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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    You can't compare Finn's plot in TLJ with Han and Leia's in ESB at all. It'd be like if they decided to push Han with a random new girl (not Leia), and shoved him off to the side, while Leia was on her own dealing with the Rebels. The problem with Finn was he was pushed into a plot that had nothing to do with anything, moved away from all the key players he'd interacted with in TFA. Imagine if Han was put into a subplot with a random girl and that random girl then kissed Han out of nowhere at the end of ESB. Most audience members would be like "What?" because it's absurd.
     
  2. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    But why is that really an issue? really if that happened with Han it wouldn't be an issue. it would only be an issue if we hate the girl for not being someone else. its fine to bring in new characters and flesh them out.

    Now whether that was done well is completely different. but the idea of it is fine really.
     
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  3. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    One particular thing to note, that hurt Finn in TLJ, is that he didn’t have an OT character to bounce off of.

    Rey had Luke, Poe had Leia, but Han was long since dead.

    And many of Han’s attributes were already divided amongst Rey (Chewie, Falcon Pilot) and Poe (experienced veteran, pilot). And none to Finn besides “I have to choose a side arc.”

    It left Finn with bare bones. Especially when Rian split Finn and Poe stories. (I can’t complain with that, because Poe would then overshadow Finn together.)


    The result was that everything having to do with Finn in TLJ was from scratch (Rose, DJ, Canto Bight).

    Everything else from TFA was already with Rey (Jedi, lightsaber, Luke) or Poe (Resistance, War, Leia).


    The only returning factor from TFA for Finn in TLJ was Phasma (already a joke and barely there) and BB-8 (comedic and yet somehow still overshadow over Finn’s skills anyway in TLJ).
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  4. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 12, 2017
    It's an issue because it removes Finn (and Han) from all the characters they bonded with, removes them from the story, and puts them in a subplot that has nothing to do with anything and could easily be cut. Finn deserved far better as a character. Empire Strikes Back is beloved because it knew what to do with the characters. Han and Leia were together and their subplot is many people's favorite part of ESB. Most people find Finn's plot the most boring aspect of TLJ. Rian Johnson didn't respect Finn as a character. ESB even introduces a new character - Lando - and has him with Han and Leia and builds their relationships rather well. TLJ did nothing of the sort with Finn and Rose.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  5. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    I actually disagree. if Rian had no respect for Finn he would have gotten far less than he did IMO. he respected Finn in his own way. whether people liked the plot he got is totally different. i am fairly certain Rian didn't make Finns plot with a lack of interest. it interested Rian for sure.
     
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  6. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 12, 2017
    Except we have quotes where they said they had to "add more" of the newer characters to TLJ while they were already filming, because they hadn't expected them to break out as much as they did in TFA. When you look at Finn's plot, this makes so much sense, because it does nothing for the movie and could easily be removed. It's just there to beef up Finn's screen time, without actually caring about him as a character. Rian hardly even talked about Finn when discussing TLJ.
     
  7. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    The Finn plot is so preachy that i fail to believe Rian didn't put alot of thought into it. its a subplot that likely interested him in a storytelling type of way.
     
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  8. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    Agreed. Execution is another story though.


    But you can’t say Rian didn't respect Finn. He gave him his own ally/Interest with Rose, shapeshifter villain with DJ, BB-8 as a trickster ally and included Phasma as an antagonist battle that he actually won. All supporting characters to Finn.

    And unlike Rey and Poe, he actually got to go to different places like a quest. (Rey stuck on Jakku and Poe stuck on ship).


    All the components of a protagonist going on a hero’s journey were there. It’s the execution that was lacking.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  9. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 12, 2017
    It's preachy to Rian's ideals, but it has nothing to do with Finn. I think Rian enjoyed the Canto set piece and all the depth he thought he added to it, far more for himself as a director, rather than anything to do with building up Finn as a character. Canto was made for Rian to use it as a chance to preach his own beliefs. He just forced Finn into the plot so he could use it.

    Finn should've had nothing to do with it. He should've already been with the Resistance by the time TLJ started, and either learning to become a Jedi or properly starting up a Stormtrooper rebellion. ANYTHING but a repeat of his TFA arc, only with Rian Johnson's commentary this time.
     
  10. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 6, 2019
    Absolutely this. I think Rian was far more enamored by his overindulgent Casino Heist plot than he was with Finn himself.

    That came second, which is why we have rich arms dealers using child slave labor for no apparent reason, and the all-important DJ just pops up entirely out of nowhere and has little to add to the plot. Phasma again just pops up for a quick boss fight that has zero affect on anything.

    Lastly, we have the penultimate scene of Finn sacrificing himself out of hatred, and Rose stops him because she loves him. Again, all of this entirely out of nowhere.

    He came up with the casino first, then tacked on a bunch of basic moral lessons to make the arc seem more grand than it actually was.
     
  11. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

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    Apr 28, 2002
    Just had to comment on the bolded because it does seem to be the root of a lot of anti-Finn posts.

    Why would anyone believe the issues with other character's stories or even Kylo's story is Kylo's or Driver's fault? They were the victim of the same failure of TPTB to make him a good character because once TLJ hit, KK/RJ/Disney wanted to make sure Driver was the hero they didn't care how it made any character look - Driver's own included.

    The fact that Kylo Ren character ends up being the embodiment of afluenza must be a coincidence.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  12. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    You're right. On the surface, it may be reasonable to compare Han and Leia's 'story' with Finn and Rose... but ultimately one of those stories is conceived and written extremely well, and the other is not. As you say, putting Han and Leia together in TESB, not only allows for the development of those two characters, but allows for Luke to have his scenes on Dagobah, and for those scenes to not be encumbered by other characters whom have little function (i.e. Rose)... and of course it's the Han and Leia story that actually move events to Cloud City where the entire denouement of the film is... so Han and Leia's story/subplot (in TESB) has infinitely more purpose, and associated drama, than anything that occurs in the Finn/Rose subplot.

    Of course, the clever thing about TESB is that Han and Leia's escape from Hoth, and the chase through space, is representative of the Rebels themselves being chased across the galaxy. That TESB focuses on the micro level of that event, Han and Leia, allows events to be much more personal and dramatic. Compare this with TLJ, where you have Poe/Leia, and the rest of the resistance, evading the FO in the most boring chase sequence committed to film, Rey doing her thing with Luke (which should have had a lot more utility that it did), and Finn and Rose on the Casino planet. Structurally, it's all a bit of a mess. If TLJ wanted to better mirror TESB (or just be better than it was IMO) it should have been Finn and Poe on the run, counterpointed with Rey getting force lessons with Luke. That TLJ is all over the place reflects, IMHO, the fact that there's too many characters and the writers don't know what to do with them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  13. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    I do think people put too much emphasis on Driver and i have heard this argument many times of oh a popular actor we must make them the hero, when really villains are actually more popular, so i don't believe for one moment that they feel pressure to make ANY actor the hero. i do think the complexity to Kylo Ren is a big part of what made him interesting to alot of the audience and maybe even in writing. and i think thats partly to blame on both Rian and JJ, because they did give him a complexity, even if it was all about defying expectation, they still did it.
     
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  14. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I think Kylo is a conflicted character... but (IMHO) he isn't a complex character, because the story/narrative never strives to explore reasons for that conflict, other than the most surface. I'd say that Finn and Kylo have the same level of complexity, but Kylo is given the more interesting scenes... and he's obviously the 'bad boy' of the story, which can make a character appear more interesting. But that's just my opinion. :)
     
  15. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Biggest thing to note is that Han and Leia in ESB, then Obi-Wan in AOTC, and for another franchise, the remaining Fellowship of the Ring in The Twin Towers, all end up actually opposing the main villains more directly while the protagonist is going through their longer journey towards the final confrontation.

    That alone gives their stories significantly greater standing than Finn's in TLJ... but they also all showcase either some kind of personal character growth or at least get to show off their own skills as a protagonist in a separate story arc.

    Finn doesn't get any of that - his growth is actually regressed from TFA and restructured more as a "moral of the day" story rather than a character evolution, he doesn't really get to show off anything, and he rather emphatically doesn't act as the main enemy/prey of the main villains (the story doesn't even expand Phasma to provide him a good personal opponent.)

    That's why he ultimately flounders there.
    I would actually debate 1) the idea that Kylo and Finn have comparable complexity, 2) the idea that Kylo has actual complexity that can be agreed upon, and 3) that Kylo really was elevated by his complexity over Finn and that instead he was elevated more by sheer favoritism.

    Like, just flat out... Finn seems to have a lot of concrete, substantial, and genuine complexity in just TFA... while I'd struggle to argue that Kylo ever really becomes complex even if all three films are taken into account.

    Kylo's biggest wrinkle and complexity is that he's emotionally conflicted over being evil... but he's not mentally conflicted over being evil, his actions don't stop being bluntly evil, and he doesn't even really use his own agency to stop being evil. Kylo is, at best, "two-dimensional" instead of three dimensional... and not even all that two-dimensional in any scene that doesn't involve his family. until he magically gets freed from Palpatine's influence... he's just a bad guy ruled by banal and simple ambition. He's very much like Hux, but moodier, and that's really it; the break between his Kylo and Ben personas relies too much on outside influence and clear lack of agency on his part.

    Finn has two scenes that just by themselves show a greater complexity than Kylo because they encompass turmoil and inner conflict across both his mind and his heart, and actually define a more complex personality: his epiphany moment on Jakku and his deciding to defect, and his confession and return scene at Maz's castle with Rey and Han. Finn's Jakku and Star Destroyer scene showcases horror, guilt, disgust, fear, and bravery all warring with a mind that is processing everything wrong and dangerous about his situation, with his training fighting his conscience and his ability to analyze his situation and realize what he needs to do to survive. His scene at Maz's palace shows guilt, shame, fear and resignation... before compassion horror, and bravery come rearing back when the Hosnian System blows up, while his mind analyzes his situation, figures out when he can no longer maintain his charade, makes an appeal to Rey but accepts her decision... before realizing that no, he can't stomach running away now when SKB fires.

    Like, Finn actually chooses what to do and changes his own mind in TFA, unlike Kylo in the other three films, and the Finn at the end of the film is *NOT* the same Finn at the middle of the film is not FN2187 at the start of the film, while Kylo in TFA is pretty much the exact same dude as Kylo in TLJ and Kylo in TROS until his mom pulls a magic trick.

    Honestly, a lot of that has more to do with shoddy writing for Kylo and a negligent and apathetic ignorance towards Finn for the other films. And I can't even really say that Kylo "stole" Finn's spot in the story, either by earning it the way a break out character does or having the production crew write him to breakout - it really feels more like LFL and Johnson just ignorantly assumed Kylo was the lead already, and were just in denial that he wasn't yet... kind of like how in denial they were about a lot of things with the character.
     
  16. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't know. Perhaps there was an attempt at making Kylo Ren complex. But to me, it was an attempt that failed due to bad writing. Then again, it seemed to me that just about every major character was stymied by bad writing. Including Finn.
     
  17. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Personally id say Kylo is more complex then Finn. Finn doesn't have much to him. his ties to being a trooper ain't strong enough to matter. mostly because you can't humanise Troopers and then have Finn happily kill them. but then we do not know enough about Finn either to suggest there is a big development between where he was as a trooper and where he is now. Finn started out as a trooper who didn't wanna be there and ends with the rebels. in that respect Han in the Solo movie probably had better progression in that idea.

    Finn wanted to run, and keep running, then he stopped running and helped the good guys. there really isn't enough complexity there. he isn't held back by having been a trooper. he isn't battling some brainwashing from the first order that conflicts his character, he doesn't automatically operate like a soldier like say in the way the Clone Wars troopers did by nature. he is just Finn. and maybe those angles would have been boring in trying to replicate the episode 4 formula anyway.

    Kylo is complex because as much as people wanna argue the execution. he is still a character thats held back by his heritage and by a pull to the light. not in a huge way to the point where he is a soft villain that we don't see as a threat, but more a way thats clearly tormenting him. the dark is easier and more seductive, so the easier path is to let yourself be taken by the side thats the most seductive. its easier to give into seductive urges then it is to stop them. the fact that there is even pull there shows there is complexity even if its not to the degree people seem to think the light should be. when Kylo hesitates thats a weakness in his character, and for a villain thats a weakness that shouldn't be there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don’t consider a drama king personality to be “complex.”
     
  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    I think I'd put it this way - Kylo's concept(s) are intended to be complex, and at bare minimum, a competently executed version of *ANY SINGLE* concept for him would require complexity... but the different films are at cross purpose over what, exactly, his concept and character is, with a result that he ends up being more banal, static and flat than he should be.

    Both Finn and Kylo suffer from miscommunication and interpretation of their characters especially between TFA and TLJ that ultimately undermoines them acorss both films and going into TROS... but I'd say Finn at least has more focus on his TFA story and concept, because he's the lead there, not Kylo, with the result being he's more complex from the experience, while Kylo really only had his possible complexity as a twisted villain hinted at... and then TLJ basically emerges as a nothing movie for both characters.
    I'm just going to try and make this simple, and provide something like "proof" that Finn is more complex than Kylo, even if the match up is just Finn in one movie vs Kylo in all three:

    1. In TFA Finn's decisions, the ones that he makes, changes his actions and eventually even his motivations, eventually leading to him making choices that lead to an ironic reversal of his earliest scene, in part because he not only has numerous different and sometimes conflicting motivations... but because he finds them actually evolving, growing and even ends up seeing some fall behind others they had beaten before. FN2187 is your standard stormtrooper... until his horror and fear make him a cunning, if panicked deserter... until his compassion and private enjoyment of appreciation makes him a falsely motivated but still effective hero... until his horror and care for Rey makes him a genuine and truly selfless and brave hero.

    2. Kylo, in contrast, across three films, really only has one single conflict inside him, his mental desire to be a murderous ****, and his emotional guilt over it. And as a result, we see his mental side clearly is stronger, and his heart is weak, and he just chooses to keep being a murderous **** until magic finally frees him.

    I can understand the predilection towards presuming angst somehow matters more than virtue... but fluidity and actual depth can't be valued over it.
     
  20. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Problem with Finn as i said before is that you don't know who Finn is. he apparently was raised by the first order and that has no impact on who he is as a person. Even the Clones were soldiers by nature who struggled to not be soldiers. Finn is an everyday man, which is probably the dynamic JJ wanted. yeah he Lies to Rey because he doesn't want her to know he was a trooper, but i don't think id call that hugely complex. if you wanted to be generous id say that was generously simple complexity for his character. its something that he gets over fairly quickly and once you get over these complexities then you have cured them.

    Finn feels like a character who got drunk one night, signed up to be a trooper and the was like ah crap i didn't know killing would be involved!

    It might have helped if Finn had a scene prior to going to the planet in TFA so we could see him prior to his breakdown. otherwise he just seemed like he was never on board with it, even though he was raised by it and only knows the first order.

    As for the heroes journey. i find that Finn is also a character that needs to be dissected to really figure out what it is he wanted. there is no evidence for him to really get into his character. again Hans progression from the empire was probably better in that regard.

    What benefited Kylo is that the pull to the light even exists. they could have no included that at all. but also the fact that there is a backstory for him thats hinted but very much unknown. back with TFA we didn't know who Snoke was and we didn't know what happened with him and Kylo. Now we seen TROS we kinda get a different sense of what happened. there is just alot more there then what they bothered to give Finn. probably because it would stop Finn being an everyman being thrown into the star wars universe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  21. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    That’s the issue I have with differing Finn and Kylo.

    It’s pretty obvious Kylo has a backstory because he’s now opposing Luke and his parents and joined the other side.
    He has backstory between Himself, Han, Leia, Luke and Snoke. Over the Trilogy and extended material we will learn more about it.

    The way they had Finn inroduced in TFA, from his intro scene and then when he confesses to Rey. That’s that. That’s his backstory.

    I wish there was more effort put into Finn’s background. But once you see his arc in TFA that’s no backstory to be told. What you see is what you get, so to speak. He was presented to be a Stormtrooper from birth, he trained but didn’t feel like he belong and then the intro scene to TFA.

    Seeing that, between Kylo and Finn, of course they were going to delve more into Kylo post-TFA than Finn. He’s the one with backstory.
     
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  22. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Really Finn should have been a little more like the Clones in Clone Wars, they were brought up for doing one thing and they found it hard to break that mind set. Finn doesn't really have that issue. even though he should know nothing but how he was raised.
     
  23. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    They both have backstory...

    ...the difference is, Finn’s is covered, addressed, used for his story, and then the substance of his story is everything going forward, as the “backstory” for the character at the end of TFA is the story leading up to it that unfolds before our eyes.

    Sadly, in comparison, Kylo’s story shoves the majority of whatever substance he’s supposed to have to his backstory, which is a mystery in TFA... then still a mystery in TLJ, even as its treated as though it were known and existing... then *still* a mystery in most of TROS because they don’t do more than give a two sentence explanation, by which point there’s also too little time to dip into the intricacies of his story when the previous film also neglected Rey going forward when she matters more than Kylo.

    That’s why Finn has more depth than Kylo - it’s actually on screen.

    We do see Finn’s motivations, because he shows them to us, and we see them change and transform and eventually reverse.

    We see him start out as your classic, dehumanized stormtrooper FN2187, then decide “Holy Sithspit! I know what being a stormtrooper is about now! I can’t doing that! That’s horrifying!” then realize “Phasma’s on to me... oh Sithspit, Phasma’s on to me! I need to get out of here before the kill me or something worse!” then find out “Huh, this Finn identity... I like it. And that pretty girl is smiling at me when she thinks I’m a Resistance member, and her and that robot from Poe are my only way out of here! Fake it ‘til you make it - out of danger, I mean!” before finally going through “Can’t fake it anymore, time to face the music and confess my sins, fun while it lasted... wait, SKB has fried - they killed the Hosnian System... ... ... I can’t leave. I have to at least make sure Han and the Resistance know what it is - wait, Rey’s been captured!?!... Okay, time to man up, get over the fear, and do what I have to.”

    We actually see Finn’s fear, desire for his own life, and desperation clash with his empathy, compassion, and humanity... and we see his priorities shift and change as the film goes on.

    In contrast, Kylo’s story goes “I need to be evil and powerful, which will require murdering my loving family, because [reasons to be revealed later]“... and it stays that way until a brief bit of TROS, where it becomes “I need to be evil and powerful, which will require murdering my loving family, because Palpatine was in my mind, or something.”

    Even when the reveal is made... it doesn’t actually make Kylo complex, because Kylo isn’t complex in the movies. He’s just as surely going to kill or torture anyone he’s not immediately related to before Leia frees him as he was in his first scene, and his lauded conflict over his family still doesn’t actually stop him from killing or torturing Han and Rey, or ordering someone to kill his mother.
     
  24. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    Oh come on. It's been five years and we are saying Kylo has a backstory because it exists but no one knows what it is and it's not on screen and so far we have a 1 of comic and 4 issues of a comic book that don't even tell us the really important part of his backstory..... This has to be a joke. Kylo will never have a 'backstory' fleshed out in any form because he doesn't sell well. His comics sold well in limited print runs and collectively barely broke the 100,000 mark that's just awful the people that buy extended material don't really buy Kylo stuff heck they don't buy much of anything anymore but that's another story. If they would sell a million copies they would have made it by now Disney is desperate for anything about the ST to popular. Heck ITUNES is selling the whole saga for 10 bucks a film now, seriously considering buying the OT but I just don't want to give them any money right now. The brand needs a serious kick in the pants and sorry to say Kylo isn't it.

    As @godisawesome points out all of Finn's key elements for his backstory are on screen or at least discussed on screen. He is a child abducted by the first order, trained as a trooper and defects. We then learn more about his personality and tasks as a trooper. We learn a lot more about Finn in TFA then we learn about Kylo from a definitive perspective in TFA than we learn throughout the ST. The character had way more potential than Kylo to have an interesting story more important an original story that would have been worth telling and not some crappy rehash of PT and OT elements. Instead after having TFA off to roaring but flawed start all of Finn's potential is promptly trashed in the following film. It's no wonder the trilogy went on a downward trajectory as it veered even more into rehash territory.

    If someone wants to like Kylo better just because okay but because of backstory....
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  25. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Kylos backstory is the backbone of the trilogy because it is the one which connects the saga.

    I remember after seeing TFA, some people commented about how does Finn adjust or look so well adjusted if he was brainwashed from birth. I recall that as one of the issues some had immediate after watching tfa.
     
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