main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate European ultranationalists!

Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    I know the guy who took that picture, he's married to my ex.
     
    Ender Sai likes this.
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Ok but there's a chance, a strong chance, that Wilders will replace Rutte, yes?

    And there are issues that people won't talk about in Holland, which means someone like Mr Wilders, who says the most shocking stuff he can, fills the gap?
     
  3. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Well, if the PVV does become the biggest party, it still needs to get a coalition together.
    If it can't - new elections. If it can, that means the VVD has sold out.
    So I think we should be watching what the VVD does.
     
  4. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
  5. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
  6. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
  7. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Trump has unequivocally become a European-style ethno-nationalist, and in so doing, may help precipitate the end of a stable peace in the European subcontinent. This is the most dangerous time in the world since the Cuban Missile Crisis.
     
  8. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Hej, don't blame this on us. He is American-style ethno-nationalist. Made in USA, by USA.
     
    Ender Sai likes this.
  9. Darth_Voider

    Darth_Voider Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2015
    True, but doesn't change anything. He'll still destabilize peace here in Europe anyway.
     
  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Please, that blue collar simplicity is your virtue, not Europe's.
     
  11. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Yeah, the European variety at least want to leave the social welfare system in tact. It's a big part of their appeal since many center-left parties went the third way a la Blair and Schröder.
     
  12. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    The anti-muslim yappery from the Trump cabal is taken straight from the European anti-muslim parties' manifests. They've been honing that crap for nearly two decades now.
    For the rest, yes, Trump is all-American.
     
  13. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Yes but if you look at Wilders' core policy goals the anti-Muslim thing is the only overlap.

    Main difference though? There are actually visible influences from Muslim migrants in Holland. They're (the Yanks) reacting like they have anything like Europe or Australia's Muslim population and their influence.
     
  14. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    I'm not talking about the "blue collar simplicity," though that doesn't even describe Trump, who has never been blue collar in his life. I am talking about the ethno-nationalist form of conservatism that has been a feature of the right and far-right in a number of European countries, from France to the UK to the Netherlands to Hungary, for some time (and is currently driven by people like Farage, Le Pen and Wilders). In the US, this approach is currently being driven by Trump's chief strategist, Steve Bannon. And he is no simpleton. He's a dangerous racist nationalist that may be trying to precipitate a constitutional crisis.

    This form of ethno-nationalism has actually never been successful in translating itself into political power in the US until now. So yes, in this sense, Trump is following a far-right European tradition, and not an American one.

    Of course Trump himself is an American phenomenon. Nobody is refuting that. But the racist policies being promoted at the moment are more akin to far-right European policy prescriptions than they are akin to far-right American policy prescriptions.

    As a student of American and European history, and the intersections between the two, I can say without questions that this is a new and extraordinary union of far-right perspectives on both sides of the Atlantic, and massively dangerous for that reason.
     
  15. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Firstly; Trump is absolutely blue collar. There's nothing sophisticated about him; his boorishness is totally aligned to blue collar values.

    Secondly, there is no alignment. There is some basis to the concerns Wilders et al have about Muslim migration; in multicultural societies, there is greater influence from things like traditional Islamic shari'a on the wider culture. Futhermore there has been a long term connection between Muslim migrants and Europe that the US does not have. Therefore you are comparing a multicultural society wrestling with the fundamental ideals of tolerance vs liberalism, compared to an assimilationist approach which is basically being bigoted to a non-existent group.

    So when Partij voor de Vrijheid demand all Government communication is in Dutch or Frisian, they are doing this in response to something tangible. When you look at true crime statistics for Moroccans there is a heavy per capita representation (which Wilders will attribute to something unkind, but would be in my view largely socio-economic) that fuels the Dutch resistance to these communities. But by contrast I'd be surprised if the edicts around incredibly harsh punishments for those who commit hate crimes against LBGTQI would be echoed by Trump.

    Comparing the two is ham-fisted, ignorant, and superficial.

    No what has happened is that in Europe a backlash against the actual influence of actual Muslims in actual European cities has arisen, and rightly or wrongly they are gaining traction. By contrast, America has elected a President who typifies America and they lack the self-awareness to realise the traits people hate in him are the traits the world hates in America. And his is a much more crass, angry, reactionary, cruel and pernicious ideology than those. It is hard to imagine in a worst case scenario of Marine Le Pen or Geert Wilders being leaders that after an initial circle jerk over their shared anti-Muslim bigotry they'd find much else in common with the Orange One.

    You just don't have the Muslim population to base the comparison on. America's banning people who are more phantoms than real.
     
  16. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    You're missing my point entirely.

    I am not comparing the demographic picture of America to that of Europe. In Europe, there is of course a much larger Muslim population than in the U.S., and Europe suffers under what Timothy Garton Ash has described as "plural monoculturalism." A failed form of multiculturalism wherein non-Muslim and Muslim communities exist side by side, but do not touch. The "tossed salad" to America's "melting pot." But as you rightly state, the Muslim community in the US is so small, and the social interaction between Muslim and non-Muslim communities is so sparse, that there are really no social conflicts that have arisen. At all, really. That said, I do think your light defense of people like Wilders, etc, is a form of apologism, as it seems to lay the blame primarily with the Muslim communities for not being well-integrated, rather than on the European governments (and perhaps publics) that do a poor job of facilitating that integration.

    But that's all beside the point.

    The point I made, which was lost in your strawman construct, was that Donald Trump is adopting the rhetoric and the policy approach, of LePen and Wilders, despite the fact that the issue is indeed a nonexistent one in this country. So nonexistent, that up until this point, it wasn't a political issue at all. Also, to make that case, Trump is using the example of terrorism and open borders in Europe, and the response to that from the far right in Europe, as a justification for putting in policies to "prevent" that kind of social landscape being realized in the United States. And in that sense, he is adopting a European far-right perspective before it is even remotely justified (not that it ever is). He's characterizing Europe as a hellish multicultural landscape (branded "Eurabia" by some people advising him), and arguing that the U.S. must do everything in its power, including issuing illegal Executive Orders, to prevent that from happening.

    In short, I believe we were talking past each other. In no way am I equating the social dynamics of the U.S. and Europe. I am simply noting what's become obvious. Trump/ Bannon have adopted the rhetoric of the European far-right to combat a phantom menace. Nay, a nonexistent menace.

    And on that, I think we can both agree.
     
  17. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm not defending Wilders; I'm taking any tolerance for brush-tarring off the table when these people are responding to observable trends which I make no value judgement on. For the record I do not support Partij voor de Vrijheid or any of those groups.

    And even if it is true and Trump/Bannon adopted this rhetoric - from what I know, it's unlikely given they've only lately started to expand Brietarse into Europe - then they're just parroting a situation that they cannot relate to. This means there is an added dimension of complexity - you can't address the symptoms in the same way.
     
    Gigoran Monk likes this.
  18. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    So let me get this straight, you're saying that Wilders is against Muslim immigration because he believes Muslims don't respect the values of liberal democracy? And you're saying this is justified...a little bit...because Muslims do run into a lot of issues with us with regards things like free speech and blasphemy?

    And you're saying Trump is different in that he's just hollering "MUZLIMS! EVIL!" and we're lapping it up despite there not being anywhere near enough Muslims in America that would pose such problems to us?
     
    Chyntuck likes this.
  19. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    I think it's a YUGE mistake to define Trump as an all-American phenomenon. Not only does it fail to connect him to the trend in the western world and ignores the fact that all these far-right parties are networking, but it also relies on defining Europe as the old-guard EU countries. Compare Trump to the far-right (often presidents/prime ministers) of Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic, and there are a lot of similarities right there.
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  20. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    No, Alpha. You've struggled to follow for a bit now.

    I'm saying in Europe, there is a notable Muslim population. And that population has an impact. I was quite clear and deliberate about not expressing a view either way; I don't live with it and our experience here is going to be similar-but-different.

    So what Wilders et al react to is a presence. What Trump reacts to is a phantom. You cannot be legitimate saying "we have a clash of values" if you have no clash of values, you know? Like not just an assumed one?>
     
    Gigoran Monk likes this.
  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    Again, though, the point of differentiation is clearly different. You cannot tell me that the mere fact they're right wing populists is enough to link them in any meaningful capacity. Like anything else, the Americans cheapened out on the ideology and went full merchant whore on the ultra-right promise which is why they're building such a disparate framework of followers.

    I mean, you've seen the Trump Regret tweets right? Not a lot of people doing the same with AfD or National Front.

    Basically what you lot are suggesting is that Tito, Mao, and Stalin were all really similar because they were communist. It's literally that kind of superficiality.

    I've been saying we need to watch and not underestimate populists for some time now. Distilling them into some vat of "wicked fascists" who are "all the same" because they all believe in ridiculous racial theories is neither helpful nor a prescription for the future.
     
  22. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    These people are nationalists. There is no link. They care about what happens inside their borders. This is not the Socialist International. Any connections is simply resulting from shared domestic turmoil in their own countries and disdain for globalism. This isn't a cohesive global movement.
     
  23. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
  24. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Eh, so how do we explain Trump's support for Brexit and Breitbart going to Germany?
     
  25. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    There is a link. And it's the "ethno" in the "ethno-nationalist" moniker. That ethnic connection is white, Judeo-Christian. And the growing solidarity across these movements is around pushing back a perceived expansionist Islamic threat. A threat to predominately white, Judeo-Christian values. And it's one of the reasons why the Bannon/Trump team has been playing nice with Putin. They're white, and they don't like Muslims. From the Washington Post:

    Full article:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bannon-explained-his-worldview-well-before-it-became-official-us-policy/2017/01/31/2f4102ac-e7ca-11e6-80c2-30e57e57e05d_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-banner-low_bannon-0821pm:homepage/story&utm_term=.4ed3a02ed242