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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    The ST always had the OT characters as being central - that’s what Disney wanted. But they also wanted it to be an ST and they wanted it to be a soft reboot with the focus on the new young characters. I believe that *all* the writers and directors had to balance these competing studio demands, which were not in the best interest of a good narrative.

    I think it was very obvious in TFA that Han’s role was limited and supporting, no matter his screen presence. If one conflates a nostalgic desire to see a fave onscreen with them being the lead I don’t know what to say but you weren’t following the narrative and its cues as they were intended. I can’t see how anyone would think that TFA was *about* Rey and Han, not Rey and Finn.

    One can separate which character one is most fascinated by onscreen with what one’s understanding of narrative tells one which characters a narrative is about.
     
  2. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2021
    I sure the intention was for Finn to be lead male, but the effect of Harrison Ford reprise the Han Solo was that as soon as he appear, I think that he adopt the lead male position. This is not nostalgia, but what I see happening in The Force Awaken.This is part due to Harrison not really being in the "old wise mentor" role but still very much a leading man in an action role. He was not "Old Han the Wise" he was being "Older Han the Gruff and Tough" It feel like Finn almost become the support male. He follows Han and Rey from this point and has to sit in the back of the Falcon when Han and Rey can sit in the front seats. Han take charge and leads them around, and Finn has to call him Mr Solo. Han feel more prominent and capable during the scene on the snow base where Finn feel much more as a sidekick to Han than the other way round. I think there was a delete scene which show Rey and Finn riding a speeder car but it was cut out.
     
  3. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    paradigmes, I get what you are saying, however, the role is not determined by audience reception but on story structure. Regardless of whether Finn's character feels overshadowed by Han's character or not, he remains the secondary protagonist and male lead because of the way he affects the story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  4. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2021
    I do not think it was intended to be this way for Finn, just what I feel happen as an unintended consequence of inserting Han / Harrison into this film.
     
  5. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Honestly, I think it's down to the execution, such as the execution of Finn's scenes aboard Starkiller Base. For example, I will never not hate the line "I'm just here for Rey." because it distracts from what Finn is saying (He always intended on winging the plan, not abandoning it - this is told in the conversation then and shown later on)

    There's also his confrontation with Phasma which is played off as too comedic and distracts from what's really meaningful about the encounter: that this is part of Finn confronting his past and fears which, in this case, is him being in a position of power over his former captain and being able to reject her dehumanization of him when she calls him by his old number and instead throwing the fact that he has a name at her. He doesn't have to be afraid of her and he even gets to prove her a coward (when she would have executed him for disobeying orders) and throw her out like trash.

    Han didn't overshadow Finn to me because Han is just another character to me but I still felt the last part of the film had some lackluster moments for Finn and I put that down largely to execution instead of Han's presence.

    (I also think they should have given Finn a better showing early against the other stormtrooper since Finn doesn't have any action scenes to himself and there was no need to not have him be able to put up a better fight)
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  6. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I don't believe the studio had specific demands regarding the characters, actually. More likely, it was just assumed that Luke, Leia and Han would play significant roles. Not necessarily large, but significant. Especially since Luke and Leia, at least, did just that in GL's story treatment.
    Everybody involved (and most of us not involved) assumed this.
    The reason why Han's role in TFA is as big as it is is the same as the reason why the whole movie is what it is: JJ simply decided to make the movie the way the nostalgic little fan in him felt a Star Wars movie should be made.

    That said, I've never felt that Han overshadows Finn. Finn remains the deuteragonist of TFA, because at the end of the day, it is by and large a well-written film.
     
  7. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I think it's a little more responsive than that, although certainly having Han/Ford in the movie was a big help to boost the Nostalia-berries. But because they feared Luke over-shadowing the new cast every time he was introduced, or whenever Rey found him in early scripts, and determined the best story to avoid that scenario was placing him at the very of the movie ... it meant they still needed a Mentor Role to be filled. Someone had to meet the kids at the end of the first act, tell them about Kylo and Luke and the Force, and then help them get to the Death Star, I mean...Star Killer Base. Luke is out. And I think they wanted to save Leia for Ben's story, and it probably just didn't make sense to have her be the Mentor.

    So that left Han. There's literally no one else to do it. Which probably made things even easier on them since without him being the Mentor, they were probably scratching their heads about what to do with him. They write that he and Leia are split up, that he's been on the road, smuggling again, looking for the Falcon. And boom, two problems are now solved.

    Unfortunately, no matter how much they tried to avoid 'over-shadowing' problems, it was bound to happen regardless. When you have Luke and Han and Leia, and certainly Harrison Ford, and a bunch of largely unknown actors and new characters, you're going to experience that a bit. Especially given that fans have wanted to see the next chapter in the OT3 lives for 40 years, even if we all knew they had to pass the baton. And in a weird twist of irony, by hiding Luke till the end, and turning his character inside out, they basically forced themselves to devote way too much of the middle chapter on him, and too little on Rey, and Finn, and even Kylo, and thus full-filled their own prophecy.

    I really think that so many of the creative decisions are a direct result of fearing Luke's over-shadowing potential nature and hiding him until very end of TFA, so that the next guy can figure it out. It's their Prime Narrative Decision and reveals their planning style as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  8. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The other irony is that Han proved how well a Mentor role could fit in both allowing the older character to still be prominent and impactful on the story, but still serve a supporting role - so whether they would have had the bravery to have Luke be in the first film or were wary of too much OT awesomeness overwhelming the entire new story... they had strong evidence about what would work in Luke's next appearance.

    They just didn't do it.
     
  9. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2021
    I think this is what I am try to say, but you said it better. Yes, the anticipation to seeing those character again was, in my opinion, an obstacle to the new characters like Finn and Rey. And what make this even stronger, is that even "old Han" and "old Luke" are not that old where they become the old wise wizard of the film.

    They were not seemingly now fill the "Ynyr" (Krull) or "Amon" (Clash of the Titans) or "Zed" (Battle Beyond the Stars) type role from fantasy film, but just slightly older version of their previous incarnation.
     
  10. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    DLF could have given the OT minor roles snd actually committed to letting the new characters shine. That they wanted the best of all worlds just goes to show that ultimately, creativity and narrative quality will bow before corporate considerations.

    One of DLF’s greatest W’s was getting fandom to pin the vast majority of the blame on the directors as if JJ or RJ were dictating to DLF and not the other way around.
     
  11. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    If they were really that concerned with this over-shadowing stuff, there is a way to avoid it; kill em off sooner and make their deaths important to the story.

    Have Luke in exile at the first Jedi Temple. He's spent the last 5 years in a deep, trance-like mediation (or something) and has lost his connection - not to the Force - but to the living. The events of losing Ben to the dark side were so traumatic for him, so deeply personally painful, that he basically turns away his family, his friends, the galaxy, life-itself, and seeks refuge in the one thing never failed him. The Force.

    The first act we meet Han (as crusty ol' retired general with no purpose and nothing to do anymore, kinda meta) and Leia (NR council-member who wants to hand over her role to her protege, and adopted son, Poe Dameron). There's an attack on Jakku. Han/Leia and their personal fleet go rescue it. We meet Rey. Finn defects from the Imperials. Small battle with IR. Han is killed, maybe even by Kylo, and Leia is in a coma. Her last words to Rey are "Find Luke" War is starting again!

    And it's this event that forces the new heroes to step up. Basically because there's no one else left. Poe takes command of the NR fleets. Rey and Finn decide to go find Luke. There's this air of naiveté about it though. But they sneak off on their own, cuz no one believes them, and go search for the first temple. End of Act 1. (Again, because no one else is left to help, Luke becomes important. Whereas in the ST we got, Leia is still around so Luke isn't even technically needed)

    Act 2 adventures and run in with Kylo and the FO. They find Luke in the last few minutes of the movie, wake him up from his deep force meditation. He's kind of out of it, groggy, weird. Realizes what's happened to Leia and Han and slowly comes back to reality. How long have I been out? What year is it? Who you are you? (This also means he doesn't need a whole movie's arc to get back to Normal Luke in TLJ. We can then focus on Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo, with Luke as the Yoda mentor)

    Just a thought. lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  12. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    The original cast were kinda in the shadow of Obi Wan and Yoda from the OT. You can tell alot was influenced by those roles. If not alot of the film is influenced by the OT and probably why there wasn't gonna be anything particularly unique with them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  13. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I never felt that Luke (or the OT3) was in Obi-wan's or Yoda's shadow in the OT. In fact, there wasn't even an US vs THEM at that point for there to be a shadow. It was just ... the characters. Alec Guinness lent some gravitas to the movie, because he was more famous, and this huge actor, but that's it.

    But never once did he over-shadowed Luke. The focus was always on Luke, his POV, his adventure.
     
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  14. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    I must respectfully disagree. Obi-Wan and Yoda both fulfill their role as the wise old mentor character correctly, even when watched now against the context of prequel trilogy which show their earlier adventures as capable, heroic action characters.

    I think that the equivalent scenario would be for not Alec Guinness to appear in the original trilogy as an old man Obi-Wan, but the Ewan McGregor as he is now at age 50, and doing all the same stunt and action as he did in the prequels. Everybody focus would be on him, especially if the prequels had came first in chronological order and they loved him from those films.
     
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  15. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    This!

    Obi-wan says "I'm getting too old for this sorta stuff" too. Which leaves the action for Luke and Han. Imagine if Obi-wan pushed Luke aside and was like "I got this kid, sit back." And then proceeded to blow up the Death Star by himself. Even Obi-wan's one action scene, a duel with Vader, isn't about Obi-wan, or even Vader. It's about protecting Luke, and showing him that there's more to the force than he believes right now. Which will come in handy when Luke is in the trench.
     
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  16. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Well that could be questionable. Obi Wan left Luke and Han to save the princess so he could do something to the Death star. He then fights Vader. not Luke or Han. Him. And then to say he is protecting Luke... perhaps he shouldn't have decided to die after he see Luke was in the same location. Its very much something that if this film wasn't 30 years old at this point we would be saying it was very selfish or dumb it was of Obi Wan to die even though they were not even off the death star yet.

    The characters are very much used in that way where their purpose in being in that position and their deaths are also very similar. Nothing particularly unique in direction.

    Like alot of things in the ST, its disguised as something, but its really not. its more about how people perceive it based on personal view on the OT vs original versions of characters later fleshed out in a recast trilogy. than not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  17. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    People are forgetting the other most important legacy character in the OT: Vader. The OT manages to not only give Vader an "arc" s that isn't at the expense of Han, Leia, or Luke, but Vader's evolution in the OT is directly tied to Luke's evolution. It's easy to imagine Luke having his own version of this journey in the ST that was tied up with Rey, and his striving to rebuild the Jedi & cope with his nephew betraying him in a way that was sustainable and worked.

    I think there was a natural story to tell with Luke and Leia and their children grappling with their family legacy in tandem with rebuilding the jedi and the new republic. And such a story does not preclude non-skywalker (and maybe non-Jedi) characters like Finn as long as they actually make decisions that impact the overall story.
     
  18. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Totally.

    And another issue at the center of this is that the ST doesn't really know or care about its own protagonist. Her back story and mystery box revelation wasn't even decided upon until late in the game. And it doesn't even make sense for her character.

    It's no wonder they have over-shadowing problems, when you haven't developed your main hero at all. It's basically a nature abhors a vacuum situation. Anyone other than Rey, is going to be shadowing over Rey.

    And there definitely was a way to archive this. Unfortunately the first director didn't really set up the hero well, the second director only cared about the bad guy, and destroying-rebuilding Luke, and the third director just panicked and threw whatever he could at the screen.
     
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  19. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    I agree with much of this but disagree about blaming the directors.

    I know you may just be talking about what was done rather than why - for all practical purposes - it was done, but it still feels that DLF is getting away mostly scot-free just because fans are more familiar with the big faces attached to the movies than with the suits bts with the real power and - importantly - concerns that are corporate, not creative.
     
  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I highlighted that part partially because I think that, as counterintuitive as it may seem, there’s a direct line of causality in LFL’s thought-process behind Rey not being a Skywalker and Finn being demoted - basically, that once Kylo became the only one of the new characters to fit a “children of the OT3” category, LFL immediately shuffled Rey into the “non-Skywalker” area and shuffled Finn out and into a purely token role.
     
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  21. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    That’s a circular argument - Kylo couldn’t become the only next-gen Skywalker until Rey was determined not to be one.

    I think it likely that Rey was made not-related so as to elevate Kylo and to allow a romance there, or at least a teased one.

    It used to be a common concern/belief that the best way to force - yes - “force” - fans to root for Kylo was to make Rey a nobody. In other words, the idea was that fans invested in the Skywalker family would have to support Kylo or be left with dust.

    It’s pretty shocking how open and direct some Kylo stans were about this.
     
  22. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    In the end, “stanning” is one of the worst things about fandom. In that world, these cease to be films and just become character fights with posses of fans on each side. The worst way to approach art, and also just…boring.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m guessing that was the point. It was not just Kylo stans in the fandom who had that mindset, it was LFL itself. They made Rey a non-Skywalker to elevate Kylo and push the narrative that we are supposed to root for him.
     
  24. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Such a poor decision. Though I don’t see it as an LFL decision. It was an RJ decision, and LFL let him roll with it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
  25. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Rey was never planned to be a Skywalker. Daisy Ridley has said as much. I dunno why people hang on to this idea this was the idea going into this trilogy.

    They probably thought it made Rey stand out if she was a new character. Representing the anyone can be a hero image that people love about Star Wars (i guess). And in theory that idea works fine. But for the Skywalker saga it works about as much as "they fly now", Rey burying the Skywalker sabers on Tatooine or a storm trooper turning good.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021