everybody basically ends up in a pickle when they try to follow it, or misinterpret it.

 

Except TLJ tries to have it both ways, by having said dreadnaught lock on its big, honking guns onto the Raddus and prepare to fire, just as the last bomber blows it to hell.

So, if Poe hadn't done the attack, the fleet would have been blasted.

But let's not bother with this particular dance, as everyone knows their steps and it just ain't that interesting.

 

Actually ESB probably worked out that Luke ignored Yoda and tried to stop the vision. If Luke stayed and trained, R2 would not have reactivated the hyperdrive. Vader would capture Leia, Chewie, Lando and Threepio trying to escape, execute Lando slowly and horribly (or even give him a painful permanent fate worse than death while keeping him alive) in front of Cloud City civilians to suppress rebellion, re-enslave Chewie and neuter him like the wild animal he is, reprogram Threepio into an Imperial torture droid (Vader wrote the original programming to begin with), and torture Leia repeatedly until she either turned to the Dark Side or became vegetative from too much torture.

If Luke complains that he did what Yoda told him to do, Yoda would just write this off the way he wrote off the Malachor stuff.

I've learned from personal experience that sometimes when you do what your mentor tells you to do, literally exactly what you fear happens (with you foreseeing the stuff you fear being the reason you even considered defying your mentor in the first place). And when that happens, the mentor shrugs and says "Too bad," and you are left to deal with the (possibly permanent) mess. And no amount of "I did the right thing" or "I did what you told me to do" can fix it.

 

From a certain point of view, they were escaping quite well on their own without Luke's help. All he did was show up and take a few potshots at Boba Fett. then they had to double back and grab him from hanging from his death when Lando's escape plan had already worked out rather excellently (which causes the TIE fighters to catch up with them, they were free and clear without having to go back and get the hanging farmboy). Hyperdrive is a bit of a glitch there, I'll grant you but Chewie probably could have figured it out eventually.

 

While Legends, Luke comments on this in The Last Command, when he has a vision of the Imperial commando attack on Leia, Han and the twins, and explains his experience as one of the reasons he won't rush back (the other being the Imperial ship above Honoghr at the time).

 

We have no indication from the movie Chewie would have figured it out in time. Even R2 wouldn't have known unless the Cloud City computer told him.

 

If you're saying that Artoo is the one who always saves the day, I heartily agree with you there. But I find it hard to watch ESB and say "Gee, Luke sure made the right call going off to Bespin!"

the most recent Darth Vader comic has the Jedi commenting that he's seen a vision of the freedom of Mon Cala happening. He's totally right, he's just off by 2 decades. Whole lotta right place/wrong time seems to happen as well in visions, if not just outright wrong.

 

Sometimes there is no right answer. Sometimes there's just the least awful of 2 bad options...

Interestingly, what Luke did is exactly the same as what Yoda did in AOTC rescuing Anakin, Padme and Obi-wan on Geonosis. Even though it was obviously a trap for an evil purpose.

 

Very true, which also had a knock on effect of begun-ing the Clone Wars as well. To bring it back to Last Jedi, Luke does have a point with the "the legacy of the Jedi is failure" But he's Team Jedi again by the end so he believes there's still a need for them. But whatever comes next, they have to do things differently. I don't think the point of Rey taking the scared texts is that she'll just directly copy what the Jedi order did which tends to end in Darth Vaders. They've already made 2 of them! Something's gotta change.

 

Oh, I have an idea. The heroes love democracy so much!

Chancellor of the galaxy: Citizens of the galaxy--one of our Jedi has had a Force vision!

People: Ohhh....

Chancellor: You will now cast your live holonet vote on what action should be taken!

Query: Rey foresees Broomboy will turn to the dark side. Should we:

Let him go: 2 votes
Allow him to continue Jedi studies: 0 votes
Imprison him for life: 983,481,076,999,123,854,888 votes

Chancellor: Imprisonment it is then.

Broomboy: But I haven't done anything yet!

Rey: Hey it's not my choice, it's the people who decided. Yay for democracy!