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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017
    Oh? You gave a market overview? LOL. Cause it sounded like you took a look backwards and pretended that it was simultaneously the future. Maybe some of this analysis should include some context? For example: long before TRoS premiered those of us who disliked TLJ said there would be a TRoS box office drop, it had nothing to do with whether Finn or Rey or Poe were popular it had to do with how TLJ went about distinguishing itself from other installments in the GFFA and how it deliberately failed to address in-movie questions and refused to provide through lines and connective tissue to the following movie. But no, let's just say the box office dropped off and that means the characters themselves aren't popular LOL.

    What was the market appetite for Rogue 1? Post numbers.
    What was it for Mando? Post the numbers.
    What was the market demand for Solo? Post the numbers please (hard to believe there was no market demand given the money Disney put behind it - right?)
    What was the market appetite for the ST following the PT?

    Let's do one even better, let's not do a post mortem where you you can Monday Morning quarterback using box office numbers. Everyone can tell what will fail and what will succeed after it has already failed or succeeded. Tell us what the market overview is for the Taika Waititi movie? They're making the movie so there must be one right? So tell us the overview. Post numbers. When you can't, then you'll better understand why I disregard your "market overview" about a movie franchise with Finn Jannah and Rose.
     
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  2. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Isn't fighting to protect someone/something you care about fighting for a cause? No longer someone living for their survival, he puts his life at risk for someone he cares about.
     
  3. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Mando is a streaming show. Different category. Also, why is Mando brought up in a discussion about the appeal or lackthereof of ST characters? keep ST separately.

    TFA made 2 billion worldwide, 936M domestic take, 1.13B overseas take. Out of that, China contributed with 124M. They hated the movie so drop was expected no matter how good or bad TLJ was going to be. I'll shiw China numbers because all studios want that market.

    RO made 1.056B, so roughly 50% drop from TFA. 532M domectic, 523M overseas take. As you can see, overseas retention was worse than domestic. China contributed with paltry 69M (things are even worse in SK where TFA made 24M to RO's 7M). Traditional markets also show significant drop in interest for the spin-off: Australia (71M TFA, 37M RO), Japan (97M TFA, 39M RO), Mexico (27M TFA, 11M RO lol Diego didn't help), UK (163M TFA, 81M RO), Germany (111M TFA, 46M RO).

    TLJ opening weekend in US was only 10% down from TFA but legs were bad so it ended up with 1.33B worldwide, 620M doemstic and 712M overseas drop. Over 35% drop from TFA altogether. International breakdowns. China (42M), SK(7.9M), Japan (66M), Mexico (13M), UK(111M), Australia (44M), Germany (83M). A note that TLJ opened lower than TFA overseas which points at that TFA wasn't a keeper. Opening weekend rush happens before a movie is seen so it isn't WOM driven. It largely depends on the previous movie. After that, it's all about WOM. As you can see, while new markets such as China dropped below even the spin-off RO, traditional markets posted numbers above the spin-off's by quite a lot (Japan, Germany, UK).

    Solo was a total bomb. Only 392M worldwide, 213M domestically, 179M overseas. Foreign markets, both traditional and new ones, completely rejected this one. China (16M), SK(1.8M), Australia (12.9M), Mexico (4.9M), UK (25.8M), Japan (18.9M), germany (16.9M).

    TROS made 1.074M worldwide, for 48% drop from TFA. Domestic take 515M, overseas take 558.9M. China (20M), SK(3.9M), Japan (66M), Australia (32M lower than RO), Mexico (16M), UK (75.9M lower than RO), Germany (66.8M)

    So as you can see, ST didn't grow, it shrunk considerably. 48% drop in only 4 years is a lot. RO lost a lot of support that TFA had for roughly 50% drop too but Solo proved a movie that not even SW markets wanted. So considering the trend which is shrinking of ST fanbase everywhere, lower interest or outright dismissal of spin-offs, and inability to interest new markets such as all important China, I don't see why continuing with ST characters would be a better business move than try to win over new markets with the new set of characters who (Taikia Waititi movie or do you think he's directing Finn/Rose/Jannah one?). The existing characters are lost to new markets that rejected them already. Those markets aren't going to suddenly fall in love with them. And studios need those markets cause budgets are getting bigger and bigger. All numbers are from Boxofficemojo. @rayjefury
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  4. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    If LucasFilm is giving Cassian a spin-off show, then it comes to reason they would be willing to have a sequel trilogy spin-off show (less so with a Solo spinoff)

    The thing is though, that John, Daisy and Oscar say they’re done. And want to move on.


    The only potential is if Kelly, Naomi or Keri say that they’re willing.
     
  5. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    There's a big difference between a streaming show and a movie trilogy. One is more expensive and a bigger risk than the other. Which is why they opted for Obi Wan show instead of movie the moment Solo flopped. They are not going to hand out 200M+ spin-offs like candies any time soon. Especially if they have a good reason to believe that characters wouldn't draw enough audience for the movie to be profitable.
     
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  6. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020

    At the moment. It depends how well their careers go post the ST. Apart from Oscar, they aren't well known outside SW.
     
  7. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I honestly think just about every actor listed would rather do something else at this point. John, especially.
     
  8. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    More important thing is what would LFL rather do and that doesn't seem to be continuing in ST era with ST cast. All actors have a price and come back for a price. But if studio isn't interested, than there's no return.Studio dictates whether there's any.
     
  9. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Fighting for someone is not fighting for a cause. For example, if your spouse has cancer, and you're fighting for her, you're not fighting for a cause, but of you're fighting for everyone who has cancer because your spouse had it, then you would be fighting for a cause.

    Finn going to SKB with Han was with selfish motives. He was there solely to save Rey in hopes she would run away with him. He was not there to help the Resistance. He was there for his own interests. Granted, he ended up helping, but it took a level or coercion from Han to get him to help.
     
  10. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    I agree with you in that if there ever is a spin-off that it will be a streaming show, not a film.

    If the actors are on board to sign on 5 years from now, I think Disney would gladly make that streaming show happen. It would be the easiest way to bring the ST cast back without continuing the Skywalker movie saga.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  11. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Who says? A cause can't be something and/or someone you care about? Don't people fight for causes based on them caring, in some way, about it?
     
  12. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Yup and streaming is the future anyway. Covid-19 proved that.
     
  13. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Or they could just make an animated show and get voice actors that sound like the actors. It worked for TCW. I would watch an animated show about the ST characters, especially if it was focused on Finn.
     
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  14. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    Neither Oscar nor John want to come back and there are reports that Ridley won't come back either. Oscar has implied that maybe in 30 years for a big pay day but that's about it. The chances of any directly related ST streaming show right now are slim to none. The Cassian show was announced because of his backstory that they never talk about being a sepratist turned Rebel I also find his character more fascinating then all of the characters in the ST. I may actually watch this show

    Unfortunately even though Finn is my favorite character I won't watch anything from the ST time period unless they somehow tie in some stories from TCW and Rebels to make something great otherwise yeah don't care. I also feel like the negativity that some of the actors have shown about Star Wars may keep them from pushing characters like Poe and Finn ahead in any type of storytelling
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I'm not so sure. Part of me suspects Disney's strategy from the start has either been to sever the link of actor to character, or if they have to stick with a previous bit of casting, like McGregor as Kenobi, they'll look to minimise the cost. There's going to be no negotiations with actors with delusions of grandeur.

    Could it work? If the first two episodes of Resistance were any indication - nope. Probably won't stop them trying again.
     
  16. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    I don’t think the actors have delusions of grandeur i think they just didn’t have a good experience with the property as yet the first film. Their characters are all over the place no consistency and a large part of the fan base hates them so why bother coming back not to mention the crazy part they loves them. I get the feeling they all would just rather move on to other roles

    The resistance was an unmitigated disaster for LFL
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  17. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017
    Again this is all post mortem. It's analysis in retrospect. We can all declare how they performed AFTER they have performed. I'm not asking you what their results were, I'm asking you what their forecasts were; because Disney doesn't have the luxury of knowing the box office performance of a project while they are still creating it. We are debating whether a franchise lead by Finn, Rose, and Jannah could work, we don't have box office numbers from this franchise to use as a gauge because it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean you can project the ST's performance onto it and say it's reality.

    If we follow your strict "past is prologue" example to forecasting performance then SOLO should have done well as a standalone, because Rogue One did well as a stand alone, but it didn't. If you are now poised to argue there are differences between SOLO and Rogue One (both in terms of production and story decisions) then you'll be making my point about why your attempt to paint a Finn, Rose, Jannah adventure with the ST brush doesn't work. And I personally wouldn't care if it wasn't an actual trilogy but instead was a series (as it allows for way more development and introduction of characters and complex arcs). But the ST is the ST. It's not the PT, it's not the OT, it's not anything that comes after it either. You can't predict what a new trilogy would do based strictly on past trilogies (and all their associated baggage). You can't even predict what the next movie in a franchise will do based strictly on the last one.
     
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Sorry, should have made it clearer that the 'delusions of grandeur' bit was a sarky line.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
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  19. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Post mortem is what determines the future. They hoped TROS would revive interest in ST (hence excessive fan service that includes completely throwaway FS Finn, reducing Rose, etc) but it didn't. It dropped from TLJ. So that's a downward trend. There's absolutely nothing about ST that says the trend will go upward. TROS dropped both domestically and overseas, for 258M global drop. In some cases, movies drop only domestically but increase overseas which makes them viable for sequels. The studio projects possible further drop in North America but also a rise in international markets. Take POTC for example. AWE was marketed as the end of the age of piracy, the end of POTC saga. The movie dropped from DMC domestically but increased overseas including debut in China which wasn't what it is now back in 2007. So China boxoffice was 16M. But then, OST made 70M in China in 2011 and overseas boxoffice was insane 804M. The last movie made 794M overseas, tad under OST but China take was a whopping 172M. So no wonder they greenlit a reboot for there's clearly audience for it overseas even with reduced domestic interest. OTOH, interest in ST is reduced everywhere and China and SK are totally lost. Please give me a reason why Finn, Rose and Jannah, whether together or separately, will revive interest in ST. All you've been doing so far is disputing numerical facts while offering nothing but wishful thinking. You have a character who is a meme that, according to numerous essays on this forums, studio cheated out of his leading man status cause they didn't see potential (but somehow will see it now that everyone laughs at him?). You have a character who faced Binks level of backlash that resulted in reducing her to an extended cameo in the last movie. And you have a new character who didn't even register. So please explain how come they have potential to carry a trilogy where every movie is going to cost over 200M (spin-offs ended up more expensive than some ST movies so that's that) on top of the fact that they didn't grow fandom but shrunk it.

    You can't predict anything with confidence from past experiences but they are in fact used in predictions because one has to start from somewhere. And you still haven't given any proof why these 3 characters would be the saviors of SW when 2 of them were dropped within the trilogy already and the third never took off. All you do is disputting numbers as irrelevant (even though they show that audience lost interest in ST characters) while never providing any argument in favor of your proposal other than because you like it.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  20. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Finn should have been a Jedi.
     
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  21. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    I basically see him as a Jedi, after the force sensitive reveal in TROS, but yeah it’s a shame that aspect of his story wasn’t developed more.

    Like a few others have said on the last couple pages, he probably has the most potential for future stories as a result, the force sensitivity opens a lot possibilities. And who knows, maybe in 5 or 10 years Boyega would be willing to play the character again.
     
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  22. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    For anyone that’s read or has a copy of The Art of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, what did it say about Finn? Both for just TROS and his development across the Sequel trilogy?
     
  23. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    [​IMG]
     
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  24. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    ST Finn: from soldier-traitor-rebel to FS general (TROS)
    The next step would be general-jedi.

    PT Obi-Wan: from Jedi to jedi-general

    From guardians to soldiers (PT) vs from soldier to guardian (ST>)

    'If Skywalker returns, the new jedi will rise'. I guess there was some conversations about this. Originally, the forceback was about Maz and Rey and Finn holding hands.
     
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  25. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017
    I cannot understate how incorrect this is.

    They "hoped" it would revive interest? Where does this assertion come from? The interest in the trilogy existed before TFA even premiered. But no, people aren't going to reward badly executed storylines with repeat visits. The momentum of TFA was squandered by an ill-advised divisive middle installment; that's why there was fan service in the final movie. It wasn't like they were trying to decide whether or not they were going to do a trilogy in the aftermath of TLJ, the 3rd movie was happening. They were trying to quell anger.

    And who is talking about extending the ST? The trilogy that concludes the Skywalker saga is over. I'm talking about a subset of characters from the ST in another adventure. For whatever reason, you seem unable to separate the two. IMO, there is no reason to introduce Jannah and Company 77 this late in the game except to posture them for a post ST adventure.

    Please explain how many movies you believe make up the ST? Is it in fact 3? Do you agree that, in fact, this trilogy is complete? So if there is a new story that includes Finn, Rose, and Jannah - how would this qualify as still being the ST? I'm not sure your logic holds here.

    Oh? I disputed numerical box office numbers? Please by all means, show me where. I think you may be confused a little bit here.

    I suspected if we went long enough you'd tip your hand. I think you should just lead with this as your argument instead of all the subterfuge meant to make this idea seem more academic and less biased. Or maybe I'm wrong. Would you argue against a Finn, Rose, Jannah story as a streaming series? Because if the answer is yes, then it's not really about the box office at all is it?

    Numerous essays on this forum assign a number of the issues for Finn (and the trilogy itself) to poor decisions made in the middle installment. Some of TRoS problems are self inflicted, some of them are the consequences of looking for a pathway to recovery from decisions inherited by TLJ. This is not a new revelation, it is on this site (and many other SW related forums) and has been dissected and discussed ad nauseum. How you critique Jannah as not registering when she doesn't even make her appearance in the story until midway into last installment is beyond me. But hey... maybe that can be fixed with... more screen time? I guess we'll never revisit Broom Boy either since he was a part of the ST. Stories don't introduce characters that are later developed in other projects apparently.

    So, just to be clear, while reducing the profiles of Finn and Rose, you're saying they shrunk the fanbase, and your question to me is how will increasing their profile increase the fan base to carry a new story forward?

    All you have to do is stop right here. Stop right here, and you're good. We would not even be debating if you would just stop right here LOL.

    And there's the strawman. I'm not sure I ever said that these 3 characters would be the savior of anything, perhaps you're projecting? But you seem to be the one continuing to make the case that two of the characters profiles were reduced as the trilogy went along, and also that the trilogy performed more poorly as it went along. And I'm not mad at you because this is a popular theme in here right now, that what really doomed the trilogy was making a relationship between Kylo and Rey the focal point (it really didn't help ANY of the characters, not even Kylo and Rey). I think any honest assessment of the trilogy will note that people who didn't like TLJ, disliked it for a wide array of reasons (many of which didn't overlap). There were a lot of completely self-contained camps that disliked TLJ for their own reasons. And in the attempt to reconcile the division spawned by TLJ, TRoS managed to unite nearly everyone in their displeasure for the final installment (whether they had liked TLJ or not). The problem with the trilogy was the lack of cohesion and the disparate story decisions. To argue that the characters are therefore rendered inert for future use is a stretch to put it mildly. You, and I, and everyone else is going to get a new trilogy one day. 10 - 15 years down the road perhaps but it's coming. And I guess you'll just have to be mad about it when it happens if you just didn't want to see Finn ever again.

    Me? I'd like some of the development of which these 3 characters got squeezed out of, in a future project. It could be a trilogy. It could be D+. It could be an animated series. Don't care.

    I just want to point here that you are definitely employing strawmen here because this is the 2nd time you have accused me of disputing numbers, and it remains as false as the first time you did it.
     
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