Feedback: the good, the bad, and the ugly

Would it make any sense to encourage authors to put something in their story headers about what kind of feedback they want and how they want to receive it?

ophelia your suggestions make entirely too much sense.

 

good idea Ophelia, I'll give it a try.

sg

 

Those are some interesting ideas, Ophelia. They do make a lot of sense.

 

Sometimes when you're readers disagree with you about one point or another it's best just to explain to them why you thought that would be best, or why you thought the character would act that way.

case in point. In one of my stories, post NJO, i bring Ganner Rhysode back to life. Actually what i do is bring about circumstantial evidence to say he never died in Tratior. But i got a little bit of heat for that, for bringing back Ganner and not Anakin. So i took about 25 mintues and made a list of reasons on why i brought Ganner back instead of Anakin. After listening to my reasoning behind it, some of my readers understood how it was best for the story. I'm sure they still want Anakin back, but they understood my story was the wrong one for it.

 

I agree with what everyone's been saying. I live for feedback. Knowing people read and enjoy my stories is wonderful, and I appreciate getting "just" a "good job" or a "nice". Reviews that are longer/more detailed make my day, since they help me to understand just what people like about my writing.

However, sometimes I really want to know if I have lurkers or not. I mean, if they're not going to leave a review, fine, but I'd appreciate it if they would even drop into the fic thread and say something like "hi", just so I would know who's reading my fic or how wide an exposure it's getting. That's kinda my pet peeve- I'd like to know who/how many people are lurking on my stories. But isn't that the pet peeve of all authors?

And a question-- how would you recommend asking for constructive criticism in the midst of a long fic? I've got a longer fic going at the moment, and everyone seems to like it, but I still want to improve it. I like the idea of the block at the beginning of the fic explaining about constructive criticism, but what should I do if I'm in the middle of a fic? Any suggestions there?

-Saber

 

well you can always go back and edit and add to the first post, that's what I did. Then if you want to just bring it to the readers attention add a post at the end pointing out the addition about constructive crit at the beginning of the thread.

sg

 

Going back and reviewing all of the responses, I noticed something interesting. It seems there are a number of people who don't want constructive criticism. For the life of me, I can't understand why. Is it about maintaining an air of perfection--an ego thing--or are there just some people who can't handle criticism, however well-meaning it might be?

Just to clarify; I'm not attacking anyone with this, I'm just genuinely curious. Surely every author wants to improve?

 

Where did you get the idea people don't want constructive criticism? I don't recall seeing a single post to that effect.


Dana

 

A review from someone I don't know, whose writings I am unfamiliar with, and who just popped in to offer their critcism means nothing to me.

I have asked for beta help and for story reviews before, but I ask that of people I have some knowledge about. I have seen their writing, or have had some contact with them. Nor do I mind when my regular readers PM me or AIM or even in the story thread point out things that could be improved or when I have made mistakes or I messed up somewhere in the facts.

In some ways, it is a respect thing, I might not agree with them, I might even think they are wrong and am willing to argue it with them, but at least I can see where they are coming from.

You don't get that from someone who pops in out of the blue.

 

Surely every author wants to improve?


Not necessarily. I'd wager most everyone wants to be able to spin a good yarn to entertain others and thereby satisfy themselves, but it doesn't absolutely follow that every fanfic writer strives to write the greatest story ever. To some, such fixation would ruin the fun of writing fanfiction.


It needs to be remembered that we're all amateurs writing for fun. Similarly, fanfic readers aren't all blessed with advanced degrees in writing and an inherent knowledge of what is and isn't correct.


Besides, who is to say that the critic is always correct in his/her assessment? There are just too many examples of people in all sorts of endeavours who improved themselves and succeeded precisely because they didn't listen to the criticism of others.

 

A "Manners" course in feedback sounds interesting.

 

Yes, exactly, a manners course. That's what I was talking about.


Dana

 

It seems there are a number of people who don't want constructive criticism. For the life of me, I can't understand why. Is it about maintaining an air of perfection--an ego thing--or are there just some people who can't handle criticism, however well-meaning it might be?

Kind of going along with what Herman Snerd said, I want to write a good story, and for that reason, I have a beta who looks over my posts for any glaring errors. But this is a HOBBY for me...although I love writing, I have absolutely no intention of trying to become a published writer. I'm just not that passionate about writing, I suppose. SW itself is more what I'm passionate about.

And, to also go along with what red_rose_knight has said, if I don't know you, why would I pay any heed to unsolicited criticism? If one of my regular readers has a comment or suggestion, that's a different story.

 

Ok, there's misunderstanding afoot.


Dana, you're right in saying that no one posted something to the effect of "constructive criticism?! No thanks!" Several of the posts seem hesitant about it though, and I guess I can understand that. Of course, not everybody's pursuing a professional writing career; although every author forms some attachment to their story, especially if they post it in increments, over a long period of time, with a loyal reader base. A lot of the authors doing that may have a more casual disposition to the whole deal, but that is still a serious undertaking that requires a serious commitment.

I just have a personal philosophy that nothing's perfect, especially something as complex or multi-faceted as a story. I want to help authors, not read their work, do this: , and point them to the exit. It just so happens that my idea of helping goes beyond "Great job!" It's more involved, and sometimes harsher. If that help isn't asked for, I won't give it. I just have a problem understanding why any writer, no matter how casual or maniac--oops--um...serious about it they may be wouldn't want that type of assistance.

This leads me to debate Herman. I have a hard time believing that someone is happy to wallow in mediocrity. It just seems odd. It isn't in human nature to approach a situation with the attitude "well, I suck, but...*shrugs* what the hell." What about reaching for that shiny brass ring? King of the Hill, Top 'o' the heap etc. etc. Everyone wants to improve, everyone wants to become better. Humans are creatures that are constantly progressive, always in flux, seeking to better themselves.

This notion could & does apply to writing/writers, and I'm not only speaking about the ones that go to sleep with visions of a Pulitzer dancing in their heads. If someone were to come along and say "hey, that was a good story, but there were some things about it that I think might help you to make it better," I would argue that 10 out of 10 times, the author would be willing to sit down and listen to what that person's thoughts were.

of course the author in question won't always agree. It's a matter of opinion, after all. The point of critiquing isn't to bombard a storyteller with pompous know-it-all-isms, it's to help them be a better storyteller. And even if an author doesn't agree with someone's review (which is more the rule than the exception), it allows them to more seriously consider their craftsmenship, gain a deeper understanding of the author/audience relationship, and get a chance to step back and take a look at their work through a pair of eyes that aren't their own--gain a fresh perspective--even if they disagree with it.

Lastly, I have to comment on r_r_k's post. If I offered you an informed, polite, deep, and considerate critique...you'd just toss it away because you don't know me? That doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, just because I've never played the Star Wars drinking game with you doesn't mean that I'll be clueless about your writing. Conversely, what if I was your best friend and offered you terrible advice like "Make Luke sprout tentacles...that can turn into lightsabers!"? . Certainly, you could choose to accept reviews from whomever you want to, but having such a prejudicial regard for comments that aren't from those in your inner circle seems...a bit counter-intuitive.

 

Perhaps if we had some sort of . . . evidence of your qualification to offer an exemplary critique, like, say, a fanfiction of your very own, maybe people would be more inclined to take you up on your offer.

As is stands, all we have at this point is your word, and I'm afraid that for some people . . . that just isn't good enough.


Dana

 

I agree with Dana here. Also, one does not need a long winded waffleing comentary to give 'constructive critism', and I for one ALSO resent the tone this discussion is taking. The idea that fan fic authors are a 'lessor' class of author just because their style might not be that of a classical 18th century tome.

To quote Stephen King

"It is the tale, not he who tells it"

 

I knew that habitually skulking around a wretched hive of scum and villainy would come back to bite me .

I have several SW stories that I'd like to write, and will be writing sometime in the far future, but this summer is my Original Work Summer. I put off and put off my own stuff all year, partially due to school, family, and friend stuff. If I suddenly slam on the brakes for that stuff, it'll utterly wonkify my authoritative mojo.

Oh well. I guess--if you're so inclined--you could steadfastly ignore any and/or all of my opinions. I'll still be giving them, of course, as I'm a nuisance like that...but God Bless America for the fact that you can pay them no mind if ya feel like it.

Now, whether that'll be your gain or your loss, is up to the will of the Force. [face_alien_1]

Edit: Breezy: I agree. I was arguing that fanfic is no less a creative/artistic exercise than sitting down and writing the next *cough* classic (still uses his copy of Steppenwolf as a coaster). Also, I was simply re-stating & maintaining my opinions, in that above long-winded post. It is quite long-winded, isn't it? 1000 pardons to go along with the 1000+ words, but I do have my own custom-made soapbox, and it'd be a shame to see my Xmas present from Grams go to waste .

Please do not remove a moderator edit. Thank you!

 

At the request of several people, I've unlocked this thread.

But I'm relocking it at the sign of any more bickering. If we can't keep things civil in here, it will not continue.


Dana

 

Bickering? I see no bickering. Only people with differing opinions. This is being handled quite civilly on most parts.

As for the subject of feedback:

Constructive Criticism

Constructive criticism is wonderful and extremely helpful at the right times. Oftentimes, however, the person critiquing doesn't know how critique properly. (I agree with whomever suggested a manners course on concrit...it should proove very helpful to newbies and people who aren't sure how to leave criticism without hurting feelings. Perhaps a separate thread? I'd be glad to help compile it.)

One thing that always helps is finding at least one part of the story that you like, no matter how small. It's important that the author knows that something good has come from them. That little bit of hope might give them the will to improve the parts of their creation that aren't so hot.

For Mr. Black and Herman

Mr. Black, I'd like to tell you that, as someone who has been at the JC for almost four years now, I have encountered many people that don't write fantastically and aren't too concerned with improving. As my dear KK said earlier, their passion is Star Wars, not writing. I could probably name off ten authors I've known since my own newbiedom who haven't changed all that much in their writing style from then to today. And that's just at JC. In every other fandom I've been a part of, there's always a percentage of people who write because they love the story, and not the words. They have beta readers, but concrit on sentence structure and grammar won't really help them because it's just not important enough to obsess over.

Concrit from Strangers

I'm kind of torn on this issue. I can see both sides of it--as an author, it would kind of annoy me if said concrit came from someone I've never heard of before. It's just common courtesy to leave feedback every once and a while, even if it is just a "Good job!". I'd be willing to let it slip, though, if that person had a good background in fanfic and there was some solid proof I could access that showed me this person wasn't just spouting hot air. If I get a concrit from someone who doesn't have any stories posted, I probably won't pay much attention to that person. Again, common courtesy. I don't think it's right to critique someone else unless you have proof of your own qualifications to critique.

 

I have a hard time believing that someone is happy to wallow in mediocrity. It just seems odd. It isn't in human nature to approach a situation with the attitude "well, I suck, but...*shrugs* what the hell." What about reaching for that shiny brass ring? King of the Hill, Top 'o' the heap etc. etc. Everyone wants to improve, everyone wants to become better. Humans are creatures that are constantly progressive, always in flux, seeking to better themselves.

This notion could & does apply to writing/writers, and I'm not only speaking about the ones that go to sleep with visions of a Pulitzer dancing in their heads. If someone were to come along and say "hey, that was a good story, but there were some things about it that I think might help you to make it better," I would argue that 10 out of 10 times, the author would be willing to sit down and listen to what that person's thoughts were.

*** I just want to comment on a few things here. I would respectfully disagree that it isn't a part of human nature to not do your very best at all times. It's why people can go out on a golf course and enjoy a nice day playing without striving to become the next Tiger Woods. It's how we get the courage to try things in the first place by telling ourselves, "well I might suck, but what the heck, I'll try and just have a good time." I don't think this means anyone is wallowing in mediocrity. It all depends on the authors motivation. Some, probably a majority, want to become better writers, but there should be plenty of room for those that just want to enjoy a fun pastime. It just means that those wanting to help should always make sure that the help is desired and given in a way that is constructive and encourages the author to continue. That seems to be the most effective approach.

 

Another point to keep in mind is newbies writing for the first time probably will only be discouraged by a brutally honest constructive crit - possibly even to the point of never writing again. When you're starting out, you need encouragement a lot more than harsh critiques. This is where I think that fan fiction and a board like this can really help people go from not writing at all to becoming legitimate authors (in the sense that they are paid for their original works). Can you sell your Star Wars fan fic? No. But writing fan fic can certainly help one develop skills as a writer, and perhaps one day that author will be able to create saleable original pieces. We all have to start somewhere, and in that beginning stage, we usually need encouragement and criticism in as gentle as possible a manner. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when it comes to critiquing others work (and many times with posting in general, ) "sacasm is NOT your friend." And I agree that not everyone really understands how to give a proper critique of someone's work. Some may use a heavy amount of sarcasm and derogatory or even just plain insulting language, then wonder why an author is offended and say that "I just gave her my opinon and she can't handle constructive criticism." (not happened to me, thankfully but it can definitely happen). Needless to say, I think a critiquing "manners" course is a good idea, or perhaps should be handled in the newsletter.

sg

 

I have a hard time believing that someone is happy to wallow in mediocrity. It just seems odd.


First of all, it's wrong to assume that fanfiction is inherently mediocre. Critics always need to ask themselves whether the author's writing style is unpolished and in need of help, or whether it is the critic who lacks the sophistication to recognize the writer's ability and talent.


It needs to be remembered that for many, fanfiction is a fun diversion or hobby. Endless nitpicking and second-guessing by writers on their stories can easily ruin that fun.

In real life, homebrewing is my hobby, and I don't waste too much time comparing my brews with the stuff sold on store shelves. I've been to several festivals that have homebrew contests, but I have no desire to enter those because I don't want to get into something competitive based on something as arbitrary as personal taste. I enjoy the final product of my hobby and those people I share it with enjoy it too. That's good enough for me.

 

Certainly, you could choose to accept reviews from whomever you want to, but having such a prejudicial regard for comments that aren't from those in your inner circle seems...a bit counter-intuitive.

I didn?t say that though. People I know something about does not necessarily mean my ?inner circle of friends.? I did say that I don?t mind when my readers offer up opinions, but I did not limit it only to them.

The people who have helped me the most to think about and improve my writing came from reviews and betas. Yes, I sought out their help. They are known writers on this board. I don?t read their stories and they don?t read mine, because our interests are in different aspects of the saga. We might cross paths occasionally here in Resource but that is about it. I can see their writing, see how they respond to readers, that they read other people?s stories and reply, and that they put up well thought out posts. They participate and that counts for a lot.

Some authors are here for fun and nothing more, others have greater aspirations but their writing will evolve at its own pace. The thing is, people want to deal with it their own way, be that signing up in the Honesty is the Best Policy: Constructive Criticism, your offer thread or by asking in their stories. They may prefer private requests or be inspired to accept a review from someone after getting to know them.

For myself, and probably others, writers want to know something about the person giving criticism. They want to know what this person is like, what they know and can they back up their comments because they can be just as wrong, too. People want to know that the reviewer is sincere about what they are doing.

That?s not really a lot to ask, especially when you are talking about taking something as personal as something they have written and pointing out flaws and weaknesses in it.

 

This leads me to debate Herman. I have a hard time believing that someone is happy to wallow in mediocrity. It just seems odd. It isn't in human nature to approach a situation with the attitude "well, I suck, but...*shrugs* what the hell." What about reaching for that shiny brass ring? King of the Hill, Top 'o' the heap etc. etc. Everyone wants to improve, everyone wants to become better. Humans are creatures that are constantly progressive, always in flux, seeking to better themselves. >>

I understand your point, but there is such a thing as too much ambition and ego getting in the way. I don't buy that you can't be good at something while also just having *fun* while doing it. I don't buy the mindset that level of quality equals level of pretentiousness either.

Case in point: I play guitar, and people have said I am pretty darn good at it. But I don't want to do it for a living, for a multitude of reasons. It's just something I have a lot of fun with. But that doesn't mean I don't practice every day, either.

-Tim

 

I think the point Mr. Black was trying to make is that if we know we have room for improvement, whether its in something we intend to do professionally or just for sheer enjoyment, wouldn't we want to work towards that imorovement? A musician gets better by practicing and taking lessons. A writer gets better by practicing and listening to constructive criticism. And if you don't know what needs improvement, no amount of practice is going to improve it, so constructive critiscism is really rather, uh, critical for an author to improve. Sure, it may just be a hobby for some, but don't you care enough about your hobby to do a good job with it?