Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, May 29, 2018.
Could have had a series dealing with the Bothan Ar’Krai
Never change @Sinrebirth
There are hints and references throughout LOTF of a dark Luke. Jacen sees more than one vision to that effect IIRC. And that was one of his motivations for falling.
At the same time you are right that 9/10 Luke would have defeated Caedus(though Caedus could have won a hypothetical duel I believe and the chances of his victory would have increased as he grew in power).
true on the visions occuring, although I've learned to not put much stock in SW visions as being credible to actual outcomes.....especially a vision by going crazy Jacen haha
and yes, Caedus would have been harder to beat the more powerful he became but that's just an argument for why Luke should have stopped him sooner than later (part of the problem at this point)
I've come across a couple of quick succession annoyances, jw how others feel about this stuff......
1) Han and Leia's off screen escape back to the surface on Kessel, they seemed like they were pretty far down in the mines and trapped and then, suddenly they're back safe and it all happened OFF SCREEN, that's always annoying to me.....
2) the term "darkmeld" just doesn't seem to fit as a Jedi secret term to me
3) I really don't get why Tahiri is part of Jaina's little team....she def. seemed uninterested earlier in working with people, plus is her past just forgotten too I guess??? like jw, why isn't she in prison from LOTF stuff?? (especially since she murdered Pelleaon and Daala was close to him too)
If there's one thing that hasn't changed around here over the years, it's Sinre's blind and nonsensical defense of Daala as Chief of State. But now it seems to have evolved from "It kinda makes sense guys" to "She's the perfect choice." The perfect choice? Aye aye aye.
She was fighting against the GA in the war. Against. The "perfect" choice for the new leader of your government doesn't come from your defeated opponents in the most recent war. I wouldn't have hated it if she had been tenuously and suspiciously welcomed into the GA after the war, like other members of the Jedi Coalition were, but a photo of her being elected the GA's leader can be found under the dictionary definition of asinine. Also:
This is a false equivalency. Forgiving an entire species is decidedly not the same as forgiving a single person. And allowing a species to live on an isolated planet and undergo rehabilitation is not the same as electing someone the leader of your government, rehabilitation-free.
Daala still had a lot to atone for when the war ended. If they wanted to follow the Vong example, they should have exiled her to the Unknown Regions for several decades to think about what she did.
Or, on the flip side, they could have elected Nas Choka to lead the GA after the Vong War, since that's basically what they did with Daala at the end of the next war.
"It makes sense that they wanted to go in a more militant direction" is not the same as "A crazy genocidal space pirate was the perfect choice."
That’s the thing.
She was fighting against Caedus, and the Remnant. That lumps her with the Jedi Coalition, at least nominally, who won the second civil war.
They also don’t know she intended to blow up Coruscant. She was interrupted by Kyp, and the few officers that were in the know are dead. So her worst war crimes are various raids on worlds with a civilian component to the casualties - by design.
This was in an era where the New Republic forgave Kyp Durron for destroying Carida. On the face of it, she was heinous, but she’s not remotely Palpatine, Vader or Tarkin heinous. But had the she opportunity? We know she could have been.
But nobody else does.
She’s further along the ‘evil’ chain than Pellaeon the reluctant slaver was, but she’s not as far as Nas Choka, who unleashed bioweapons on the Hutts.
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Whenever the topic of Daala as CoS comes up, I'm reminded of @Trip 's brilliance here. Alas, the post-truncation issue cut out a good chunk of that brilliance, but happily, with some fortuitous Googling, I found it quoted in full here. And since it's about time it once again graced this board in full, I present, without further adieu, Trip and the Amazing Alt-Historical Analogy:
It's true that the Jedi Coalition won the war, but only after all the fighting was done --- I still think of Daala as a "defeated opponent" due to Bwu'atu having trapped and defeated the Daala and Niathal fleets during the Battle of... ... whatever the last battle of the war was called. Before the Coalition allied with the GA and forced the Moffs to, too.
Invincible says that Bwu'atu was offered it first but turned it down, right? Odd that their next choice would be someone he handily defeated in battle, rather than his #1 or any other number of people from the GA military. Like... why not Tycho? No one seemed to know that he had been flirting with the enemy and flying with Rakehell Squadron.
I think we've talked about this before, but did anyone in the GA know that she ordered the Mandos to assassinate that room full of Moffs? The reader definitely understands how hypocritical it was for her to place Tahiri on trial for killing Pelly, but do the characters?
Also, thanks for taking my post so cooly --- I expected you to, which is why I was so candid, but it's still appreciated.
Oh, you and I have played this shell-game for many years, my friend. I would try not to take something like this poorly.
It’s not ideal, but I’d like to make it at least palatable and potentially logical to someone, perhaps. Tycho has never lead anything larger than a single Destroyer from memory, and I can’t see he’d be a politician, either.
The Battle of Roche was the week long battle that saw Bwua’tu beat the combined Confederate, Hapan, Maw and Alliance-in-Exile fleets. Shedu Maad was where the war ended.
I absently wonder if Niathal wanted to trap Daala in a public role, once upon a time, but it may have been that she genuinely believed Daala was an acceptable choice... or someone who would come for her one day.
I do love Trip’s analysis.
His explanation of how Mandalorians win was beautiful.
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Meanwhile, the rest of us have got in the popcorn and beers to spectate in style.
They're both in that thread with Trip's Post of Epicness, which I just noticed was almost exactly a decade ago, though it looks like in those days Jeff wasn't nearly so opposed to the idea.
2008/2009 me was bright-eyed and apologist about a lot of bad EU things. I even praised Omen because I liked the Aing-Tii monks.
Don't take anything I said before 2010 seriously.
Edit: Actually, I kind of remember specifically why I was playing devil's advocate about Daala back in 2008 --- that was when this forum was brimming with so much negativity that I often felt like countering it just on principle. I thought the negativity was toxic at the time, but now I kind of miss it. In general it seems like most posters here are afraid to be critical.
Everything Star Wars sucks these days! Ok, not everything, but I still miss the old EU, before the sequel days. I could go on, but meh, I've complained enough.
Ah, 2009, those were the good old days (at least by comparison to now). Even with how bad FotJ was (and LotF before that), we could still be assured that certain things were off-limit to Del Rey. Not that that was much comfort, but still. Now no bad idea is off-limits, but anyways, back to FotJ.
As for how ridiculous an idea that Daala as Chief of State is, if I remember right, after the abrupt ending of Invincible, I think the idea was thrown around that as an "outsider" (not quite GA, Confederation or Imperial) she was an acceptable compromise to everyone as leader of the reunited GA. Then this book shows that the Confederation has not yet rejoined the GA, its still a separate entity, so that idea is out the airlock.
I think Jedi accountability is important, but at the same time sure doesn't seem like anybody else is being held accountable for what happened during the last war. Not that we see the Unification Summit negotiations, but still, it doesn't seem to be a sticking point, all the bad things every side did. Sure, I can see Tahiri in prison, but most of GAG should be there too, but we never hear about them again. Ironically Daala is more upset about Pellaeon's death than the actual Imperial faction (given her character history with Pellaeon its understandable, but shows how skewed her priorities are compared to her role as GA ruler).
I don't have the energy to keep this debate going forever. Back then I kept posting as there was a slight chance of a better post-TUF book still being written (Mercy Kill for instance) but now that the old EU has ended, that's gone. (And the new EU is still developing.) I know its hard to not finish a story, but FotJ wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. And I still remember them gouging us by making every book a hardcover (compared to LotF only having the beginning, middle and end as hardcovers).
I know this is in the name of fun action sequence, but
1) could an awesome team of Jaina, Winter, Jag, Mirax, and Tahiri screw up an operation worse than they did against a lone crazy Jedi
2) also another OP performance by the antagonist just to make it "more interesting", I mean it was Seff vs. Tahiri/Jag and he owned them EASILY (and they are no scrubs)
3) how in the world do they expect to get by with this, even if it's not figured out it's them personally, that it's a Jedi operation is obvious!! so who gets the punishment, that's right, the Jedi, unless the GFFA are galactically stupid...oh wait....nvm they might just be, let me read more......
so is Ben a sociopath himself? it's mentioned he's using a pickaxe and imagines what he's using it on being somebody's face.....that's way over the top harsh to me....I don't think I've ever wished something like that......
Oh I don't know if I remember if I saw your Invincible review, where's the link to that thread again?
Also, what did you think of Millennium Falcon by Luceno? Not his best, but better than most of LOTF and FOTJ, I thought.
I agree that Daala made some good points, even if she's one of the worst people to make such a good argument. I think the Jedi were too cozy with the GA, and should be more of a decentralized, nonpartisan force.
Luke shouldn't have let Ben play Tomb Raider
I don't really know how to do links on here but this is the name of the thread....
LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible...my review is on page 28
MF was okay, it had good moments but it had some issues closer to the end.....and negatives always stick in my mind clearer so...
1) I know it's SW and this happens a lot, but the sheer coincidence of the same time that Han/Leia/Allana start an adventure that some other person awakes out of a coma to begin the same adventure is out there
2) some of the background stories on the Falcon were a little boring
3) the concept of the Falcon having some sort of self-awareness is very out there
4) the ending of the treasure hunt is just abrupt and pathetically low stakes and kills the book
5) just a small nitpick too, the book makes a horrible mistake over a timeline incident, which seems just to be an writing mistake not picked up in editing, but that stuff always irritates me
1 book down....Outcast is through.....time for the review.....I'll do this by storylines I think
Opening - Coruscant - Everybody together
1) first off, small nitpick, but the Dramatis Personae in this book is weird, it's like it's written for only the first couple of chapters so everyone else can be revealed later....which isn't a bad idea just different from normal SW ones
2) gosh it makes no sense Daala is COS
3) I feel for the Horns, although I hate how they're now just mopey sad parents who stand on the sidelines, that's not the Horns I know (and think how Luke, Leia, Han react when they're children have issues, it's not like this)
4) I get that Valin's illness will probably be detailed as the series progresses, I just hope the answer makes sense bc I'm worried it's gonna be widespread from something and then that means they ruin this next generation of Jedi just like the Myrkr mission ruined Jaina's group....yay to Jedi groups being messed up
5) as I said earlier, I actually agree with Daala's points even if I don't trust her motivations, but I think some of the punishments of the entire order are over the top and the fact that everyone in the GFFA seems on board with them is weird....not a fan of GFFA = Empire, that just ruins the NR totally...
6) not a fan that immediately Jedi decide to disobey the orders (Jaina, Leia) and that they think somehow this doesn't hurt the overall Order bc it's only them doing it, like the GFFA won't punish the entire Order for their actions
7) the observers concept is entirely over the top....I get that the GFFA wants tabs but one observer per Jedi...how many Jedi are there now? how many observers would be needed? who is paying for all these observers? what kind of rights violation is that? I mean even criminals are either in prison or on house arrest with trackers, and excons just have to check in routinely......
Luke/Ben story - Dorin
1) I actually really enjoyed this story til a certain part......
2) cool to see another Force group although full range of Force beliefs could have been explored more
3) it was low key but I think that worked well for that story, information gathering storylines can be good to me especially as the slow down offset against the action story from a different storyline
4) the issue was the confrontation b/t Luke and the Higher One.....way to go and make what was another credible Force group and turn them into the "bad guys"....they just had to make him a crazy evil guy (and I say evil instead of paranoid bc of his willingness to kill Luke/Ben).....this was really unneeded and unfair and could have been done differently to keep the Baron Do from looking like idiots
EDIT: 5) just thinking a lil more on this storyline, but really what did Luke/Ben learn about Jacen here, so they learned he learned about a Force technique but to what end? like what does this technique have anything to do with what made him go bad? that's never discussed in the book at all....this search is about Jacen's mindset not what Force abilities he learned....
Han/Leia - Kessel
1) on the surface, this story wasn't bad, but it was a little too low key at times considering the Luke/Ben story was also low key....1 is okay, 2 is a little too much
2) a lot of this story is fine on the surface, but.....it falls apart when you think about it, I think....that's a lot of impressive stuff that was just hidden in Kessel's depths for a long time that nobody ever found even though they were mining in the crust of that planet.....
3) as I said earlier, I didn't like Han and Leia's off screen escape, that's always uncool
4) hopefully, the Allana hearing the voice will be explored further, and isn't just tied to the Kessel area otherwise that was just nothing.....
5) jw, are the Celestials ever gonna be more than just plot devices to introduce old technology?
Jaina - Coruscant
1) I really want to like Jaina, but man, she never gets a good story, or at least a smart one...
2) I know she is supposed to be the eyes of the Jedi living in the conditions on Coruscant, but she just does things to make her own situation worse (and seems to think she can do w/e she wants, screw the Masters)
3) her team is amazing based off the collective accomplishments, yet they perform like a group of wannabes.....just wonderful.....
4) her expectation that not telling the Masters will work is asinine, they are Masters for a reason, how were they not gonna find out when it's happening under their nose and right at the Temple
5) her expectation that somehow this won't fall back on the Order is idiotic, bc who else was it gonna fall back on
6) this is not about her, but the fact that a few days after their botched mission, the GFFA actually does pull back the observers just proves how stupid the GFFA (or writing) is also bc like I said, that mission was obviously an unsanctioned Jedi mission to attempt to get a Jedi out of the hands of the GFFA, no way a court case decides in the Jedi's favor after that......
7) still wondering too, how is Tahiri not in prison?
what's the worst part of this book though is this.....it's an enjoyable read, that's always annoying when there are this many issues but the book is still enjoyable bc it really shouldn't be and just makes you want to keep reading, at least when it's absolutely horrible, you just stop with no regrets.....
EDIT: if anybody wants me to go in greater detail on anything in Outcast, feel free to ask, there is a lot more to discuss on specifics, but just wasn't gonna write it all, trying to keep it as brief as possible....
Well the Celestials were in Clone Wars for three episodes, so yes. They are definitely about.
The book is good largely on the strength of Allston’s writing I find.
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Oh, the magical space wizards don’t like being accountable to people. What a surprise. Honestly, the Jedi need to recuse themselves from temporal manners or start to actually being responsible to someone.
Or they could just install themselves as a government and rule directly. They did that in the last 400 years of the new Sith wars and palpatine thinks that's something should do(or can do) but won't.
Well, the Jedi attempted to take direct rule in RotS.
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You just paste the url, but joe that I know the page number I will find it.
Also, the MF has always been alive since ANH days, I’m pretty sure.
And, just wondering, have you seen Solo yet?
On Tahiri.... there will come something of her late LOTF actions.
no I haven't seen Solo, I'm pretty much done with new Lucasfilm SW after TLJ at least giving them my real money at the box office, maybe 2.00 in RedBox later I'll do....