Memph, TN EU Discussion Thread v. 2 - LOTF, KotOR, Dark Times, Rebellion, Legacy and more! (Spoilers!!!)

I just picked it up the other night at Bookstar, and I can't wait to start reading it. Is Anakin suppose to be a full flege Jedi Knight in ROTS? And I couldn't help but say "COOL!" when they mentioned the "Halcyon" jedi.

 

Anakin will be Knighted right after Jedi Trial,. He gets a brief LOA after his knighting and goes home to Naboo to spend some 'quality time' with his wife....a certain pair of famous twins arrive 9 months later.

And yeah, Nejaa Halcyon rocks!

 

Just finished Jedi Trial. Read up, peeps, so we can discuss!

 

Can I borrow it? I don't generally buy hardback.

 

Aah...I'm so out of it, I didn't even know there were anymore prequel era books out.

Last EU I read was Survivor's Quest again(okay, so I just started it again...)

 

I'm barely into Jedi Trial now. I'm a slow reader.

 

I'm barely into Jedi Trial now. I'm a slow reader. I guess that means I can't borrow it.
If the library doesn't have it, can I borrow it over Christmas if you're done with it?

 

OHHHHHH here it is!!! Sorry for ranting in another thread...just paste and copy my previous statement and insert here.

 

Do we have a book discussion thread? If so where is it? I just finished the Medstar duology...and Jedi Trial!! I just have one question for all those other fellow readers of our clan.....is it me or do the Clone War series of books not come close to holding a candle to the NJO books? The worst book in the NJO was a better read than the best book of the Clone War series so far.......so far, the next book I can't wait to read is the ROTS book. I hope the next series is more interesting than the Clone War series has been..........."howwwww embarassing"


John T.




Ok got it now

 

I agree, John. Tim and I were just talking about that the other day.

I enjoyed Jedi Trial, but Shatterpoint has been the only CW novel that has approached the caliber of the NJO and some of the older books.

And it's not just the CW books. It seems, to me, that many of the recent releases have been dumbed-down for the "target teenage audience." Take Survivor?s Quest for example. Die-hard Luke & Mara fan that I am, that book doesn?t hold a candle to Zahn?s previous L/M stuff.

The Hand of Thrawn duo (Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future) set the gold standard of Star Wars novels for me and the only book that equals them, IMHO, is The Unifying Force. (No flames, please.....just my opinion.)

I can appreciate the Lucas powers-that-be trying to attract a younger audience, but they need to remember the ?older? fans who?ve been watching these movies and buying these books for 20+ years. Some of us like to read higher than an 8th grade level.

 

I disagree, mostly.


is it me or do the Clone War series of books not come close to holding a candle to the NJO books? The worst book in the NJO was a better read than the best book of the Clone War series so far.......so far, the next book I can't wait to read is the ROTS book. I hope the next series is more interesting than the Clone War series has been..........."howwwww embarassing"

No, it's you. Seriously though, opinions are different for a reason - they are opinions, so no worries.

I really like Jedi Trial (moreso than Shatterpoint, but I like Anakin so that's to be expected). I'm one of the older readers, too.

I wanted to GET OUT OF THE JUNGLE in Shatterpoint, even though I thought it was okay. The book moved really, really, really slow. I didn't like The Cestus Deception, but the Medstar books were good. I'm looking forward to Dark Rendezvous, LoE and ROTS.

And compared to the NJO? We do not have graphic written, drawn-out detail of entrails in Star Wars. We do not have angst, graphic torture and "pubic hair" (yep, you heard me right...) in Star Wars. It's about escapism. The NJO wasn't a very high standard to get to, IMO. In fact it was the lowest. (Just my opinion...no flames please.)

The NJO was not Star Wars to me. To put it very, very plainly - I thought the NJO sucked.

It's like it was Babylon 5 or Farscape (or some other cheesy sci-fi tv series) playing at being Star Wars.

The beloved holy trilogy characters weren't themselves, other characters were introduced as "teh all powerful!1!1!", and the hero of the story was a Young Jedi Knights character???

There wasn't one author that stood out as good. It drug some really good writers like James Luceno, Troy Denning and Matt Stover down to their level, and that's a shame. Luceno did a great ending, but he veered way away from the NJO formula (I heard he put up a fight to do so after Agents of Chaos), and hit a home run. Thank God. If we were rating the series I'd give it a 3.5 out 10 and the 3.5 is for Luceno, bless his heart. By the end of this series I was wishing that the LFL folks at Del Rey had an amphistaff shoved up their bum and were made to eat that rainbow bridge.

The problem with some of the Clone Wars stuff is that they are trying to reach younger readers so they do "dumb down" their stuff, but not as much as people tout on these forums. I'm one of those older readers that enjoys these more than pre-prequel EU. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. So to me thay aren't forgetting those readers, just using a different approach. I for one will take a little simpler book than 743 pages of "force slugs", blue admirals, and crystal stars(?!?). <---- Of course, this is all better than the NJO, you understand.

Seriously, I tried to read a Bantam era book the other day and had to put it down. It was that ridiculous. (A force gecco breathing "the force" into Luke after he had been beaten by a "teh Dark Jedi"...)

And EVERYONE is a spy for the Rebellion/Empire. We must also have a back story for every extra that stepped on the set of a SW movie. And how many Death Star origins do we have? Might shoulda waited for Lucas on that one...


I read a CW YA Boba Fett (I know I was surprised myself!) book the other day that tied together the relationship of Darth Vader, Boba Fett and even General Tarkin so well it would make you cry. And with no force slugs or Nightsisters even..... *shrug*

So yes, they could be percieved as dumbed down by some, but I don't think it's insulting anyone's intelligence to like these better. They have reality going for them. Real reality, not the apocolyptic kind. Front line battles and all that stuff where people get killed by mortars and detonators rather than Force blasts from the Dark Jedi of the Month. Or a moon falling on them...

I'll take a dumbed down book over inconsistencies any day. The Clon

 

By the end of this series I was wishing that the LFL folks at Del Rey had an amphistaff shoved up their bum and were made to eat that rainbow bridge.

That's what I wanted to do to Jacen Solo from the beginning.... Other than feeling the intense desire to *****-slap him and his twin sister for 3/4 of the series, I enjoyed the NJO as a whole.


And I'm with you on that Zahn/Vader thing. Again, Zahn fan that I am, I hate the way he writes Vader. Thrawn is smarter and Mara is more powerful and thus sent to kill Luke on Tatooine because of his failure on Bespin. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight....

 

That's what I wanted to do to Jacen Solo from the beginning.... Other than feeling the intense desire to *****-slap him and his twin sister for 3/4 of the series, I enjoyed the NJO as a whole.

I think this is because they were never the same - in one book. There were literally 17 - 19 different characterizations of Jacen and Jaina. And probably 15 - 16 of Mara and Luke. *sigh*

Thank God that's over. I could tolerate a few of them, and one or two were good. But the majority of the thing - just.wouldn't.go.away.

 

None of the EU is much cop.

I haven't read anything since the early NJO (blech), certainly not any Clone Wars stuff, but I think Rhonda nailed it.

The Thrawn Trilogy was in large part just a rehash of the OT; anything by KJA, Barbara Hambly, Vonda McIntyre, and the rest isn't fit to wipe your arse with; the HoT was Zahn engaging in Gary Stu/Mary Sue syndrome on a grand scale; and I couldn't stand the certain sickeningly smug and arrogant character created by Stackpole. I still say Aaron Allston was the best of them by a long shot, for his mix of humour, drama, and good characterisation.

As for the NJO, it was simply a second rate Star Trek story which was trying to be dark and edgy and that ended up being labelled as SW.

 

I still say Aaron Allston was the best of them by a long shot, for his mix of humour, drama, and good characterisation.

You are so right there, Ben. The man can write it ALL!!

 

Maybe I should stay away from this thread as some of it is getting my dander up...

Stover is doing ROTS? Cool.

That was my answer to John's question (above) in the other thread. Shatterpoint is a great CW novel--as is Traitor a great NJO novel.

Aaron Allston does write some pretty good stuff--I don't think he's the best, but his scenes between Han and Leia in Rebel Stand/Dream are great (hence, my former signature..."So that's the catch.")

Zahn's not all that--he just gets the accolades for having revived the series.

Edit: All of the above--I.M.H.O.

 

Hey...at least we are talking about them, and not releasing in spoilers for those who haven't caught up. I like any of the EU books/games/comics that can reveal a few more secrets about the force...the jedi and the sith. What I am waiting impatiently is for the ROTS novelization/movie so I can see why Anakin is a "powweerrrfuulll jedi was he...powerful jedi" (<-Yoda...ESB)

I am also curious to see how Luke grows in the force and if he really could be and maybe "is" as strong as Anakin could've been or will be (like father like son?)

The fact that the NJO was going up against an outside galaxy presence that almost killed them....and in the end united the known SW galaxy for the time being was pretty cool. I think what also made the NJO interesting is that it was chronological in it's order and did not skip around. The fact that the main characters were very susceptible to death was pretty scary at sometimes. Reading back on the timeline of the characters is sorta anti-climatic since you know they live.

What would be an interesting formula would be to see if Luke/Leia can discover where they came from and whom they are tied to.....Shmi/Padme and Padme's family.

"They know who their daddy is" . Right ladies?!!?

Learning more about the Jedi,Sith and understanding the force are my motivations for reading the books. Reading about brilliant tactical moves in a large space battle is pretty neat too, but not as enlightening than it is to read the wisdoms and knowledge of the force and it's good and bad points.

One last thing...it sure seems that the Jedi in the Old Republic are really limiting their influence on the matters of the Force and overall balance of things in the Galaxy by having a lot of corruptted senators/chancellors telling them where they need to go and what they need to do. Swearing allegiance to those crooks/scoundrels made it to easy for palps to wipe them out....what a clever, clever man

I think the new government post NJO need to approach the Jedi (enightend ones ) for their/the force's opinions and needs. AHHHH...there always lies the problem though...correct? Power ALWAYS corrupts!!!


John T.

 

Hey...at least we are talking about them, and not releasing in spoilers for those who haven't caught up. I like any of the EU books/games/comics that can reveal a few more secrets about the force...the jedi and the sith. What I am waiting impatiently is for the ROTS novelization/movie so I can see why Anakin is a "powweerrrfuulll jedi was he...powerful jedi" (<-Yoda...ESB)

Oh we'll see in ROTS why he's called a "powerful Jedi" by Yoda, alright.

I'm really looking forward to the novelization. I loves me some Matt Stover. The Shatterpoint storyline would have sucked big-time if it wasn't him writing it.

And I agree on your points about the Jedi, John. I am finding their wings are a bit tarnished with the prequels and Obi is looking on them with rose-colored glasses in ANH. For some who were supposed to be so powerful, they practically handed Anakin to Palpatine on a silver platter. All this while not admitting that they couldn't tell what was going on. It was their arrogance that got them in the end. I think Luke knows this and that's why he doesn't get too involoved in politics with his order.

Jacob, we're all friends here and know that we share some very different opinions on different subjects. Some of them very vehement. But no diffence of opinion over a movie or book should come over relationships. You can say whatever you'd like, we know it's only an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions....

 

Jacob, we're all friends here and know that we share some very different opinions on different subjects. Some of them very vehement. But no diffence of opinion over a movie or book should come over relationships. You can say whatever you'd like, we know it's only an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions....

Exactly. That's why I'm not mentioning the Babylon 5 slam ( ).

As for the EU novels, I haven't been able to get into them really.

I read and loved the first Zahn trilogy. I was starved for Star Wars at the time. Upon re-reading, I still love Heir, like Dark Force, and feel that Command runs out of steam early.
After that, I read Truce at Bakura, and quickly forgot it. And I tried to read The Courtship of Princess Leia, but couldn't get through it.
I'd like to read some of the Clone Wars books eventually. And I will get the X-Wing books, 'cause Wedge is The Man (as opposed to The Jedi). I picked up a couple of the NJO books in hardcover at a clearance bookstore, mostly from curiousity based on posts in this thread. Star by Star and The Unifying Force (with a CD-Rom with the first NJO book on it), and Survivor's Quest 'cause I recognized Zahn's name. I'll get to them eventually (I have soooo many books I need to read... and I keep buying more....).

Mainly, recently, I've been getting into the Clone Wars in the Star Wars: Republic comics from Dark Horse. I love John Ostrander's writing. He seems to get more characterization in a 22-page story than a lot of authors get in a novel. And he doesn't have to sacrifice action to do it. They balance using the EU characters, with filling us in on what is going on with the key movie characters, especially Obi-Wan and Anakin. (And Jan Duursema's art doesn't hurt, either.)

But, I'm an old comics fan from way back. In fact, I read the Jedi adaptation before I got to see the movie.

Later,
-Joe

 

And then we have books like Tales from Jabba's Palace.

Do all of the fringe characters really need names, much less backstories? Who cares about the friggin Gran and Max Rebo.

And Zahn's story about Mara being sent to Jabba's palace to kill Luke is complete crap.

Saddest part is, the two best stories in the blasted thing are Oola's Tale by Kathy Tyers (a personal favorite of mine among SW authors) and a story about Ephant Mon. Other than that- crap, crap, crap.


I really enjoyed the MedStar series. It didn't focus so much on Barriss or the Jedi, but moreso on the folks who really were doing the work in the war.

And as for Zahn, he's great at subplots, and at backing himself in a corner with one of those subplots (which is why we ended up with Luuke Skywalker). He also is the father of the biggest Gary Stu to ever grace the Star Wars Expanded Universe. All he did was paint himself blue, pop in some red contacts, and don a white admiral's uniform. And then he gave us the force-slugs. Ugh. And then he came back with Survivor's Quest and tried to write romance. Double-ugh. If Zahn had been responsible for writing everything dealing with Luke and Mara's relationship, then there'd be no Ben Skywalker. They's still be busy taking off their boots instead of knocking them.

I'll have to agree with Rhonda on the NJO not fitting so well with SW. It did feel more like Star Trek to me, for one thing. It also seemed to be a complete, yet extended, rehash of what Kathy Tyers did several years before with Truce at Bakura. And while it had a handful of good books by some very talented authors (Stover, Allston, Luceno, and Tyers), it completely lost the feel of the Saga, and, overall, it murdered characterization completely.

And as for the Bantam-era books- Man, that's a jumbled mess. It seemed like we had one author after another fixing crap (i.e.- The Emperor Reborn) that another author decided to throw in. It was completely out of control. And while there were some really good books in there, there were twice as man bad ones.

One good thing about the Prequel/Clone Wars-era books is that they finally have the continuity that the Bantham-era completely lacked. That, and they are getting direction and feedback from the god of the SW universe himself. But, like Traci, I feel that the writing is dumbed-down quite a bit for a younger audience. I know that's their target demographic, but the market has been aimed at an older audience for so long, and has sold so well, that I don't understand their decision.

As for Matt Stover and the ROTS novelization... I can't wait to see what he does. He's going to mess with our heads the same way he did in Shatterpoint and Traitor. He's good with the psychological stuff, and that's what I like best about him.

And God bless Steve Perry for doing such a bang-up job with Shadows of the Empire. That book probably fits best with the SW universe, and seamlessly binds TESB and ROTJ together.

 

Joe, to be honest I only ever watched one or two episodes of Babylon 5, so my comparison to it is from a very limited knowledge base. I do, however, think those tv series (even Trek) are meant to be more cheesy than say...Star Wars, which also has its share of cheese. Just not as much. So, not a total slam at Babylon 5, which is good for its genré - it's just not Star Wars mythological type material. Neither is the NJO. But I think I've made my feelings known on the NJO - so I won't beat a dead horse.

I know that's their target demographic, but the market has been aimed at an older audience for so long, and has sold so well, that I don't understand their decision.

I actually think apart from one or two books or series, the Bantam-era "more adult targeted" books didn't actually sell so well. Every one of the Clone Wars novels have made the Best Sellers list also, more by association than anything else probably, but that could also be said for the pre-prequel EU.

I'm loving the Rebublic, Empire and Tales comics. I can't wait for Obsession, first one this month!!!

(i.e.- The Emperor Reborn) Do not even get me started on what that comic did to Return of the Jedi and the central theme to the SW saga.


Dark Empire [image=http://www.rhonderoo.com/flashfire.gif]

 

Joe, to be honest I only ever watched one or two episodes of Babylon 5, so my comparison to it is from a very limited knowledge base.

That's kinda what I figured, actually.

I do, however, think those tv series (even Trek) are meant to be more cheesy than say...Star Wars, which also has its share of cheese. Just not as much.

Well, let's just say there are different levels of cheese - Star Trek psuedo-science technobabble cheese and George Lucas dialogue cheese, for example.

The worst part of most of the Star Trek stuff, to me, was the episodic feel - nothing ever really changed. You had some good stories (and some dreck), but next week, everything was basically the same. Not so with Star Wars! Boy do we get change, eh!

So, not a total slam at Babylon 5, which is good for its genré - it's just not Star Wars mythological type material.

A lot of people just look at an episode or two, see the funny make-up or (admittedly) cost effective special effects, and just see it as a cheesy Trek knock-off.

However, there's a LOT of mythology going on in Babylon 5. There's also a lot of change (as noted in my previous paragraph). What Joe Straczynski aimed for (and mostly accomplished) was to tell one story in a five year arc. While George Lucas could tell his story in three episodes (or six, once he was ready ), TV series had to constantly worry about being cancelled, or worry about what was next if they weren't cancelled.

JMS sold Babylon 5 as a novel for television, and always maintained that it would end after 5 seasons. (If cancelled before then, so be it.) In that way, he told, in my opinion, one of the best science-fiction stories out there, while lacing it with history, mythology, romance, and political intrigue.

Admittedly, it's tough to grab onto if you start watching in the middle (like picking up the second book in a trilogy), but I managed it starting in the third season. I'm getting all of the seasons on DVD.

I can't speak for Farscape as we didn't have Sci-Fi channel when it started, so we never got into it (I do have a lot of friends who tell me, "It's more than just muppets, dude"). But, say, Stargate SG-1, tries to do long-term storytelling, and it doesn't work as well for me. On Andromeda the two main writers wanted to add a nice long involved overarching storyline about rebuilding that universe's version of The Republic to the series, but Kevin Sorbo wanted episodic shows where he would go help someone new every week (Hercules with a spaceship). They quit after that.

If anyone is interested in trying B5, let me know and I can loan you my DVDs.

(To keep on the subject of books, much like with Trek and SW, a good portion of the B5 books suck, but a couple of them are top notch, including one that JMS says is officially in canon and should be considered an episode.)


-Joe

 

Guy from Galaxy Quest voice: I'm just jazzed to be talking about the EU!


Seriously, variety is the spice of life. This would be reeeeeaaaallllyy boring thread if we all had the same opinions. Disagreements make room for discussion and growth, as long as they're handled properly.

You should see Rhonda and I hashing out fanfic. We have disagreement down to a catch-phrase: "Don't hate me but....that sentence/paragraph/characterization really doesn't work." And then we get compliments about the end result, so it's a good thing.

 

I've read SW EU before that made me actually cry out a resounding "BS!", but, last night, I read something that eclipsed that scene from The Courtship of Princess Leia.

Why I continue to read Tales from Jabba's Palace is perplexing. But last night I started reading a story about EV-9D9, (the droid that assigns Artoo and Threepio their jobs at Jabba's Palace), and actually said to myself, "Oh, this is just F'd up." Someone decided to make EV-9D9 into the droid equivalent of the Marquis de Sade in an effort to explain why he's torturing droids.

Sadism in Star Wars. How about a big nuh-uh on that one.

 

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