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Senate European ultranationalists!

Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    No. Trump trusts Bannon as long as he is keeping people off-kilter.

    And there is nothing Christian about Bannon.
     
  2. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001

    Sorry, it's a bit of a mixed bag -- I don't know about him in particular, but most of the evangelicals like Pence are absolutely that way. Bannon's in the "no Jew" camp, as are many evangelicals for the reasons I outlined above, though they'd prefer the Holy Land be in control of the Jews rather than "the infidels."

    David Duke is both anti-Semitic and anti-Israel -- though this is unclear whether he wants Israel as a Christian seat and is just unwilling to have Jewish control in the meantime.

    Basically, to use an American term for Chinese food appetizers, the Trump supporters are basically the "pu pu platter" of white nationalism and Christian theocracy.
     
  3. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    What does David Duke have to do with the Trump administration? You are paranoid. This administration is going to be the most pro-Israel and pro-Jewish peoples GOP administration in a very long time. You're just trying to find tenuous things to suit your preconceived narrative. It is what you want to believe, not what is.
     
  4. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

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    Sep 19, 2000
    According to you we're all paranoid, officer Barbrady.
     
    Ender Sai likes this.
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    Well if the shoe fits bub. You're the poster boy for it lately.

    Are you running to the defense of the helpless dp4m? He really does need your help.

    Swarm! Swarm!
     
  6. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'll defer to SuperWatto on this, since my Dutch experience is from the perspective of Dutch liberal intellectuals who were kicked out of the then-city of Batavia in 1950.

    From the way I understand it, Dutch liberalism has a long tradition of religious tolerance. In effect, it eschews any form of discrimination and expects that people living in the Netherlands will broadly speaking get on board with the liberal values of the state. Again, the caveat here is that whilst this tradition may have evolved over time in the Netherlands what I was brought up with by my father and oma/opa would have been fairly static because their liberalism did not evolve.

    Where you have an issue now is that Muslims in particular, globally and generally speaking of the second generation*, are putting their Islamic identity ahead of, and in conflict, with the liberal tolerance of in this case the Netherlands. Some people adapt, but honestly I've not spoken to a Dutch person yet who hasn't seen some areas of concern.

    * So the obvious example here is Ahmed Aboutaleb, the mayor of Rotterdam and a Moroccan-born Labour politician who famously said if Muslims didn't appreciate Western living in Netherlands they could **** off. But on this topic; immigrants, i.e. first generation Dutch Muslims, are more intent on integrating themselves and becoming more adoptive of the culture. Same for a lot of German Turks. It's the kids who grow up feeling torn between two worlds and disenfranchised economically.

    What Wilders wants is some sort of utopian Netherlands that never existed, as far as I can tell. Dutch culture takes primacy, much like how French culture does in France. Government documents are only in Dutch or Frisian, no Arabic translations. People celebrate being Dutch which means being Christian or Jewish. Not necessarily being white, but I feel that's an added bonus.

    France in contrast has a secularism they seem as sexual confused by as Americans do with guns. It's French to be secular, anyone who doesn't eat pork for religious reasons must be un-Frenchican! Or something.

    I get it, and I kind of feel like if you go to France you ought expect this, but I feel it's also fairly illiberal.

    I've little reason to suspect that FN will end up the ruling party in France now. Same as Wilders; PVV might be leading the polls but I can't see the liberals or labour forming coalition with him.

    I want to but don't want to look into it a bit more. Like, would the FN care if you were Jewish so long as you weren't Jewish in public (and yes, I know it's an identity as much as it is a faith, but I'm trying to think from their limited perspective).
     
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  7. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Hey SuperWatto, what does David Duke have to do with the Trump administration? o_O

    You guys are very torn up about all of this. It's very funny. It would be even funnier if it didn't represent a wider failure.

    Stop the presses! Ender thinks Front Nationale wont win! Amazing. These new revelations weeks, I mean seconds, old suggesting the Conservatives wont back her and instead form a coalition with the left is astonishing!

    I am amazed.

    I've learned something new today and it comes from Ender as usual. He never fails to disappoint.
     
  8. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Right, again I'm generally agreeing with you (Ender Sai ) in principle, if not in fact.

    I tend to agree with you, though I'd also imagine that it's probably okay to wear kippahs and tsistsis out in public, as I'd hope it would for hijab, burqa, etc. so long as you're, y'know, being you and not trying to proselytize or anything. Which, given that it's proscribed in Judaism and I rarely see it (if it's not also proscribed in Islam), has high probability.

    In France, I think you could have expected that -- but no longer. That's my sense, of course, not having been back in many years...
     
  9. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Shane, all my warnings thus far about Trump have been proven correct. All your expectations thus far have been proven wrong.
    You would do well to at least not dismiss my positions as paranoid, and to ask yourself how useful your dismissive attitude is and has been.
     
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  10. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    What "MY warnings" have been proven correct? Do you mean the same warnings that were ubiquitous since he announced his candidacy?

    These warnings aren't new. They even precede Trump. They just stuck to him.

    But what ones specifically?

    dp4m, oh deep ended one, what does David Duke have to do with the Trump administration?

    Hurry, go to Vox and buzzfeed to find out!
     
  11. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Shane are you just trying to prove yourself the silliest person here? I don't think it was in doubt, but you're basically loudly screaming "Torah! Torah! Torah!" at dp4m and others as you slam your Zero into the deck of the USS Common Sense.

    I'm fine with you going down in self-lit flames, but I must object to you taking others with you. Walk away for a bit.
     
  12. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    ES, I would agree with that assessment, although you're being too nice on Wilders.
    Look at his electorial programme.
    - no more asylum seekers or immigrants from any muslim country
    - retraction of all residence permits for muslims
    - preventive incarceration of radical muslims
    - all mosques and islamic schools closed
    - prohibition of the Koran
    - out of the EU
    - more police
    - no more money towards development aid and... windmills
    - ***ing *******. lower taxes.
     
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  13. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    Oh dp4m can't answer my question can he? Has to have big bad Ender come to his rescue. [face_laugh]

    Pathetic.

    Get a job. A real one not serving as dp4m's bodyguard.

    The silliest thing actually is dp4m trying to make David Duke a member of Trump's administration. THAT is silly.

    Come on Ender…what else you got?
     
  14. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Are Dunning & Kruger Enterprises hiring? Can you put in a good word for me?

    See I hadn't looked at PVV's manifesto for some time and then I see this and I hit up Google and struggle through some of the translation but think... well. Yep. Also do I understand correctly that they want no state funding to go to any left-leaning party or organisation?

    The windmills thing is cute; 'clean coal; instead.

    ...
     
  15. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Not to pile on, but here are some alt-facts (one supposes) to go with the alt-right...

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/politics/white-nationalists-on-bannon/
    http://www.inquisitr.com/2649355/da...t-donald-trumps-white-nationalist-supporters/

    David Duke@DrDavidDuke
    Follow

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    We did it! Congratulation Donald J. Trump President of the United States of America!

    9:02 AM - 20 Jan 2017
    They certainly all appear chummy with one another... everything primarily goes through Steve Bannon, and the exact campaign that Trump himself ran (where he said "I approve this message" at the end of anti-Semitic TV commercials)...
     
  16. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I would but they don't accept people who worship Mammon and sacrifice their puppies in his name.

    dp4m, again how is David Duke connected to the Trump administration? Seriously. That was your assertion. You mentioned him along with Bannon. Big difference.

    And resize your gif. Goof.

    Your grasp of what a connection means is questionable.

    And how does all of this = the same as European nationalists?

    Hurry guys…mob! Swarm!
     
  17. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Shane, why do you always get so furious if Trump gets lumped in with the neonazis or the like? It's almost as if you have a dog in that fight.
     
  18. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    Always get so furious? I'm not furious. I am saying that American nationalism/populism is its own flavor. Doesn't mean it's not racist, anti-semitic, etc etc. But the assertion it is directly connected as a part of a worldwide, or at least European phenomenon, is inaccurate.

    That actually minimizes what is happening in Europe as something the Americans caused or were a part of. It's a way to deflect from the real failures of the EU to handle migration and economic problems.

    And the people decrying ISIS and others in Europe are fighting against that groups conservatism. That is different than Muslims here and what Trump is even talking about with "fighting radical Islam". The rhetoric is different and the way we see them is as well.
     
  19. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Also, for the record (or, Hillary supporter, Correct The Record), I never said Duke was connected to the Trump administration, It's up above. The relevant part:

    It's part of the import of a white nationalistic movement (Trump's campaign) attracting supporters like this (and the KKK, Stormfront, Brietbart, Richard Spencer, etc.), and then having Bannon (a part of those same groups) craft policy that's then exported (i.e. the Muslim Ban, etc.). Everything goes through Bannon.
     
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  20. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

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    Sep 19, 2000
  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Except we've all broadly accepted that the common thread is their racial ideology.

    You are right to highlight their points of difference. People who don't drill down to that level of detail need to fear the results of "100 battles".

    But we're not saying there's a global fraternity of right wing ideologues. We're talking about how there are these platforms that are all racist and populist. Some, like the PVV, borrow from left and right positions whereas others, like FN or AfD, are solidly right wing (example: PVV wants to institute stricter penalties for hate crimes against the LGBTQI community; AfD rejects any notion of same sex marriage). Trump, still, is, less coherent and cohesive and is using a lot of their platform not out of conviction but because it suits the divide-and-conquer objectives he apparently set himself.

    Noting the common thread of, and threat from, racial nationalism is not blurring any lines.
     
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  22. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    No, that wasn't the part. It was the post above that.

    Ender Sai, my argument is really a carryover form Chyntukt's argument yesterday that there was some conjoined movement of nationalists, some kind of pan-nationalism.

    Of course there are similarities. But, are they similarities that lead them to smile and wave at one another and express some shared sentiments or is it something more?

    My contention is the evidence for a connection is tenuous. It is wrong to lump all of these people together as part of a wider phenomenon. There are too many variables and differentiations. That was also why I brought up Trump's devotion to Israel and free Jewish peoples. That is a pretty big difference.

    No, it doesn't mean his other views don't also appeal to anti-semities or even anti-Zionists.

    But, if there is a wider international-"nationalism" at work, they likely wouldn't be discussing bilateralism. They'd instead be embracing the existing global system and wanting to take the wheel.
     
  23. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Yes. We get this. It was agreed earlier and we were talking about the areas of overlap, and specifically what Trump et al are extracting from Europe for their own agenda.

    You're arguing with largely yourself, since we're discussing something else and not disagreeing with that point.
     
  24. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    Eh dp4m, has repeatedly conflated the two and is only bailed out because you are afraid to call him on it when he is challenged by someone else. He placed David Duke directly after Bannon and Pence. That was ridiculous. Seriously, is he your little brother? It's an absurd placement of him alongside real members of the administration.
     
  25. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm sorry.

    You are suggesting the guy I relentlessly call out for being a Clintonite - Thatcherite, basically - and calling himself progressive (you can be progressive or you can have supported Clinton; not both) is someone I'm afraid to call out?

    Shane, you know when they talk about people drinking "the Kool-Aid" in the Jonestownian sense? Have you been, you know, drinking The Kool Aid?