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A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Karl0413, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Comparing TLJ Luke - Ben to Legends Luke - Jacen is interesting and much food for fanfights. But more interesting I think is, what would have happened had Legends solution been used in TLJ, and TLJs solution used in Legends?

    Imagine Rey killing Kylo at the end of TLJ after he killed Snoke and they briefly fought as one. Ben/Kylo dead, Leia feels it on Crait and Luke feels it on Ach-To. What then?
    -would Rey take the First Order throne and be approached by Palpatine, having fallen herself due to killing someone and having been abused as a weapon by Luke?
    -Would Rey return to the Resistance as if nothing happened? Would the Resistance and Leia fear her for going along with such a decision?
    -Would Luke still refuse to train her or return?

    And the other scenario:

    In LOTF, Jaina Solo is about to head to Jacen to face him, as Luke reconsiders and appears out of the blue himself standing between Jacen and his goal. Luke duels Jacen and Jaina fears for Luke staying in the light despite being glad he took the burden off of her. And with the major battle won due to Jacen being stalled by duelling Luke, Jacen would stab Luke with his lightsaber only to discover he is fake, a Doppelganger projection from afar (as in TLJ). Jaina leaves as Jacen finally has lost everyone, unredeemed. But he is alive and out there still. What would happen next?
    -Jacen dethroned and without allies as Abeloth's ascend is imminent
    -The Jedi and Skysolos being wary of his return and blaming Abeloth shenangians on him as he too notices them and tries to deflect the wrong accusations as well as find the true source
    -Jacen instead of Krayt having to join with the Jedi to defeast Abeloth in the end?


    Interesting scenarios. Thougths?
     
    Chrissonofpear2 likes this.
  2. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    It's always possible, but it is always hard.

    And as long as someone is living, there will always be conflict within a person.

    The book even shows Caedus as finally finding a line he refuses to cross, he decides sacrificing Allana (and Tenel Ka) are NOT worth it.

    You can, with time, give a person opportunities to erode their fanaticism. A fanatic isn't a different species, an "other."

    Their "attempts" to redeem Jacen in LOTF are as bad as Obi-wan's supposed "attempt" to redeem Anakin on Mustafar. If they had behaved instead like how Han, Leia, and Luke did in the ST, perhaps Jacen would have had more wavering and a more visible conflict.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  3. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I like this reasoning because it's the one thing I find always frustrating when we wanna compare canon and legends.

    Canon and Legends have very different contexts for how the same ideas went down.

    The universe of Star Wars is different so the way these ideas happened are different and thus the way to handle them are different
     
    ColeFardreamer likes this.
  4. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Unlikely.

    Leis attempts to reason with Jacen during the Centerpoint Ambush. He is completely deaf to her pleas. Luke tries to reach Jacen above Fondor. He spares his life, holding back when he could have killed him easily. Jacen still refuses to turn away.

    Obi-Wan and Padme both tried to reach Vader. He rebuffed both of their efforts with violence. It’s only when Luke shows Vader mercy and is subsequently attacked by Palpatine that Vader realizes just how wrong he was. His son is better than him. His son loves him enough to spare his life.

    That’s why he turns on Palpatine.

    The only chance for a similar fate to happen to Jacen was when he was on his last legs in his second fight with Jaina. At that point, Jaina couldn’t show him a sliver of mercy because to do so would have meant her own death. Caedus had no conflict at the end when it came to Jaina. He tried to kill her multiple times.

    Leia on the other hand, might have had a chance to reach her son. She would have been the only one who stood a chance of reaching Jacen, as she did with Ben.

    But Legends Leia was too attached to Han, who hated Caedus at the end. Legends Leia was also much more ruthless than her Canon counterpart. She was willing to see her last surviving son die if it meant putting an end to his madness.

    That isn’t to say that she doesn’t regret it later. She’s filled with sorrow and remorse. But she put the good of the Galaxy ahead of her personal desires. Which is what Legends Leia had been doing for decades.
     
  5. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    I think Canon Leia would have seen the Resistance through to Kylo's death if need be.

    She wasn't personally going to find him and call him.back from the edge for 6 years prior to TFA. She believed he had that spark of light within, but she was ready and willing to fight him to the end.

    I dont think Legends and Canon Leia are as far apart as Canon and Legends Luke. Same with Han. Canon Han taking off after Ben's fall isn't all that far removed from Legends Han abandoning his wife and kids to live the smuggler's life with Droma after Chewie died.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  6. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Leia set the Resistane not up to fight anybody but to give people the means to defend themselves and to keep alive and save what she loved, the ideals and core of the New Republic. The more the Resistance became a Rebellion to fight Kylo, the less she actively took part in it as evident in TROS.

    Also talking redemption, Luke in ROTJ, Mara in MotS, even Cay Quel Droma in the distant past, they all were willing to die to redeem their opponent. Well Cay didn't but Luke, Mara and others deactivated their weapons offering the enemy their life and proofed that the enemy could not kill them, would not go through with it. Yet neither Jaina, nor others were willing to go so far as to die for Jacen Solo to return to the Light. That is why they could never redeem him and he had to return himself to the light in a different way. If people arn't banking on their trust that redemption is possible and the good still alive within the opponent as Luke did in ROTJ, they give in to their doubts and loose.

    TFA's scene with Han and Ben is special in that Ben could have returned there with his dad but didn't. Han did everything right. And one feels and notices clearly that there is more to Ben's role than a simple "I did bad and need redemption". That part of him got redeemed by Han ever since as Snoke noticed in TLJ. The other part of Ben that did not get redeemed yet was the one that felt it was his destiny to stay, that as a Chosen One, like Luke once considered him to be, he had to walk both paths and had unfinished business before he could return. Killing Snoke should have been that unfinished business he did not know yet what it was back then (Like Vader's unfinished business was right in front of him and quickly done aka throw the Emperor down). But even after that, Ben faced a choice: Leave to fight the massive FO under a new leadership as he just cut off one head to be replaced by others. Or stay and take over himself where he has a chance to guide it as a Chosen One Ruler. The fight over the Skywalker saber though complicated this as the saber choosing him would ensure him of his Chosen One role. But it chose neither him nor Rey but both and hence split. Not yet understanding how or why, they set out to rejoin their respective sides only to resolve their Dyad much later during TROS.

    The same situation in Legends with Jaina and Jacen was different and yet similiar. Jacen too believed in his destiny and while redeeming in part to save what he loved, he never gave up believing that his destiny was right, just admitting the methods were maybe wrong. In that regard, would he have killed Jaina? I doubt he could have gone through with it had she stopped fighting to offer her life. Or he would have regretted it Ulic style after he killed his brother Cay. Maybe like Ben Solo with Han he'd have needed to kill her to longterm heal and redeem after his unfinished business was dealt with as destined. We'll never know now.


    Part of me also still wonders what would have happened had TLJ's end played out slightly different. Imagine Kylo's FO forces at Crait about to enter the base as Luke's delay was up and Luke had vanished into the Force. Leia's allies were rushing out the backdoor but not gone yet as right then and there Palpatine reveals himself to the galaxy as in TROS crawl. Everyone hears it, cut to credits and fans wonder for Episode IX for a long time. Will Kylo and Leia unite against him? Will it be a threeway battle? Will Kylo join him?
    Maybe even with Broomboy as an after credits scene now seen in a new light if he is Palpatine returned hehe...
     
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  7. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Imagine an Ep 9 in which a faction of the FO, perhaps with Kylo, oppose the Sith Eternal fleet and the movie is about Kylo and Rey resolving their Dyad, as Finn leads fellow deserters like Jannah in attempting to deprogram FO troopers to stand against the Sith Eternal.

    Yes, it would definitely be even more like SWTOR and the whole Zakuul thing, but...

    IG: @jedisufism
     
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  8. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    I took a month away from Facebook bridging April and May, when I came back I started getting suggested posts in groups that are highly anti-ST. The more I get exposed to those sorts of memes, the more convinced I am that people deliberately misremember and misrepresent what happened in the movie. Especially as regards the Luke and Ben scenes.

    Like, why do they take Kylo's recollection and his statements later in the film as reliable truth? Seems rather silly to me.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I feel the same way when people think the message of the film is "It's time for the Jedi to End" and "Let the past die" as the themes of the movie.

    People do realize that Luke and Kylo are supposed to wrong right?

    I mean I know it's hard to except that Luke is supposed to be wrong...but he is wrong.
     
  10. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    We can thank the trailers for that. The same way "This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel." is the big pop culture line from Rogue One, and it didn't even make it into the film!
     
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  11. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    This post is uncannily prescient. Especially since it was made back in 2018.
     
  12. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    This is actually one of the few things me and this user ever agreed on. Shared universe so....When has context mattered.
     
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