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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Fate of the Jedi (9 Hardcover Series) General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by THRAWN007, Jul 2, 2008.

  1. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000

    I'm amenable to this option.
     
  2. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    As I've now created an official sticky for Apocalypse, please take any discussion of spoilers or potential spoilers there.
     
  3. WraithLead

    WraithLead Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2001
    I haven't posted on the boards in a while, but I have been speed reading the Fate of the Jedi series. Does anyone know of a thread on here or anywhere else that gives a spoiler list of deaths you can link me to? I'm near the beginning of "Allies"...It's been years since I decided I want to know ahead of time...
     
  4. Malachi108

    Malachi108 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2009
    FOTJ round-up in the latest Insider has a bug Apocalypse spoiler, which I won't mention here, but it also shed some light on the previous novels.

    The "obscure Force-organization" of the month was intentional reference to Odyssey's journey. Abeloth's Cthulhoid appearance was also very much intentional. A sub-theme that was supposed to be less than obvious involves Luke grooming Ben into the next Grand Master of the Order because noone else seems fit - only to realize Ben has his own path and Luke himself had too many expectations of his future successor.

    There are also a lot of unused covers shows to us for the first time. We get two possible covers for Fate of the Jedi: The Crisis Erupts (written by FPO Author), a cover for Fate of the Jedi: Enter the Sith, a cover for Fate of the Jedi: Enigma and an alternate cover for Outcast.

    Pretty interesting, and the spoiler was the one I already managed to learn anyway.
     
  5. darthcaedus1138

    darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Scans?
     
  6. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I recently checked out both Abyss and Apocalypse from my local library and while reading the first one I couldn't help but realize just how much the Sith use the Force for everything. They use it to get one another's attention, to put on their clothes, to cross a river, etc. Maybe this is something the Jedi also did and I just forgot in the decade since I read these books? I do seem to recall a similarly common use of the Force in Star by Star. But anyway, it's such a contrast to the more toned-down use of the Force in the movies and in the new canon. Perhaps it's simply one of those examples of how the EU evolved into its own particular kind of sci-fi universe that, in retrospect, was quite uniquely it's own compared to the Star Wars movies. Or maybe it's just a Troy Denning thing.
     
  7. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    It’s more of a Sith thing, I reckon. Abusing the Force.
     
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  8. AvarandElzarsittininatree

    AvarandElzarsittininatree Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 13, 2021
    Use the force to dress themselves? Ok a twenty something year old lady from the galaxy far, far away meets up with a regular joe on a dating app and after a really good first date she takes him back to her place. He starts to use his hands to undress her but she suddenly stops him and says. 'I only let people who don't use their hands do that. LEAVE!!!!!!!!'.
     
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  9. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
     

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  10. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    If anyone else has that copy of Insider from a decade ago, did they mean that Abeloth’s cthulhoid appearance was a deliberate nod to Lovecraft? Is there any other behind-the-scenes info about her?

    I always found Denning’s description of her a bid oddly worded, which was notable because the same description was repeated verbatim at least once. One odd detail that always bothered me was that her arms were only 10 cm long. Not 10 inches, which would’ve made more sense. And she presumably also had hands after those 10 cm? Anyway, in the years since I first read it I’ve chosen to ignore some of the odd details and focused more on the overall picture, which is quite creepy and not as cartoonish.

    I was also trying to figure out whether there was a character in the Odyssey who corresponded to her, and Calypso and Circe are the only ones I could think of. Neither is a perfect parallel, but they do fit the demi-god status that Abeloth had.

    Oh, and @AvarandElzarsittininatree , there is a very similar scene where Vestara and her Sith lover are dressing after swimming and they really do use the Force to put on their clothes. Rereading these books after such a long time, I really had to reconfigure my mindset of how they depict Force users, more as telepathic beings with lots of powers rather than the more grounded depictions from the movies.
     
  11. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    If Master Obi-Wan caught them doing that he’d be very grumpy.
     
  12. AvarandElzarsittininatree

    AvarandElzarsittininatree Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 13, 2021
    That's called the writers just trying to be a little too creative with force powers. I personally find them being described as still regular people who have 'some' special abilities as being far more interesting.
     
  13. darthcaedus1138

    darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2007
    A decade late is better than nothing!

    :p
     
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  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I actually like the idea of the force being used casually in this way. If it makes daily tasks easier then why not?
    I really really disagree here. Jedi and Sith should be special, and very much distinct from the average.


    I think the EU was definitely moving in the direction of being it’s own setting and universe distinct from the movies-in some ways it already was. Take Dawn of the Jedi or even Legacy-beyond descendants and some ghost appearances it’s utterly unconnected from the films(Legacy) the former has even less connection to the films. Did it ever decisively break from the films? Either in theme or characters and plot motifs and the like? No-but it was becoming distinct enough that you could argue the films weren’t really relevant to appreciating it or engaging with it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
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  15. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 1, 2005
    It’s also the fact that each writer had their own vision. They were harmonized by the publishing group very well. I certainly saw the EU as an integrated whole at the time, even if it didn’t always fit together perfectly, and one that also fit with what Lucas was doing. But I realize now that each writer did have their own kind of mini-EU that had its own character.

    So I guess that’s what I’m trying to appreciate right now. Reading these old books after a couple of years of immersing myself in the prequels and Lucas’s vision, the differences are starkly clear. It’s really a whole other universe, not just in terms of continuity but especially in terms of aesthetic, the rules and mythology guiding that universe, and the literary nature of how these stories are communicated.

    This is more noticeable with some writers, such as Denning who had the strongest influence in the post-NJO EU. It was basically his baby, for all the good and bad that came with it. Other authors have had fewer SW works but more clearly stood apart, so we get Stover’s philosophical and psychological books and Luceno’s politically complex books. Then there’s authors with way more SW works under their belts, such as KJA and his very pulpy side of SW. But strangely, I haven’t really been able to characterize Denning’s SW quite yet despite the many books he wrote and his influence in LOTF and FOTJ. It’s a darker universe for sure, but what else?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
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  16. For me Obi Wan and Anakin met the Mortis Gods differently in Legends since for me TCW is another Universe different from the Multimedia Project
     
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  17. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    it reflects how the Sith view the force, as a tool. Something to be used like an iphone, something that is used for all it can.

    While the Jedi view it as something like a partner or higher power, something to be treated with respect and even reverence.


    I remember it being brought up in Allies that the Sith were using the force to keep cool and move through sand easier. So it wasn't just denning.
     
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  18. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 12, 2014
    In the context of discussions about using the Force less (from Vision of the Future):
    That always stuck with me as a compelling argument against casual use of the Force, and the grumpy Obi-Wan line just reinforced it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
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  19. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 24, 2013
    I love that argument, but other sources portray Forceuse like this:

    A Forceuser not using the Force, not practicing it often enough, gets out of touch, looses its magic so to speak and needs to relearn, to reconnect. Aka Jedi in Exile struggling to get their Force mojo back like Old Kenobi initially.

    Likewise, some authors tend to treat untrained Forceusers like untrained wizards in the Potterverse. Potential "Obscurials" with outbreaks of raw Force power. Either as infants before learning to suppress that, or even as teen/adults leashing out occasionally despite untrained talent as pilots or else.

    While I am all in favor of your quoted argument, how do these above examples work within that logic? Shouldn't less use of the Force give more instinctual guidance instead of less? Anakin Skywalker had the top instinct as a pilot without any training so he even could Podrace as a child. Yet old Kenobi meditating in the desert lost some mojo? Sure he was actively hiding and diminishing his presence, but is that enough to explain that?

    The Force wants to be used, just not beyond the degree it deems useable, and that degree varies from user to user and time to time depending on the Force's w(h)ill! There is no set limit as some get quite unleashed with it and others do not. It is that listening to when it is enough and when not that is tricky. But does that imply that Forceuser Obscurials actually are the Force pushing them towards a destiny they either deny themselves or are denied by exterior forces controling themselves that are against Forceusers?
     
  20. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Learning to open yourself to the Force is the learned skill, and its study and practice strengthens your connection to the Force in both the active and passive sense. Actively disconnecting, as Obi-Wan or Exile did, will diminish your Force power. This is notably different from what Mara and Luke are talking about, which is actively keeping a mind open to that connection, but avoiding it's casual use. Mara and Luke are talking about being still in a pool to see a reflection, rather than thrashing about and making waves but seeing nothing. Obi-Wan and the Exile got out of the pool entirely, and have to remember how to swim when they get back in.

    As to untrained active use of the Force (albeit uncontrolled) - that always felt to me inconsistent with how the Force is portrayed, so I ignore it. Not helpful to bring to a discussion, but that is how I address the universe.
     
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  21. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    It’s a minor thing, but I wonder if Del Rey’s editors may have changed any references to “inches” to “centimeters” in these books to avoid using a unit of measure that may not exist in universe?

    I mention this because of two descriptions in Abyss, one fairly minor, the other a bit more important.

    The first one’s when Luke and Ben are Beyond Shadows, in the Lake of Apparitions, and the text says the faces of the dead “appeared about a dozen centimeters below, just where the water grew too dark to see any deeper.” Later on in that page, we get another reference to the depth at which the lake becomes too dark to see: “The water was no more than calf-deep, but it was dark, and he could not see his feet.” While this could sensibly be centimeters, I think these descriptions make more sense if Denning originally wrote them in inches.

    But the real description I care about is the one for Abeloth’s true form. The text reads that “[h]er stubby arms protruded no more than ten centimeters from her shoulders, and in place of fingers, her hands had writhing tentacles. . . .” This description is repeated almost verbatim later on too. And while centimeters isn’t illogical, I once again wonder if Denning wrote this as inches, because that would make a lot more sense as a visual descriptor. Ten centimeters is barely anything at all, which results in a very weird visual, as I’m sure most readers can attest. Hell, the one official depiction of Abeloth we got, published in the Essential Guide to Warfare, mostly dispensed with this detail and didn’t have her tentacles growing until well past her elbow. This could just be artistic license, of course.

    I know I’m overthinking this. And in later books Denning just described her as “tentacle-armed,” essentially. But I always found that first reference so oddly specific. And because it was the first description, it left this cartoonish image of Abeloth in my head that even more than a decade later, revisiting these books, is hard to shake off. I do still very much wish we’d gotten a proper depiction of her before the EU was ended by the Disney era.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2023
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  22. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    That’s funny if they thought to change the unit but not the numbers
     
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  23. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    One more annoying thought. I posted some quotes about Abeloth’s transformations in the thread investigating whether one of her avatars was still on the loose by the end of FOTJ. As a fictional character, she’s clearly inspired by the sorts of creatures that can be found in the short stories of HP Lovecraft. But I recently realized she may have been specifically based on the creatures known as shoggoths.

    My main reason is the linked description of Abeloth’s physical form while in between avatars as a mass of organs and body parts that are in mid-transformation and reverting into a shapeless living puddle. That is not too different from how shoggoths are described: “… a shapeless congeries of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and un-forming as pustules of greenish light…”

    But then there’s the fact that Troy Denning said in interviews that before Abeloth’s backstory was connected to Mortis, all that the writers had planned was for her to be a servant of the Celestials. They didn’t plan to show the Celestials, but Denning had introduced them as the ancient beings behind some of the galaxy’s most ancient and awesome constructions. And in Lovecraft’s short story, “At the Mountains of Madness,” the shoggoths are also the servants of a long-gone alien race who built wonders on ancient Earth (and also created life on Earth). The servants are all that survive of the precursor races in both cases.

    Perhaps that means that originally what Callista would have found in the Maw was only a shapeless entity that then modeled itself and its mind on a twisted version of her. If there was no complex story that linked to Mortis and the family dynamics there, it’s possible that Abeloth as a human-like character was a retcon rather than the original plan. This is all just speculation, but I think there is a strong parallel between Abeloth pre-Mortis and Lovecraft’s shoggoths.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2023
  24. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 24, 2013
    Interesting is to not just look to Lovecraft, the obvious inspiration, but dig deeper to what inspired Lovecraft actually. Real world esoterics along other earlier writers are quite interesting in that regard. Theosophy, Blavatsky, Steiner, Crowley and many others of the time inspired him a lot.

    What is more scary than Denning using Lovecraft is that Lovecraft used intel from cults that actually believed such stuff to be quite real and true! The same cults that inspired the Nazis in their own esoteric quests even. Yikes!

    And that extends not just to Abeloth and her inspiration but also other elements of Denning works. The Mindwalkers/Minddrinkers, Beyond Shadows, etc. and a lot more! PS: Beyond Shadows always reminded me of Silent Hill!

    Pity Legends ended before Joe Schreiber could digg his teeth into that material and give us a truly adult version of these horrific elements. Kemp tried and got quite far with his own horror scenes in his duology but not far enough.
     
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