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ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Absolutely. Which was another part of my earlier point before the attempts to deflect from it.
     
  2. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    There's no deflection on my part cause I provide legit numbers instead of baseless assumptions. But I'll simplify it for you. If your boss hires you to bring him/her a minimum of 16% and you bring him/her only 12%, that's a bye bye. At least in a movie franchise, you don't get minimized out of employment entirely but only see a screen time drop from 30 min to 17 min. The perks of being in the movie industry as opposed to something more mundane.

    they break down all audience into several groups:

    Male/Female (to determine the audience share of man and women)

    Ethnic (Caucasian, African American, Latino, Asian, Other) to determine audience share based on ethnic background.

    Age such as under 25, 25 - 35, etc to determine audience share by age

    Nothing problematic here unless you want to spin it as such because it doesn't feed your narrative that other demo(s) were against the character. Whereas what happened was that the character, who was supposed to increase the interest of a specified demo in the franchise, didn't increase their interest even though marketing largely revolved around him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Did the MPAA break the audience numbers down by “posted racist crap on social media in the last five years” and “have actively supported equality for Black people”? Because they should have, if they want to break the audience down into several groups that might actually account for taste.

    Treating an entire ethnicity/age group/gender as a monolith or a “demo” instead of human beings, as in “Black people want to see this,” “women want to see this,” “young people want to see this”, is grossly problematic. You are ignoring the moral issue here in order to try to spin the conversation in a way that pretends racists don’t exist and anything that happened to Boyega was his fault.

    Racists exist. That’s not my “narrative“. That’s fact.

    My “narrative”, also known as a moral stance, is that stereotyping people and treating them as monoliths instead of human beings is unacceptable. My “narrative” is also that studios should not care if racist money spends.

    If you would rather mock that “narrative” than agree with it, that’s on you.
     
  4. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    I guess Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley should kiss their careers goodbye since the size of the white audience decreased by huge numbers throughout the trilogy. Or are only people of color responsible for "their" audience. :rolleyes:
     
  5. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    their screen time decreased between TFA and TLJ so that's that. [face_cowboy] But Luke's increased. And Poe's. [face_cowboy]
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  6. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @vaderito When you say, "If your boss hires you to bring him/her a minimum of 16% and you bring him/her only 12%, that's a bye bye," are you saying Boyega was only hired based on his skin color to attempt to appeal to other people who happen to share his skin color instead of hired for his acting skills? Because if so, I find such a perspective problematic for the following reasons: 1) it discounts the actual acting talent of a Black actor (in this case, Boyega) to focus shallowly on his skin color; 2) it reduces Boyega to just his skin color, which is then to be used as if it were some magical spell for drawing in more people who happen to share his skin color; and 3) it is based on assumptions about how all Black people (or at least all Black audience members) think the same, feel the same, or have the same taste for what they enjoy in entertainment. So, to the extent that this thinking process that you outlined dominated Disney's decision to hire Boyega or use him in the way you described, I would find that problematic and disturbing.
     
  7. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    There is no assumptions about thinking the same. MPAA simply checks audience share based on age, gender, ethnicity and they report those numbers. If there's another organization that goes deeper into how different audience members within those groups think, I haven't found it but everyone is free to find their reports instead of repeating "oh no no no they say all back people think the same, that's raycyst" even though they didn't single out black audience only but apply the same audience share measure to other demos. But I see what's going on here so I'm removing myself from the discussion. Point still stands. 12% is below 15-16% average and way below 22% and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below cultural event that is 35% even though this forum constantly drills everyone that Jedi Finn would have been a cultural event if he hadn't been bait and switch. Whereas in reality, he didn't interest the audience, who saw previews, enough to show up in force they are capable of when they are better motivated.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  8. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    The point still stands that the box office dropped off significantly throughout the trilogy, despite the primary focus of the latter two movies being on white actors. Specifically, the movie where AD had the most screen time had the smallest audience. Should the lesson that studios learn be that audiences just aren't that interested in AD? I mean, you said you are just looking at the numbers. The numbers speak for themselves... audiences just aren't that interested in white actors.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  9. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    The same movie with the smallest audience had Ridley with 50 min of screen time vs Driver's 20 min. Isaac and Boyega still had more screen time than him (20+ min) with Isaac edging out both. However, marketing doesn't say anything about screen time so it's a moot point. I don't know why it's brought up. The point is boxoffice rush or lackthereof based on previews (trailers, posters, basic WOM without spoilers)

    However, the reason I can't comment on TROS is because MPAA hasn't released audience share for TROS yet due to its late release. They released Endgame's but not TROS's. So that has to wait.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  10. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    The part of your post that I quoted and responded to seemed to describe what you believe to be the hiring philosophy Disney had when hiring Boyega which was basically that his skin color was the only reason he was hired and that his skin color should have been sufficient to draw in a substantial audience of people who happen to share his skin color, and if his skin color didn't bring in a large enough audience in one movie of people who happened to share his skin color, Disney is justified in reducing his role because he was apparently just hired for his skin color and not any acting talent. I was explaining why I find that hiring philosophy to the extent that it may have existed as problematic and disturbing. I was also giving you a chance to clarify if that is not what you meant.

    I think it is also worth mentioning that some people might have suspected a bait-and-switch marketing gimmick when they saw the TFA ads, and therefore not trusted Disney to do justice to Finn as a Black Jedi main character, which ended up indeed being the case for many audience members. Prior to TFA, Black characters in Star Wars were ultimately only minor ones like Lando and Mace Windu. I'm reminded of the SNL live skit that pokes fun at this lack of representation of Black people in a galaxy far, far away where Lando hosts a summit to ask, "Where are all the Black people in space?" With that history, it may take more than one marketing campaign for Disney to prove to audience members that Star Wars has changed how it is going to approach Black characters in Star Wars--to show that the Star Wars leopard can change its spots as the proverb goes.

    This is an area where taking a long term approach of proving genuine change is appropriate rather than running one marketing campaign, and if the marketing campaign doesn't work, just blaming that on Boyega and reducing his role rather than the Star Wars history of a lack of representation of Black people in space. It's very possible that people want genuine change--genuine diversity and representation efforts--from Disney rather than just clever marketing ploys and bait-and-switch tactics.
     
  11. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    if you don't think that studios think skin color/gender are sufficient to draw audience than I have a bridge to sell you. They absolutely do especially in blockbusters where everything is simplified in order to be understandable to 7 -77. Which is why there are complaints that, for example, female characters feel like male characters and that PoC characters feel like facepaint on a typical neutral generic character usually played by white actors. Maximum they do is throw in some recognizable race stereotype if they want the character to feel more ethnic. think Shaolin Master Stereotype Chirrut Ingwe. It is not to say they don't pick talent (Donnie Yen, for example) but that doesn't change the fact that they cast for market share increase.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If Disney indeed hired Boyega just because of his skin color or primarily because of his skin color, that’s really disturbing. It’s tokenism, which is insulting, and requires seeing Boyega as “a Black man” when I would bet good money that nobody at Disney thought of Driver as “a white man.” Viewing white people as the “default” ethnicity either globally or in a country that tries to describe itself as a “melting pot” is extremely problematic. It goes right along with viewing Black people (or Brown people, or women) as all having the same taste.
     
  13. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Driver had less screen time than Ridley, Isaac and Boyega in TROS.
    And I vividly remember when Taika Waititi hired Tessa Thompson as Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok the first thing he said in an interview when asked about his casting choice was:
    "I wanted to diversify the cast."
    Rogue One meanwhile, had an entirely diverse cast - female leads, men of different ethnic backgrounds - and it was an excellent film. Much better than TROS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  14. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    [QUOTE="vaderito, post: 56696612, member: 1417994"]if you don't think that studios think skin color/gender are sufficient to draw audience than I have a bridge to sell you. They absolutely do especially in blockbusters where everything is simplified in order to be understandable to 7 -77. Which is why there are complaints that, for example, female characters feel like male characters and that PoC characters feel like facepaint on a typical neutral generic character usually played by white actors. Maximum they do is throw in some recognizable race stereotype if they want the character to feel more ethnic. think Shaolin Master Stereotype Chirrut Ingwe. It is not to say they don't pick talent (Donnie Yen, for example) but that doesn't change the fact that they cast for market share increase.[/QUOTE]

    I am saying that to the extent that studios think this way it is problematic and disturbing.
     
  15. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    We agree on that. Though I would call it shallow and easy-fix above all else. But yes,definitely problematic since easy-fix covers up the real problem.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
    devilinthedetails likes this.
  16. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I feel for Kelly Tran, a lot of Asian SW fans were thrilled when she landed a major role in a SW film only for DLF to give her about one major line in TROS.
    I loved her character - she's pretty, good humoured and an amazing actress, and far more credible and identifiable than what they've turned Rey into.
    Most of all I admire her quiet restraint and dignity, after how shabbily she was treated.
     
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
  18. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Thanks, I'll check it out.
     
  19. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    The biggest issue with KMT's character and it's also a gigantic issue with Finn's character is how both of them came across in TLJ. According to reports TLJ originally opened with Rey and Luke and then jumped forward in time a bit with the opening being above Krait and Finn was Paige Tico's Gunner. He ended up being the sole survivor which makes their relationship and even him being a little less quick to anger at her make more sense due to survivors guilt. The whole Canto Bight part was supposed to be way more elaborate and not boil down to them both being complete morons.... It's really sad because Finn lost a ton of fans because of TLJ (like myself) and KMT was basically chased out of the trilogy and off social media by disgusting people. Now I hate Rose but going after the actress for reading lines when RJ was the one that created them in the first place was just ridiculous and I hope all of those people suffer for their bad Karma!
     
  20. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I've seen some of the comments - absolutely horrendous.
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Pretty similar to what happened to Boyega. I can understand why KMT felt the need to just walk away from social media altogether, and I think Daisy Ridley did the same thing. But I would have supported them wholeheartedly if they had fought back the way Boyega did.
     
  22. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't think Finn lost a lot of fans. I think his storyline in TLJ led to a great deal of anger directed at Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy. They thought Abrams would repair his character in TROS. Abrams didn't.
     
  23. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    If memory serves Disney or at the very least TPTB at Lucasfilm didn't want John Boyega in the role of Finn. In fact in the Concept artwork for TFA the artwork for Finn (who was originally named Sam was a Caucasian male. Even the scene of Finn being drawn to the Lightsaber while Rey is repulsed by it has the Caucasian version of Finn in the photo. I think JJ Abrams had to fight for John Boyega to get that role and legit had ideas for where to take the character. Lucasfilm was initially happy to us John Boyega and his enthusiasm and energy to promote TFA, but after that he's kind of shunted to the side.

    Rian Johnson had the idea to send Finn on a 'James Bond' style adventure but seemingly became bored with it and cut it down to what we got in TLJ. The Mess RJ left at the end of TLJ and the fan outcry against it forced JJ to try and wrangle a crowd pleasing ending from the shredded remains of everyones characterization (old characters and new). The fact he explicitly made Finn force sensative suggests to me that being FS had always played some role in Finn's future in the mind of JJ ABrams....or he did it to try and throw the character a bone when he couldn't do whatever he originally wanted to do. If JJ wanted Finn to be FS....and relayed that to Rian Johnson or Kathleen Kennedy (no proof of this to be fair, just considering the possibility) then I think I'd be VERY upset with the party responsible for abandoning that thread in TLJ.

    Anyways, those are my perspectives on the subject.
     
  24. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I honestly have no idea what went through their minds when they made TROS. They let every character down.
     
    Def Trooper, Jedi_Fenrir767 and Adept like this.
  25. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Rian Johnson once said, before TLJ came out in theaters, that he'd left a mess for the next director to clean up. He absolutly did and gave the next diretor only ONE film to repair any characters. The Original idea for Episode 9, (Balance of the Force by Colin) isn't much better than the film we got, but it has a few interesting ideas. Still....Rey suddenly being in love with Poe is an exceedingly strange decision considering the people she's actually intereacted with throughout the films while on screen. If she'd be in love with Finn, well we have at least two films where we've seen them interact positivly so it wouldn't be hard to buy, but Poe....It's one of the things that's made me consider that someone at Lucasfilm decided to sabotage Finn's relationship with Rey.

    I digress, trying to make Episode 9 while repairing the damage done to the characters without LOOKING like you're trying to repair that damage would be trickey for a great writer. I figure there's a fair bit of ego, and face saving going on when it comes to TLJ so anything that looks like it's trying to undo what happened in TLJ would be seen as an admission that a mistake was made and the various execs can't admit that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020