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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I say progressive in moving forward into new areas. To not do the expected. To make changes when he wants to evolve the story. He isnt tied down by what he had shown in TFA. Which is also a bit part of the PT hate. He had progressed star wars to something many felt they did not recognise.
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    As I said, I can’t speak to the PT hate because I don’t care and I liked the first two movies.

    So if you are still trying to argue that no one is allowed to criticize the ST because some random people some time criticized the PT, it’s working about as well as it did before.
     
  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    It needs to be acknowledged that not all “moving forward into new areas” is progressive - “progressive” requires movement in a positive direction, into new areas that are increases or improvements in one form or another.

    Lucas’s movement in ESB was into the positive area of intentional serialized storytelling on an epic scale - which is something some critics likely missed, since they were used to less ambitious, still self-contained sequels and weren’t ready for what amounted to merging Flash Gordon serials with Wagner’s operas.

    In both comparison and contrast, Lucas’s work on AOTC had some negative movements in acting and dialogue… but made up for it with much more positive movement in lore, plotting, and setting expansion - which is why it’s 20 years laters, and in spite of complaints about AOTC as a film, we’re still seeing cartoons and comics based off it’s plot points make money.

    But if we’re talking about Finn in TLJ, for instance, it’s not “progressive” because he’s only moving negatively on all levels - what little “new areas” he’s going to are new-to-him levels of insignificance, mockery, and unfortunate implications regarding how the most prominent black actor in the Disney era is treated.

    By the time TLJ’s over, Finn’s less developed, less significant, and less important to Rey - which has no real comparison to the OT; there, when Han became the love interest and Luke the hero, both *grew* into their new roles, instead of being reduced from their original ones.
     
  4. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    And others may have recognized it, while also seeing it as poorly written and/or dumb as a box of hammers.
     
  5. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002


    Good stuff.
     
    EHT and TheGhostOfZero like this.
  6. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    The ST are both cinematically and narratively regressive IMO. One can argue the relative merits of each entry over the other, but I certainly think given it's the 21st century, and given the 'diverse' label that DLF used for marketing, Rey, Finn and Rose were shockingly handled.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
  7. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    https://thedirect.com/article/star-wars-episode-9-script-original-john-boyega

    https://thedirect.com/article/jj-abrams-star-wars-finn-jedi


    I chuckle at Boyega not even saying Johnson's name.
     
  8. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    I really wish one of these people when they were interviewing RJ about Star Wars would address JB's complaints (plus the other regressive elements that have been mentioned time and time gain). I'm sure it would be more of the same in his response, but it bugs me that he never gets the tough questions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
  9. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I'm kinda perplexed that for a studio that seems to want to go for diversity, Leia was so back burnered in the 2 movies they could've used her in. I can kinda see TFA's potential reasoning, but I think TLJ has no such excuse, as far as I know, for certain.
     
  10. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    There definetly seems to be a somewhat willful ignorance of Boyega’s complaints specifically whenever Johnson gets interviewed about TLJ, as well as a staid refusal to bring up the issues with Reylo he introduced, even though Boyega’s comments have been publicized enough for that and even Star Wars Insider published that breakdown of how TLJ was a classic abusive relationship scenario.

    I suspect it’s simple tacit acknowledgement from everyone involved that there’s no good answer Johnson can really role out, no matter how sincere he may be - Jason Fry is the only LFL member I know of to try addressing the complaints by defending TLJ, and while he didn’t get burned for it exactly, LFL’s publicity department probably analyzed he only really gained negative attention from those who cared what he said.

    It’s also got to be something that LFL and most professional film dudes (award givers, critics, etc.) would really rather just not address, given the positive reputation they gave TLJ and Johnson otherwise spotless and rising career. Economically speaking, if you praised TLJ, you’re better making sure that if history does turn against it, there’s no risky quotes from you about it… and it would be harder to claim ignorance if you acknowledged Boyega’s criticism at all.

    I think both films are clearly trying to keep her off screen and largely out of focus compared to Han and Luke… but TLJ’s was a little bit sloppier, more “obligatory” in its execution, and worsened a bit by how little it managed to do for Luke and Leia’s one scene together. TFA gave her two-three scenes with Han, and at least had her as an active authority figure in the background.

    It’s also notable that she does more with Rey and Finn in TFA than she does in TLJ… which is very bad, since she wasn’t really doing almost anything with them even in TFA.
     
  11. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I imagine it’s because DLF don’t really give a damn about diversity i.e. it was just a marketing gimmick. With regards to Leia/Carrie specifically, I suspect it’s a little more complex given the balance they had to find… and Carrie’s health… but even then, the idea that Leia was going to be left till the last film (after Han and Luke got their shot) kind of speaks to DLF’s natural preference for the white male.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
  12. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Well not really. Leaving Leia till last could also be seen as leaving the best till last. they just did not get that last due to unfortunate events.

    Leia may have ended up the most impactful of the 3. Which probably would have had people complaining also.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
  13. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I think, if so, that speaks to their shortsightedness in them, for some reason, deciding that each of the movies would have random focus on a single OT character and not giving the character her due in the movie, especially considering her son's issues is a part of the conflict and she's left reeling from the death of Han, but these things are almost never a real issue or conflict for her, and, for little reason, they're given to Luke and Rey, more, one character that it's not as important to as Leia, and another that it has pretty much no real meaning to be personally engaged in that.
     
  14. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2013
    Finn is a better character throughout the ST than most give credit for, but there is a lot of missed opportunity.
    He was a really entertaining character in VII, and they were setting up so much for him. And then in VIII and IX most of that potential is thrown out the window. I didn't need Finn as a Jedi, but I would've enjoyed more lightsaber and force scenes with him. Maybe he could be like a non-Jedi lightsider like Ahsoka.
     
  15. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    I don't see the potential personally. Rey got her little flashback vision and talk with Maz offering some specialness to her. Finn just didn't have that. honestly him walking away from the first order was perhaps his biggest moment in episode 7, and then it stays fairly run around, pew pew, run around, pew pew.

    I don't think they wanted to do a stormtrooper rebellion because it ruins the fun of killing them. I mean in an early script of TROS it was said the storm troopers were all kids of the rebels who took down the death star. Palpatines revenge was to turn their children against them. Which if they wanted to do a rebellion, that would work. i think the issue is more that you can't have visuals like a the heroes pew pew'ing stormtroopers and have funny moments of them flying into mountains.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    That only works for people who view Star Wars as a long video game and not a story with sentient beings with different personalities taking sides in the struggle between good and evil. For the latter a stormtrooper rebellion is great; it shows people who had been coerced (actually coerced, not “people on the good side didn’t tell me how important I was every five seconds and so my feelings got hurt” coerced) to the evil side turning their back on it and joining the good side.

    The stormtroopers who didn’t join the rebellion can still fly into mountains.
     
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    It also would have acted as a nice reversal of the Order 66 moments - people loved the clone troopers, and still feel pangs of tragedy at their fate, so seeing new heroes pull their successors out of the arms of the baddies would have gotten people hyped.

    And yeah, audiences would have been utterly fine with seeing Stormtrooper vs Stromtrooper violence - aside from the way you can smell the hype on the possibility from Bad Batch or the residual nostalgia from the old Battlefornt II game, Finn’s popularity again proves that. For all that a minority hemmed and hawed about it “ruining” the stormtroopers as canon fodder, it’s clear the bulk of the audience and pretty much all Finn fans were fine with him still killing “evil” stormtroopers - and certainly would have been fine with seeing more of that.

    It’s an odd perspective to argue that would ruin the fun when simultaneously we’re supposed to think that Kylo being presented as a love interest doesn’t screw up the fun of him as a villain…
     
  18. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Not really. Kylo is in the same league as Vader in terms of villain. While the stormtroopers have become cannon fodder jokes. The moment you humanise them it makes it less fun to watch them fly into mountains or get hit by a bolder (The Mandalorian), And if you go by the idea they were brainwashed, then what does that mean when the good guys are killing them and WOO'ing about it?
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Vader was never presented as a love interest, not in the OT when he was Vader, and by the time we were told we were “supposed to” sympathize with him, he was a few minutes from overthrowing Palpatine.

    Very different from our being told for two entire movies that we are supposed to believe that Kylo was not actually a bad guy and that it made sense for Rey to view him as “Ben” and make goo goo eyes at him.
     
  20. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Not only is Vader a serious character and villain in ANH/TESB, where Kylo isn't in his movies, but Kylo's also propositioned as romantic potential for the character TFA set up to be the main character.

    Who said the imperial stormtroopers were brainwashed or had to be in the OT setting?
     
  21. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    …Do you not cheer at watching a Sith Lord get beaten? Or a villain losing, period?

    I mean, yes, crappier writing on stormtroopers makes them a point of comedy at times.

    But we’re talking about what would make a good heroic story here. And Star Wars fans like seeing bad guys lose, whether it’s stormtroopers, Sith Lords, battle droids, generals, whatever.

    Are you killing civilians, helping to kill civilians, or simply supporting the killing of civilians? If yes, than fans want to see you get beaten.

    Which is why Finn’s popular and fun with people who don’t look to inject false moral equivalency in a story, while Ben Solo can only have fans if an exclusively false moral equivalency is applied in his favor. I mean, most of us enjoyed the beat down Luke gave Vader in ROTJ until the film pulled Luke back because of the darkside, and most of us enjoyed seeing Obi-Wan and Yoda kill clonetroopers after Order 66.

    If you do evil.., Star Wars fans want to see you pay for it.

    Finn refused to do evil, and then started making those who would pay for it. The same logic applies to a possible stormtrooper rebellion.

    And the problem with Kylo is that his story is about denying evil should be punished, even socially.
     
  22. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Whats any of that got to do with anything? Neither Vader or Kylo are saturday morning villains. Both are in the position to be more than that.

    The ST troopers are said to be brainwashed. Although its only a passing subtle mention in TFA and is never mentioned again.

    But the moment you make that a thing, you kinda have to write with that insight in mind. Which they don't. they are still faceless canon fodder.

    If Finn had been against killing the other troopers, or maybe felt guilty. perhaps we could say there was some arc there. Maybe he knows people in the first order and wants to save them? But any thought of that was thrown away in TFA because he really does not give a crap.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
  23. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    It's the crux of what defines the approach to the characters and how one may be criticized vs the other, as a villain.
    The ST stormtroopers aren't the OT stormtroopers.

    It's not thrown away. It's just not done. One movie's lackings don't make it so the other movies after it are let off the hook.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
  24. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015


    I certainly don't blame him. He is not alone.
     
  25. UnlimitedSarcasm

    UnlimitedSarcasm Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2021
    I don't care about extra materials that tie into the ST (the latest being the Shadow of the Sith trying to explain the utter stupidity of the Wayfarer, Exegol, Ochi and zombie Palps), but if Disney wanted to make something where Finn spends the year between TLJ and TROS doing the Stormtrooper rebellion, that would make sense, and be cool. And that way when we see Finn being okay with killing Stormtroopers in TROS, we'd know its because they made the conscious choice to be part of a fascistic regime, or were different troopers than the brainwashed FO ones, because most of those people left, and had to be replaced.

    And of course it would be a way for Finn's promise in TFA to be realized.