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Lit Fate of the Jedi issues...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, May 29, 2018.

  1. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    yes, I'd be quite okay with the resistance you pointed out, I do actually believe the Jedi are good, but they do need to be accountable and have some semblance of following laws/not doing w/e they want

    Oh, the reporter is slime in the way he does it, good depiction of the way real reporters do w/e it takes to get a story at the expense of people and also to spin said story for ratings....I do wonder how he seems to always be there though, wonder if we'll get an explanation at some point more than he was just really good at following them around considering they try to give him the slip constantly
     
  2. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I've finished Omen, review time.....

    was this book anything but filler??????

    Coruscant story went absolutely nowhere (and this is what I've heard as biggest complaint)
    1) 2 more Jedi went crazy, no one comes any closer to figuring out why
    2) Jaina has a rendezvous "mission" with Jag....oh yay
    3) we get a family outing to the zoo....what fun
    4) it ends with Tahiri FINALLY being arrested for Pellaeon's murder? ummm, a little late aren't we?????

    Sith story.........I know it's setup, but what did it tell us in this book? anything?
    1) so a Sith group was isolated on a planet and no one knew about them?
    2) so this story is all taking place 2 years ago mostly?
    3) so this story has no interaction with the present story? and when it finally does at the end, you realize the back story given was really unneeded to get to this point
    4) more of a general question, but this Sith group? they're not the ones Alema visited in LOTF right? so they're 2 sith groups totally unnoticed by the galaxy/Jedi?
    5) also, I assume the cover of the book is Vestara, but to what degree did she earn the cover? just cool visual??? and I know she's the POV character, but she's a 14 yr old Sith apprentice in an unimportant story arc at this point
    6) jw also, how did Ship find this group? I mean it'd been chilling on Ziost forever, it never left for any other Sith/Dark Jedi, it was found by Ben, then it was used by Lumiya/Alema, then it was returning to Ziost again??? now suddenly it's just flying the galaxy to find a new Sith group??????

    Ben/Luke story.......great premise, horrible execution
    1) once again, I must point out, the concept of meeting a different Force sect is cool, the info we learn about said Force sect is.......little and unfulfilling
    2) do we have any deeper understanding of the Aing-Tii after this story?
    3) I'm sure it was meant to show Luke can't solve everything, but did they really having Luke unable to fulfill his attempt to help them solve their problem and just basically tell them, "too bad, figure it out yourselves" just felt like a crap move to me
    4) oh look, we're off to the Maw next, how shocking? didn't see that coming...NOT...of course the Maw possibly messed up all the children who stayed there during the Vong war....might even explain their going crazy...wish someone, a Jedi maybe, could have figured that out already.....
    5) also once again, what really did we learn about Jacen again? that he already was looking for order in the galaxy at this point? that that goal is a path to the dark side even if you don't realize it? (oh really??? wow never would have thought) and this was early in this journey so he's already well on his way to LOTF Jacen at that point? I'm not sure that makes good sense the NJO Jacen would feel that way that quickly into his journey....they better not have the Mind Drinkers make Jacen go crazy as an excuse for why he did what he did!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  3. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I think you’ll be quietly pleased.

    And, at the time, we were being handed free Lost Tribe e-books so their story unwinded as we read FotJ.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Hopefully I will like the answers at the point in time they are given, but that really doesn't change the issues with this book does it? It's still filler since I just read a whole book and it barely advanced the storyline at all and some of the stuff requires logic gaps
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  5. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    almost 100 pages into Abyss.....

    1) who didn't see that Seff was faking in an attempt to get free? I know Cighal sure didn't recognize it at all (way to go Jedi Master), Han and Leia seemed weary but optimistic....I saw it from the start myself.....silly Jedi....
    2) more Jedi go crazy, but yay, Cilghal and Tekli have finally found the connection, too bad I figure it out last book, wait no, I figured it out in book one, Outcast....
    3) Jaina Solo is an insufferable idiot.....and this is from someone who has always liked her, but this series just makes her continue to do stupid crap (fully knowing the consequences) then be upset at said consequences....all that seems to matter to her is she's not free to do w/e she wants whenever she wants and when people get in her way, screw them....I mean she might make a perfect Sith at this point...maybe they should have let her go bad instead of Jacen
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I always felt that Jaina would have made a better Sith for LOTF than Jacen.
     
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  7. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    Its troubling when the second book (out of nine) already seems like filler, doesn't it? I wish I could reassure you that things get better, but, well, they don't. Although at this early stage its just boring rather than really stupid, as so far there's not much happening, relatively speaking (compared to LotF's plot-contrived events).

    You've already got most of the Lost Tribe's backstory. The e-books are better written but are just more like sidestories. Also helps that some of those focus on Sith who aren't so generic mwa-ha-ha evil but are a bit more grey (they don't play a larger role in history but helps keep each ebook from being too depressing). So basically a Sith ship crashed in the middle of nowhere and until the magic Sith Meditation Sphere went looking for more "worthy" users (having rejected Krayt's faction), they were stranded on one planet. And now Luke's NJO has got to fight them, yay (not).

    Kind of silly that it looks like they're already retconning Jacen's motives for LotF, isn't it? And its not like with Vergere where she was mostly mysterious and cryptic to the end, we got plenty of Jacen POV chapters, but well, you'll see.

    I forget what Jaina was up to during early Abyss, but it wasn't memorable or good, I'd guess. And yeah, more crazy Jedi hijinks, that got boring three books ago already. I wish the Jedi could use the system to fight Daala, who is still pretty blatantly evil, but well, they're distracted dealing with the "mysterious" craziness. Also doesn't help that the GA is still pretty vague and what we see of the regular people (what little glimpses due to all the Jedi-centric POVs), its not exactly encouraging. Like Tahiri's arrest. I don't object to her being in jail after LotF, but when she's the only one on trial after the whole LotF mess, well, it kind of seems more like a grudge on Daala's part rather than justice.

    The Luke plots so far have been the least worst part of LotF, but that just makes all the other plots (particularly everything on Coruscant) look more stupid unfortunately.
     
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  8. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    also, I know I keep circling back to this concept, but the book won't leave it alone....why is Kenth Hammer portrayed as so wrong?? he shows up immediately after the Bothan and Romoan Jedi go crazy and the Solos/Jag have the confrontation with the GSA over the incident, but.....

    1) whether you like it or not, the GSA did have a warrant and the Solos bucked up to them
    2) the Solos then lied to the GSA about adhering to the warrant
    3) it was all caught on holocam as usual

    of course Hammer is upset about this!! as he says, it just hurts the Order so much in a time it doesn't need it, and they just disregarded the law (Hammer even points out how they can fight it in court and hopefully win since the warrant should never have been issued since the incident happened totally on Temple grounds)

    and it's not that I don't feel for Han/Leia/Cighal's view, it's that you can't just disregard the law bc you don't like it, UNLESS you're ready for open rebellion, does it feel like rebellion/war is justified at this point? it surely doesn't to me.....
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  9. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    first I want to say, thanks for your input, and I thank everybody for their input, but I love how you actually seem to read and respond in detail to my posts...makes me taking the time to write this out (while cathartic to the soul) also seem worthwhile...also I'm gonna respond to your points bc I really like them and they deserve more than just a like click

    Totally agree, boring is the key word here even if it's not plot-contrived event after event like LOTF was a lot of the times...but filler it def. seems like and I just think there had to be a better story to write than this

    well then, if only sidestories, that's not all that important it seems, so wouldn't help much fix the problem (looking at a diff. poster who tried to use that as an explanation for why it wasn't bad)....and also totally agree on the plot contrivedness of the Sith ship and how I'm soooo interested in a bunch of hereto unknown Sith army showing up outta nowhere to fight Luke's NJO which can't defend itself from anything, guess Luke and Ben will have to defeat them all

    totally agree, I hate retcons, and like you said, we have Jacen's POV so we know why he did what he did....also, if they do end up doing this and Jacen caused this insanity in others, I do not see at all how that would help his end goal of galaxy stabilization...I'm assuming this would be a side effect he didn't realize

    Yes rehash story with different name of Jedi going crazy is way overdone in one series at this point, played itself out in first book, and I'd absolutely love to see the Jedi use the system to fight Daala, it could be a very interesting change of pace for a SW book series, also as I thought in the last series, the whole GA is nothing but horrible people now, how does that keep us invested in the galaxy at all? who are the Jedi even there to protect anymore? and I have no issue with Tahiri being arrested, I just think it's very weird that she wasn't already in jail at the beginning of this series, for them to just now arrest her after letting her just chill on Coruscant for a while is just weird/stupid

    Agreed on the Luke plots, best parts so far and really highlight stupidity of other stuff
     
  10. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    Ah, Kenth. On the one hand, I can agree with him trying to work with the GA. On the other hand, he keeps acting like Daala is trustworthy, when, well, she's not. Its Daala after all, so giving her the benefit of the doubt seems naive at best. Not to mention her clear animosity towards the Jedi, which actually comes off as a bit forced. If it was a grudge against Kyp, that's one thing, but that would mean directly referencing her Imp warlord past, which the series just ignores. Tahiri killing Pellaeon is another thing, but that's almost too blatant.

    If only there was an experienced politician, like a former Chief of State, who could help. Well, but then Leia's put up with enough politics and she's enjoying being a grandmother.
     
  11. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I'm not sure Kenth believes she is trustworthy. It's just what is the other option at the time being? Especially as we both put, the books are not taking the angle to fight this through the system....so two options

    1) obey the law as Kenth seems to want to do or
    2) rebel against the law but how do you do that w/o going to full scale war Jedi vs. GA??? and is that justified at this point in time? has the GA really done anything to that degree??

    I also agree that Leia Organo Solo should be able to play both sides aka mediate, but the Leia we're given is already all in on the "rebel" side so.....

    just thinking about what the Jedi should/could do....wouldn't the smart play be just leave the Coruscant Temple and go off-world and isolate themselves back at Yavin IV or Ossus or someplace else??
     
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  12. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2010

    Yeah I think Kenth is doing the right thing.

    what gets me is how NO ONE LIKE THE JEDI, they seem to have 0 public support. Shirley people should be opposed to Daala (The Empires back!), it just bugs me that the jedi seem to have no support.

    Ok wow.

    When I first read the books I didn't like how they portrayed him. Now that I work in TV news with reporters I really find it bad. Not saying reporters aren't biased (they are) but they are decent people who have ethics and laws to follow.

    It's also really weird he is doing leg work if he hosts a show, since that would make him somethign very different from a reporter. He should be organising interviews and the like.

    Interesting observation



    Yep this book tries really hard to make Kenth seem 'wrong' when he is the smartest one there. If they listened to him things might have been resolved by now.

    By refusing the obey the law all they are doing is proving Daala right. If they keep acting like they are above the law then all she has to do is point to that and say 'see I am right'
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  13. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Totally agree. It makes no sense at all unless the public is just totally stupid!!!

    Sorry, I shouldn't have included all news media like all are scum. I'm sure there are a lot of honest media in the world, but there are some, especially in political driven media or paparazzi that spin stuff constantly, that he reminded me of.

    Exactly
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  14. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2010
    Yeah its really weird, there should be opposition to Daala the jedi should be working with (remember the last time the jedi were persecuted? with Palpatine) instead there is no one.

    So he is like three different jobs rolled into one. He acts like a paparazzi (who stalk famous people and take pics, they are pretty scummy), but he has a job as a real reporter (which means he should most of his day making calls, checking facts and recording lines) and then he gets to host a show (so he should be in a studio)

    So i think the writers just don't know how the media works.


    Yeah Jaina actually has a good plan in this book and it's really smart (I think she got the smart ball) but then.......the jedi go worse
     
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  15. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    good points on the media angle

    On Jaina, if that's true great, I don't think I've read that part yet, all I've read is how she's mad about the GSA issuing the warrant, and at the media guy for illegally using the droid, and then begging Jag for the secret about the Mandos but then being mad at him for not wanting her to tell others even though it'd ruin his standing with the GA as head of Imperial Remnant....
     
  16. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    having read a little further, just 2 quick points....

    1) I hate the 2 young Jedi quitting bc "Kenth is wrong" implications this book keep making
    2) I sorta hate how competent the media guy is at his job (whether always being there or being able to slip cam droids right in under the Jedi's/Jag's noses)...it just makes them look stupid and weak even more.....and it's super convenient for the plot of the Jedi looking bad, they don't catch ANY breaks at all even when they think they do (cam in Jag's limo that caught Jag telling Jaina the secret about Mandos, bc they even keep the droid to keep the footage from getting out yet even then the media guy got the footage)

    also in regards to the above post, a lot of what I wrote Jaina did doesn't sound wrong in and of itself, it's just the total self-righteous bossy attitude with which she interacts with others about it, I mean she just doesn't seem to have any people skills at all.....actually, after thinking about this more, it's more like she's still her NJO teenage self, like she never actually matured at all out of teenage adolescence, did the writers forget she's now in her 30s??? I mean Han can be Han at times, but he's still an adult when he needs to be too, it's like Jaina is "Han" at ALL times
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  17. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Did we ever get the OOU reason for why they chose Daala to be COS?
    Is there an interview?

    The curse of time jumps. No real realistic aging.
    The characters just remain static.
     
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  18. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    I think the Lost Tribe were a horrible idea to include... especially in a book series that didn't know which threat to focus on, with Daala, someone you'll meet soon, and some event that happens.

    The worldbuilding that JJM did for them is good. But overall, the idea is just too terrible.
     
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  19. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2010

    Yeah 'Kenth is wrong' might as well be the seres sub title.

    I hate it. I also hate Han, Leia and Luke in this book/series. They are all so arrogant and nepotistic.

    "A jedi order without luke won't last long" "I must prepare Ben to be the Grand master after me"


    For a little while I though Denning was setting these people up to be proved wrong and to be shown that they are being small minded. but then Vortex happened

    I would have kept the Tribe and dropped the other someone.

    The Tribe could have been an interesting look at the Sith and how they rule their people ( and how they aren't all entirely evil)

    but nope never mind
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jaina acting like a teenager was another problem-the writers did apparently forget she was in her thirties in FOTJ.
     
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  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Sam - your question about why Tahiri gets a trial and nobody else does is perfect answered in Backlash, and touched upon later on.

    Politically though, the Jedi has a lot more ground to recover than Daala, who has not done anything against the Republic in public for over two decades. The Jedi on the other hand had Jacen fall and mad Jedi within the last two years. The public’s memory will focus on what’s more recent, thus all manner of politician of shaky background can ascend...

    In Mercy Kill, which is after FotJ, we discover even more about anyone who supported Jacen and so forth, actually.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    See I don't get Han and Leia at all in this series either. When did Leia become the let's buck the government entirely person? She was COS before, she of all people should know how to work within the law/public perception to help the Jedi. But I know this book isn't interested in that. So this attitude of hers makes me want to go tell her to go sit at the kids table. Like jw, why is she in the Master's Council anyway spouting off all the time? I get her accomplishments in the past, but either acknowledge them and make her a Master or tell her thank you but we're Masters, we'll handle it.

    That's another theme I've come across, that Luke is the only qualified person to be GM and the Order will fail without him. If that is true, Luke Skywalker has absolutely FAILED as a leader. Let me repeat it, if that is true, Luke HAS FAILED AS A LEADER. And that's just depressing beyond measure. I just read where Han basically thought the same thing, and it just floored me. The death of SW in a nutshell to me.

    Oh yay, looking forward to Vortex then......:rolleyes::(
     
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  23. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    I mean no offense, but honestly, you shouldn't be surprised by this by now. Ever since DNT, they've rarely had the Jedi accomplish anything without Luke involved. When they kicked him (and Ben) off-planet, that was almost a sign saying "stop all plot progress". Its problems like this why there are very few worthwhile post-TUF books.

    I can't remember exactly what happened on Coruscant, so I can't comment on that too much (and so my comments might be inaccurate, so just apologizing for that ahead of time). There is this odd disconnect with how most of them don't bother trying to work with the system, but yet they still treat Daala fairly, which is odd, even with how they're ignoring her past. Doesn't help that she (and her aide) seems to have near absolute power, where's the military, the Senate, etc.? I don't think Omas and Borsk ruled quite this easily. And yet its not like none of them have experience working around things, several of them are Rebellion veterans, yet we don't see any of their experience. I think Kenth has a point, but well, the narrative is kind of contradictory on a lot of things.

    It'd be nice if the Jedi could just leave the planet, but that would delay the problem (of figuring out a way to work with the galactic government) and inconveniently there's all the crazy Jedi. They can barely keep them locked up now, moving them would be inviting disaster. It sure would be nice if even a few Jedi could go fly off-planet and join Luke to help his investigation, but that might speed things up too much. Still got six books to go.
     
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  24. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    it's not that I'm still surprised, it's that every time they bring the theme back up it just reignites my anger....when I ask questions like why or when, I'm not really shocked or looking for the time in the past when/why something happened/changed, I'm just wondering why the authors EVER thought this was the way to go?? I know it's how they've been since TDN, but still, it's also been stupid since then....we all see the issues so the fact they didn't/or didn't care just angers me

    and I agree on the non-worthwhile books, as I said, I'm just a glutton for punishment I guess, bc I've read all these series bc I had nothing else left to read about the Big 3 and I guess I wanted the shared knowledge of everybody else's disgust

    very good point on lack of Senate involvement, sounds likes the GA didn't do anything after Jacen's takeover, but instill a different leader in the takeover spot...weird

    I actually think the moving off-planet would help the crazy Jedi thing, if you're at a secluded place, when one goes crazy you can stop them w/o much collateral damage hopefully, as well as leave them with no true escape avenue except wilderness, and def. w/o the GSA on your doorstep....also I know maybe this isn't in the story itself, but just using my brain, if you can contain them in a cell with ysalmiri at the Temple, why can't you build some type of transport along the same lines....also I've never understood after Dooku's containment of Obi-Wan in AOTC and also things from TCW, we have ample proof of ways to hold Jedi which I'd think should have moving varieties along the same lines, but nothing ever has been shown in the EU (and I know some books were written before AOTC/TCW but still)
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
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  25. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    it's not that I don't agree with this to some degree, it's just that that's such a small scale view of the whole thing....be all in with Daala bc her past is 2 decades old even if it is horrible and the Jedi's most recent history is relatively bad.....that's sorta brainless on the part of the galaxy

    there's a whole slew of viewpoints

    1) be all in for Daala bc you're an Imp
    2) be all in for Daala bc you hate the Jedi
    3) be all in for the Jedi bc you think they are the heroes
    4) be all in for the Jedi bc you think they did stop Jacen in the end
    5) be wary of Daala but also be wary of the Jedi bc of above reasons
    6) be wary of Daala bc she's amassing power sort of like Jacen
    7) be wary of the Jedi bc of the problems but also still believe in democracy
    8) be wary of the Jedi but also remember the past so give them some benefit of the doubt
    9) hate the Jedi for the fact they do act better than themselves, but be totally against Daala bc of her past
    etc, etc, etc

    and I know they can't explore all of these, but it just shows there are a lot to this issue than just what you stated

    reality is a couple would have made it much better

    1) the Jedi's POV
    2) Daala's POV
    3) a fair public POV (could be one news media outlet or citizen protests, doesn't require actualy POV chapters)
    4) a fearful public POV for the Jedi (same as above)
    5) a fearful public POV against the Jedi (same as above)
     
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