A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Well ep 9 is gonna use old concepts from 7 JJ still has time to do weird things with Luke and rocks!

 

I doubt that's what Abrams intended, considering he has Han explain what happened and why Luke left.

 

A lot has been said about the Rey/Kylo relationship. But I'll say this. Rey never wavers in her dedication to the Resistance and the cause of freedom. She doesn't even consider accepting Kylo's offer. As soon as the Praetorian's are defeated, her first thought is for saving the Resistance Fleet. Not kissing Kylo, or even embracing him in victory. She wants his help in defeating the First Order. It makes Luke's claim of her falling to the Dark Side "for a pair of pretty eyes" fall on it's face.

I'm still a fan of Rey after this film. My only real criticism of her is that she didn't take Kylo's weapon with her when she woke up in the throne room.

 

As divided as I am over TLJ/Rian Johnson's choices I still think Rey and Kylo are fantastic characters worthy of the long list of great Star Wars characters.

 

Yup. And equally I don't think Kylo wavers from the dark side for a second. He's evaluating his choices sure, but he's in no way considering joining Rey in that moment, and I don't think at any point in the film. Each of them is pretty firmly rooted on their respective side, and is trying to get the other to come join them, knowing they themselves aren't going to budge.

I forget the post, but someone pointed out how Rey and Finn have chemistry, whereas Rey and Kylo have conflict throughout; they're always brittle.

EDIT: Here we go: Chemistry vs. Friction. It's coached in FinnRey shipping stuff, but I like the central idea that Rey and Kylo just aren't compatible in any meaningful way based on how their relationship/connection is presented.

 

I think Rey and Kylo are drawn to each other by their power and their "relationship" thus far, but while Rey wants to bring Kylo back from the dark side I don't think Kylo really knows what he wants except to have her with him - not even in a romantic sense, necessarily. I do think if we take Snoke seriously, Kylo is in a tough place, here, and is deeply conflicted. I don't think he makes the decision to take the throne until after the fight with the guards. I don't think he's planning to turn his back on Snoke and join Rey, either, though. I just don't think he has a plan.

 

Both clearly think the other is interesting, and I think the idea that there was no chemistry whatsoever is wrong, but both at least atm have firmly opposed moral axioms.

 

I quite like that idea of mutual conversion. The difficulty I have is making it work with the insane timetable, with a gap between TFA and TLJ, I could perhaps buy the idea that Rey decides converting Kylo would blow a big hole in the FO, with him slowly overcoming the shock of finding someone who can match him to start thinking the same. But 2-3 days on? Agh.

 

I think VIII deliberately positions Rey and Ren as doing things cause those are the 'rules' of Star Wars. Rey tries to redeem Ren cause that's what Jedi do, Ren tries to turn Rey because that's what Sith do. By film's end, they've both come into their own because they've both realized that just trying to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader is holding them back.

 

Lucky there's that vision for them to interpret, then.

 

Kylo wants Rey to join him as early as TFA. I think there could be some context in his "stronger than she knows" lines, but he also specifically offers his services to her as a teacher.

Regarding Rey, I think we've got a few things in play that, to me, makes it fairly believable. There's first the shock of Skywalker not being who she thought he would be, which I think opens her mind to accept that maybe people aren't what you first assume them to be. Then you have their forced Force conversations which allows her to see him more as a person than just a faceless monster (one who seemingly supports her more than Luke at that point). Then you have the vision where she sees him returning to the light which also makes her, as you said, realize the benefit to the war if Kylo turns. Finally, you have Luke turning down Rey for the final time which really only leaves her one option, in her mind, to get a powerful Jedi on the side of the Resistance.

 

Except I just can't get past the whole 'assault, kidnap, strap into a torture chamber' that Kylo pulls in TFA.

What we see in TFA is that Rey isn't forgiving of wrong doing, she's quick to deck Finn because she thinks he's a thief, so why in TLJ does Kylo get this, whatever it is?

Then there's the 'kills his dad in front of her' aspect. And both of these are so very, very recent - it's a very short amount of time for a view to change so radically.

 

Well, if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for you, right. I will say I think your comparison to Finn hurts your argument, though. Yeah, she decks him because she thinks he's a thief, but then they get to know each other and in a very short span of time become quite close. Obviously, a falsely accused thief and an unrepentant father killer (patricider?) aren't the same at all, but still.

I guess for me I can buy forgiving someone for those things, especially when you've essentially been locked into a metaphysical room with the person and forced to talk things out. If you can't, that's cool.

 

Oh, I'd see quite a bit of difference between Finn and Kylo! In the case of Finn, it really is a case of mistaken identity - he didn't do it.

In contrast, Kylo doubles down on that - he's going to bragging to the galaxy he killed Han Solo and Luke Skywalker.

Hadn't ever considered it in this way, it's a neat way of looking of it.

 

But can it be said that they really talked thins out? Rey never points out all the evil she saw him do and he never talks about it either

 

You might be better directing that Q elsewhere G, it isn't really my concept - I like it, but it's not my work.

 

I don't believe we see every second of their conversations although I also don't necessarily think they went down a point by point list of everything Kylo had done. I think it's more just they were forced to talk and in those conversations she came to see him as a person.

I think a lot of times we demonize those we don't really understand and define them only by their worst traits. If we really know someone though I think we find we can forgive a lot. In a world where feelings can literally corrupt or save your soul, I can believe Rey could forgive Kylo's actions if she really felt he was a good person corrupted by the dark side.

 

I should mention the last few posts are why I still keep an eye on the thread despite not being a fan of the movie.

I'm looking for that different take, different way of looking at it that might be of help to me too.

 

Necessity. I think Finn is a bad analogue because she and Finn are both good friends by the end of TFA, regardless of how she treats him when she's just met him and has no context whatsoever, but in TLJ she knows how this story is "supposed" to go and, arrogantly, thinks she's ready and able to bring about Kylo's redemption. She senses the same conflict Snoke berates him for.

 

Exactly. Rey decides to move past the TFA behaviour because she sees the vision and is panicking because Luke isn't budging. So she things she's going to do the ROTJ narrative, and damn the context.

 

More than just her vision - she's been forced to spend time with him and get to know him a little in non-slavering-villain contexts, and we know that his behavior in those moments isn't *merely an act,* because Snoke has been chastising him for his "weakness." So it's not just the vision and hardheadedness - it's that she really senses that she might be able to reach him, that he feels strongly about her, that he's hurt and needs help, that he feels lost. And to her credit I think she almost succeeds.

 

After having rewatched Episode I-VI I can't help but feel like somethings off with the ST and hurts to say especially since I love Star Wars so but it just doesn't feel like Star Wars IMO ofc anyone here is free to have their own opinion and if anyone here feels that it does feel like a geniune continuation of the Star Wars saga then that's good for you.

I just feel like they have done a disservice to the characters I grew up with, they've either played it way to safe and made their character arcs take several steps back (smuggler Han, Rebel leader Leia, yet again Luke is the last jedi) or made them do actions I feel like they would have never done. And poor Chewie, all he was was basically comic relief with the porgs or Rey's designated driver in TLJ, Threepio is basically a cameo at this point and R2 barely has any screentime.
And yes I know that this isn't their story anymore but come on you can still do a new generation story while still respecting the old characters. Ofc the new gen will take center stage but it doesn't have to be at the expense of the old heroes.


and most of all IMO the magic and wonder that I feel while watching the GL saga (and the Spin offs) just isn't there in the ST, it just feel so corporate and soul less and unimaginitive. I do not consider the ST to be canon but I'll still watch episode IX in theaters because I'm still curious ofcourse of how it will end and also to show my support. I don't want another BO bomb because that would bury Star Wars (and create several more topics for smug/annoying Alt-right youtubers to make videos about ) and I want Star Wars to last for many years because I do love the cartoon stuff and The Mandalorian looks promising
(I also hate loose ends it triggers my OCD so I need to see a Crimson Dawn wrap up )

 

I wouldnt limit this to "talking things out," because their connection goes beyond simply appearing to be in each other's physical presence. They are connecting on a spiritual level. So what Rey perceives is true... but she's presumably not being allowed to see the fuller picture either by Kylo showing only that face that has the potential for redemption... or by Snoke.

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Or, what she sees is true, and Kylo really is super conflcted.

 

I really appreciate the movie threads in the Literature forum for this. I think these threads have (for the most part) avoided a lot of the extremism that pops up in the main film forums up above.