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Discussions Expanded Universe contradictions

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by The Emotional Jedi, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    That's actually what I always thought. The Force Unleashed feels like it exists in its own universe and it's not really referenced in the rest of the EU.

    They did resolve the whole multiple attempts to steal the Death Star plans thing, but I honestly do prefer how Disney make their version much less convoluted.
     
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  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    well funny enough most of these contradictions multiple stories and what not are always patched up in sourcebook which I think fans who read this stuff with it existing for a long time get the impression it was always cohesive when in reality it wasn’t

    but with it being what they’ve known it create the impression it was
     
  3. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 18, 2021
    I still don’t understand how The Force Unleashed contradicts the Original Trilogy. You said that several times, but I still don’t know what contradictions you’re talking about. How does the fact that Darth Vader had a secret apprentice contradict the Original Trilogy? How does the creation of the Rebel Alliance contradict the Original Trilogy? It should also be remembered that the video game was part of the S Canon, while the novelization was part of the C Canon. So the novelization is the authentic version of what really happened, while the video game is just an exaggerated version of what happened.

    It was Luke who discovered Hoth and told the Rebel Alliance, all the other versions don’t count. This is the official version and also the one reported on Wookiepedia: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hoth/Legends#cite_note-GG3-3

    That’s true, but no one has ever seriously considered the 2013 Dark Horse comics. In all the Expanded Universe timelines available online nobody ever includes the 2013 Dark Horse comics. So I don’t think it’s a problem, also because those comics were written too late to be able to make a complete retcon of the Expanded Universe existing between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, since in 2014 the Expanded Universe was decanonized.

    Since "Obsession" and "Boba Fett: Pursuit" take place shortly after each other, you can slightly move "Boba Fett: Pursuit" into the timeline, making the novel happen immediately before "Obsession". I admit that officially it's a contradiction, but it's not such a difficult contradiction to resolve. Moreover, there is no specific reference in the novel to suggest that it necessarily takes place after "Obsession".

    That’s true, people will enjoy the stories they prefer regardless of whether they are Canon or not, but having an official timeline is important to manage everything as consistently as possible, because otherwise it would be enough to publish random stories that have nothing to do with each other, and then leave it to the fans to choose which stories they like best. That’s not how it works. I’m the first to argue the need for every fan to have a personal Canon, but at the same time I think that having an official Canon is very important. Also, I think having a cohesive timeline with as few contradictions as possible is essential, and the Legends continuity without TCW is much more cohesive than with TCW. If one day Disney Lucasfilm will decide to continue to expand the Legends continuity then I think it’s imperative that TCW and related materials are removed from this continuity, because in this way we will have two cohesive and consistent continuities, both suitable for new stories to be written within them. The Legends continuity is a mess precisely because Disney has decided to leave TCW within this continuity, and this is one of the main reasons why fans of the New Canon say "The EU has no consistent continuity". That’s why I think it’s important to talk about this. I don’t want to remove TCW from the Legends continuity because I don’t like the series, in fact, it’s exactly the opposite! I love the series and so I want it to be part of a continuity that suits it, not a continuity that has nothing to do with it. I like consistency. That’s all.
     
  4. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    I literally already made it very clear how The Force Unleashed contradicts the original trilogy. Bail Organa was exposed as a traitor during the game and was set to be publicly executed yet was living on Alderaan by A New Hope with no indication that he was a fugitive. No matter how you frame it, this makes no sense.

    So wait, it's perfectly fine for Luke's version of finding Hoth to be true and ignoring the other version... but not okay for the final season of The Clone Wars to overwrite the Ahsoka novel and for the Bad Batch to overwrite the Kanan comics? Double standards, much?

    Moving Pursuit to before Obsession doesn't work either, considering that Anakin thinks Ventress is dead in Obsession (a reference to "Dreadnaughts of Rendili") and that Ventress is on life support during Obsession. Ventress appearing shortly before Obsession in Pursuit doesn't make any sense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  5. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 18, 2021
    Until a few months ago I thought as you, but the more I analyze it, the more I realize that the Legends version makes a lot more sense. It would be very foolish for the Empire to keep the Death Star plans in one place, because that way a single rebel mission would be enough to steal all the plans and jeopardize the existence of the Death Star (and in fact this is precisely what happened in Rogue One). Dividing the Death Star plans into several parts and dispersing the individual parts of the Death Star plans around the galaxy makes much more sense, because in this way the Rebel Alliance is forced to undertake various missions to steal all parts of the plans, So it’s very likely that the Rebels won’t be able to steal all the individual parts. The Legends version makes a lot more sense, because it doesn’t make the Empire look like a bunch of incompetent people.

    This is not a contradiction, it's a plot hole. Contradictions and plot holes are not the same thing. Besides, I’ve already explained why I don’t consider it a real plot hole. If you want to continue to consider it a plot hole you are free to do so, but for me it's not. Moreover, this has nothing to do with the Original Trilogy because Bail Organa doesn't appear in the Original Trilogy even for a second, so I have no idea why you had to pull out the original trilogy when it had nothing to do with it. You want to consider it a plot hole? Great, but then it’s a plot hole in general, it’s not a plot hole compared to the Original Trilogy because in the Original Trilogy Bail Organa never appears and is never even mentioned.

    Unfortunately I have never read the Young Boba Fett novels and so I am not able to give an elaborate opinion on this issue. It all depends on what Ventress did in the novel you mentioned, it depends on what she did and why she left the scene at some point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
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  6. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Except the Legends version still doesn't make sense. The video game Lethal Alliance shows Rianna Saren escaping Despayre shortly before its destruction and contacts Princess Leia then, yet the novel Death Star depicts the destruction of Despayre as taking place during the events of A New Hope and after Leia's capture. The Legends version is still overly convoluted and contradictory.

    Bail Organa is still mentioned in A New Hope, though not by name, and the rest of the Expanded Universe establishes that he was on Alderaan during its destruction. The radio drama even shows him hosting a dinner with Lord Tion on Alderaan shortly before A New Hope. So yes, The Force Unleashed does contradict other material because that material doesn't have Bail Organa's membership with the Rebel Alliance known while The Force Unleashed exposes it.

    Ventress attacked Boba Fett in a dogfight and Anakin intervened, driving her off. This does not line up with Obsession.
     
  7. silentfault

    silentfault Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 5, 2021
    There is no Legends Continuity, because it isn't maintained and it isn't continued, and it will most likely never be continued, ever. Legends Continuity is what you make of it. At this point in time, there is exactly one official timeline, the canon timeline. If you don't like TCW in Legends - you just ignore it. I don't think TCW is referenced at all whatsoever in any pre-TCW CW material. It's not like you have to perform any mental gymnastics to ignore it. I literally can't see the issue. You won't get any "official" removal, because this continuity isn't officially maintained and is effectively discarded, sans SW:TOR. And how is it supposed to be "removed?" Like who has the authority to say it? You would feel relieved if Pablo Hidalgo tweeted: "TCW in Legends doesn't count, folks!" That's all it takes? What do you do with all the guides to warfare and atlases? They exist already. So you will just ignore them? But you can ignore it right now anyway. It's really a non-issue, as far as I am concerned.

    I really dislike Revan novel and anything related to SW:TOR. It contradicts KotOR 2. Revan never met Sith Empire. Revan turned because it was his choice, not because he was brainwashed by super-duper Sith Emperor. His entire character and motivations were destroyed in the novel and TOR. The Exile was also handled extremely poorly. In the end, I just ignore it. When I play KotOR games, I enjoy them, and I don't think about whatever happens after. Because it's irrelevant and has no effect on the story I actually like.

    For TCW being in Legends, blame Leland Chee. Both Lucas and Filoni stated from the beginning, that TCW is not the EU. It's Star Wars as Lucas sees it. Licensing back in the day was really going hard with their "everything counts" and religiously trying to make everything fit as if it's some accurate archive records, which was nothing but a marketing gimmick. People can't enjoy the stories just for the sake of it, apparently, it must count and be 100% accurate and fit neatly with absolutely everything, or else! I can't wrap my head around this "issue," but different strokes for different folks, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
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  8. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I'd like to take this statement further...There is no Legends Continuity because the continuity that became legends was never meant to be a single continuity in the first place. It was pretty much everything lumped in from 2012 and before. Like the old Marvel comics were essentially soft rebooted when the Thrawn Trilogy began and then things were soft rebooted again in 1999 when the Prequel started.

    Heck even Dark Horses and Bantam never fully cooperated with one another because it was never meant to be a completely coordinated things.
     
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  9. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 18, 2021
    @CosmoHender
    1) All right, Lethal Alliance contradicts Death Star. I acknowledge and accept it. But that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was talking about how the Empire divided the Death Star plans and scattered them around the galaxy. What does this have to do with the contradictions between Lethal Alliance and Death Star? I simply said that the idea that the Empire divides the Death Star plans and scatters them around the galaxy makes more sense than the idea that the Empire keeps the plans in one place, while you brought up a subject that had nothing to do with what I was talking about.
    2) All right, Bail Organa was on Alderan during A New Hope. We all agree on that, no one is denying that he was on Alderan. The point is that for me, the fact that he’s on Alderan isn't a contradiction, while for you it is. That’s the difference between us, the fact that you consider a contradiction something that for me isn't a contradiction. I have already explained why I don't consider it a contradiction. If you aren’t willing to accept my explanation you are free to do so, because after all, each of us has a personal view of things, and if you think that my explanation isn't logical then you are free to think so. Doesn’t it make sense to you? Great. It makes sense to me. That’s it. Besides, the radio dramas also contradict the Prequel Trilogy, so I don’t think we can rely so much on the radio dramas. When I talk about the films I refer exclusively to the films, I never refer to the novelizations or the radio dramas, especially when I talk about the Original Trilogy. The Original Trilogy novelizations and the Original Trilogy radio Dramas were created before the Prequel Trilogy, and therefore contain many contradictions with the Prequels and the post-1999 Expanded Universe. So, I never consider them, and honestly I never understood why after the release of the Prequels George Lucas didn’t commissioned a rewriting of the novelizations and a remake of the radio Dramas.
    3) If Anakin was already a Jedi Knight, then you could move the novel by making it happen immediately after Jedi Trial, if Anakin was still a Padawan then I don’t know. But I suppose that in the novel you mentioned Anakin is already a Knight since the novel takes place practically at the end of the War. You can move the novel by making it happen immediately after Jedi Trial, or alternatively you could move it even further in the timeline making it happen immediately after Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

    @silentfault
    Look, I understand what you’re trying to say, but I disagree. I hope the Legends universe will be exhumed and expanded further. If you think that my wish will never come true and that it's unrealistic, you are free to think so, but I keep hoping that sooner or later Disney will resume the Legends universe and start to expand it further. So, everything I say must be interpreted in the light of this desire of mine: I want TCW and related materials to be removed from the Legends universe because I want the Legends universe to be exhumed and expanded further, and for this to be done as consistently as possible we need to remove TCW from the Legends timeline. Besides, I don’t agree with what you said about continuity. I'm the first to say that every fan should have a personal Canon, but having an official timeline is extremely important. It’s important that this timeline is as consistent as possible and it's important that everything that can fit into this timeline is integrated. I agree that not everything should be integrated, but I think that we should try to integrate everything that fits. Continuity matters, you can’t just appreciate the Star Wars stories for what they are. Otherwise, the authors could write a story set during the Pre-Old New Republic Era in which Luke shanwalker falls in love with Han Jar Binks and rides a three-headed flying Rancor to free him from the captivity of Darth Kylomalgus Revanidious the Wise on Rakataxus Prime. After all, continuity doesn’t matter and you have to appreciate the Star Wars stories just for what they are, right? No, I’m sorry, but in my opinion that’s not how it works. But if you don't agree with me, then I will not try to change your mind because: a) I have no intention of doing so; b) even if I wanted I would not have enough willpower to do so.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  10. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    My point was that the Legends explanation doesn't really make the Empire look more competent, it just makes it convoluted especially since not everything lines up. The Canon explanation doesn't necessarily make the Empire or the Rebels less competent and it's still less unnecessarily convoluted. The contradictions do hurt the Legends version.
     
  11. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 18, 2021
    For me the Legends version isn’t convoluted. It’s true that not everything aligns perfectly, but even the main 6 films don’t align perfectly, so I don’t understand what’s the problem. There are some small contradictions and that’s it. Overall, I find it a good explanation and it makes sense to me. Also, if we have to say it all, then even Rogue One has some contradictions. For example, in Catalyst it’s said that Galen Erso was the one who designed the laser cannon of the Death Star, while in Rogue One it’s said that the design error that the Rebels exploit in A New Hope to destroy the station was created by him. Since Galen Erso’s job was to design the Death Star laser cannon and that he had no other tasks besides this, how can he created a design error in an area that was not even his area of expertise (since the design error was related to the central reactor)? Also, how did the Empire to track down the Tantive IV? At the beginning of A New Hope we see that a star destroyer is chasing the Tantive IV, but this contradicts Rogue One, because at the end of the film the Tantive IV makes an hyperspace jump. Since you can’t track ships when they’re in hyperspace, how did the Empire track down the Tantive IV? It doesn’t make sense. So, even the Disney version has some contradictions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  12. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Then why did you say Disney didn't care about continuity when you then admitted that not even the six films align perfectly and that Legends has contradictions, some small and some not small. It comes across as hypocritical.

    Since Galen Erso worked on the laser, that meant he also worked on the reactor powering the laser which allowed him to leave a weakness in the reactor for the Rebel Alliance to exploit. Not a contradiction.

    Whenever a ship jumps to hyperspace, it leaves behind a drive signature. If you know what a ship's drive signature is, you can track it through hyperspace. The Tantive IV was damaged in a mission before the Battle of Scarif, which is why it was docked in the Profundity and not participating in the battle. Its crew were frantically making repairs, but they ran out of time. The hyperdrive was still damaged, creating a very unique and obvious drive signature that anyone could follow. Vader simply followed the trail, tracking them to Tatooine. Makes sense and not a contradiction.
     
  13. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 27, 2016
    The Expanded Universe had a continuity yes it has retcons and but continuity existed there was a timeline the universe exist but ended in 2014