Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Bracca is said to have been "the site of several battles during the Clone Wars", so these are probably crashed ships like MercenaryAce suggested. It's worth noting that Dawn of Rebellion claims that, while all the Arquitens cruisers that survived the Clone Wars were upgraded into the imperial model, all of them were eventually scrapped and replaced by brand new ones. Presumably the same happened with Venators, which would mean that the one seen in the Darth Vader comics was probably built under the Empire.

I'm not sure the SE TIE is landed on its wings, you can see two rails on the ceiling that seem to line up with them.
I used to really like the FO's TIE racks, but the one issue with them is that they unlike imperial racks that they don't allow quick deployement of all fighters (as seen in Rogue One). In order for the next fighter to launch you'd have to wait for the previous one to have left the rack, the pilot to get in and the ship to be start and take off.

 

Case in point, the Rebellion having Calamari cruisers in ROTJ was to showcase how the organization had grown from one part of the conflict to the other.

 

Oh yeah they should be staggered better. Though I don't think they are incapable of taking off, it is just not as easy as flying straight forward out of the hangar. They would need to hover up slightly then leave, not that bad on time, but yeah every second counts so staggering could make it perfect

As for the SE, I had thought it was hanging at first, but it could be on a platform or something, as the only place it could be grabbed from is right on the tip of the wings which seems impractical and counter to how other TIEs are suspended. It seems they are usually held up by the arms between the cockpit and wings. RO does not give a super clear image of that, but both hangars we see do seem to indicate it



Also something I noticed is the Imp hangars have the same problem the FO one does, the first row needs to take off for the other one to get out easily. They still can if they drop before the row in front of them, but they would need to avoid anything on the deck including shuttles and any other TIEs dropping down.

Btw every single time I look at RO screencaps I see new details I love, just......god how did we deserve this movie?

Unrelated, but I just realized that the attachment on the Gozanti allows for the pilots to use it as a chute to get into the fighter

 

As far as the first TIEs having to launch before the ones behind can....IIRC...TIEs are not assigned...they are first come first serve. As pilots rush to them they go to the first ones first.

As far as what we did to deserve RO....we waited a long time for a great SW movie.

 

Ah yes Rebels' Visual Guide confirmed they rarely fly the same fighter twice. However wouldn't that then be the same for the FO? I know they are better with their equipment, but even then their ships are very standardized. So the initial critique of not being able to deploy all at once would still be equally true of both factions, be it fair or unfair; as they can just get in the front one and launch or they are inhibited if everyone gets in at the same time since they will still need to take turns. Either way the efficiency is not grossly inhibited either way, particularly since no matter what the launch is done in order regardless of who gets into which day on a given day.

@Sarge what are your professional thoughts on Imp takeoff protocol?

 

They probably go to an assigned place...squadron leaders up front, and then place in squadron...the fighters are loaded in randomly as final prep is completed after landing.

As far as getting out of the hanger...drill, drill, drill.

 

Well sure, and that makes the FO hangar fine. After all IRL pilot take turns taking off, so the Imps and FO have it even easier, get into your fighter, and each row takes off freeing the next to rush out and so on.

 

The owners' workshop manual gives at a clear image of the racks and yeah, they are held by the arms. I wouldn't be surprised if the design for the Rogue One racks took inspiration from the one holding the bomber in the OT.

Oh yeah, that definitively wouldn't be able to all leave at the same time but at least all pilots would already be in their crafts ready for take off, while with the First Order design the other pilots would have to wait for the previous one to slide down, take off and leave to even enter the next one. This wouldn't be a problematic strategy if the TIE/fo was the superior starfighter that material reference wants us to believe it is, while the movies show us that they're not that effective even in large numbers.

 

I can't tell how they specifically can't get into a TIE till the other take off, not disagreeing, I am just unsure how they get into them specifically with the FO hangar

 

Those hangars reminded me of a Death Star detail I saw. There appears to be almost like a silhouette view of a random hangar inside the Death Star trench, next to one of the turbolaser cannons:

The things hanging down almost look like those racks, with the arms withdrawn up. Also, a TIE sitting on the ground to the left and a proto-AT-TE to the right of the racks.

 

Oh man that's a great screencap. Never realized they detailed the hangars in the trench

 

Speaking of turbolasers, in ANH we have those scenes of the Imperial gunners with their guns inside some sort of tower or bunker, and they're shooting through these gun ports. The movie seems to make it look like these are the same as those turbolaser turrets, but there's no way that can be right. What's the point of the gun ports anyway? There's no way you can rotate the whole structure (assuming it can rotate at all) as fast as a regular turret.

 

The key is balance. Being too top heavy in terms of larger capital ships can be as bad as being too dependent on smaller ones. Furthermore, the needs of a wartime navy will differ from a peacetime one. Multi-role cruisers and frigates have the most utility, IMO, in both circumstances. However, keeping a strategic reserve of big heavy hitters is a strategic necessity. It’s a reminder to would be opponents that you can and will hit hard if provoked.

Now, in terms of day to day operations, corvettes and carriers seem like an ideal solution. Corvettes are quick, decently armed, and capable of patrolling space lanes, deterring pirates, etc. Dedicated carriers are basically a cheap way to deploy and maintain fighters. A Quasar Fire is way cheaper for routine deployments that require fighter support vs. sending in MC80’s or Star Destroyers.

Again, the key is BALANCE. Furthermore, a mindset that allows you to update and modernize your navy to meet the needs of the time. It can and should change.

—Adm. Nick

 

Same in RoTS on the Sep ships.

 

It's like poetry, it rhymes.

 

This is kind of where my love (obsession??) with the mid range ships...Vindicator-class, Dreadnought-class, Victory-class....that 600m-900m length that can bring some heavy guns and fighters. I have said it before and will continue to...you could get more done with 6 Vindicators than you can with one ImpStar.

Having said that....I go back to my point about scrapping the ImpStars...makes no sense if the ships are able to fight. After the win they could sell them off to PSFs or scrap them for parts.

 

Yeah but guess my point was that, whereas in real life aircraft carriers replaced battleships, that hasn't happened in Star Wars. X-wings can't kill Star Destroyers on their own...if they could then all those capital ships would instantly become obsolete. It's more like the 1920's navy where carriers were used more in a support role while battleships were still the frontline ships.

 

Star Wars being extra unique due to most major capital ships being battleship/carrier hybrids, vs being dedicated to either aforementioned platform.

—Adm. Nick

 

As @Iron_lord says, the rack is "best practice", but wing-landing is also possible. I'd always vaguely assumed that when TIEs land "on their wings", they would - at least under ideal circumstances - keep the antigrav/repulsor tech running, so that they aren't actually carrying the weight of the spaceframe on the wings?

Works for me. Spoilers for a recent book behind the cut:

Spoiler

Alphabet Squadron explicitly mentions a captured ISD that the NR did put into use - which was then promptly captured off them by unknown forces, assumed to be Imperial holdouts but not definitively identified...

Not many of those Japanese ships were in genuine working condition, and many of the ones that were more-or-less intact were used as transports for a while before being scrapped...

But yes, perhaps they're scrapping wrecks - something we've already seen on Jakku...

As @Long Snoot says, that TIE might be hanging off the rails we see above?

Or given that this is a landing hangar, is that Jerjerrod's shuttle?

That design may look neat (in more senses than one), but is perhaps less practical for maintenance because of the complexity of the automated rack system concealed outside the hangar. Does allow the type to carry lots of TIEs, though.

And as @Long Snoot points out, the compactness may also get in the way of speed of launch...

As @Ton_G says, a squadron of CSA IRDs doesn't need that much space - they're 8.5m long and the baseline space-only model is very slender. The "troop barges" and "shuttles" may be similarly minimal. If every vehicle needs 9m by 3m on a rack, you can fit three rows of six in a space less than 30m long by 20 m wide... they could easily go beneath the forward part of the "engine box", or beneath the "neck", or beneath the command module. Or if you space them out more, they could go on racks running the length of the ship's underside...

Agreed. The system is compact, and sophisticated, and looks both impressive and tidy, but lacks both speed and simplicity.

The Rebels having a fleet-in-being isn't completely the same as the Rebels using multi-role capital ships like the ISD everywhere. More on this below in my reply to Admiral.

Also, though, there's an ambivalence to that increase in strength - the question of whether there's a risk that the Rebellion will eventually become too like the Empire was a theme of the old Bantam novels (and perhaps less explicitly even the OT), the admiration with which Major Sorannan regards the Fifth Fleet at the end of Tyrant's Test being a very good example of the ambiguity.

The difference is that the arrangement we see at Scarif releases fighters by the squadron, and if well-timed, can launch each row within moments of each other, or perhaps even simultaneously, whereas the First Order pilots apparently need to scramble into their cockpits, then turn and get out of the hangar past each other, then the rack shunts down and the next group scrambles aboard. The whole system is a mess - the pre-reboot version had the advantage that the TIEs were presumably boarded further back up the rack, and certainly launched directly forward - either into space from an exterior hatch on a cruiser, or down the axis of an exit route.

Oh, that's really neat.

My longstanding fan-theory is that these are "saluting guns", old-fashioned weapons placed on an open deck for ceremonious crew-served firing... that are being pressed into improvise use to try to shoot at X-wings because Tarkin's technological terror has terrible flak arrangements.

The idea that the whole emplacement rotates is an interesting one - as you say, this seems over-complex and underperforming, but might work if this was not intended as a practical gun position at all.

Alternatively... in practical terms, what we can see these guns can cover a relatively limited zone directly in front of the emplacement with an intense volume of fire - without going into detail, I suspect that this is an attempt to get around the whole problem of "aiming fast enough", by not aiming much at all, and instead having a huge number of "fixed" guns like these, which simply wait for the X-wing to fly onto them, and then spam crossfire into their zone...

But even five hundred five-gun emplacements - the number suggested by the total of 2,500 individual guns - might have not been nearly enough. Are they restricted to cover specific area like hangars?

This is a really good point, but I think there is also room for contrasting ideas of what works best - the Empire aims to "balance" all the roles on a single large hull, whereas the Alliance "balances" smaller and more specialised stand-alone units like gunships and fighter squadrons.

Similarly, there are going to be disputes over what "heavy hitters" means. You will no doubt see this differently from Grand Moff Tarkin.

I think those look more like broadside heavy-hitters - they evoke the guns of sailing warships and ironclads, and the rationale behind them would be that "fixed" emplacements are a simpler way to concentrate the armament...

Also, this:

You win the thread.

Absolutely. The Vindicator is one of my favourite STAR WARS designs, not only as a concept, but also because the ship is beautiful.

Like I said, the implication I took is that the parts they contain are more immediately relevant than the ships themselves...

In theory, the TIE Fighters should be able to stop the X-wings. I increasingly think that the TIEs are more important to the way the Empire fights than we normally realise - forming perimiters, carrying sensors forward, responding to threats. The ISD is a command platform and hangar bay, which also happens to carry cruiser guns for completeness' sake.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Oh yeah, going back to TIE fighter landing...even if a TIE lands on its wings, the pilot can't get in or out unless he has a ladder of the appropriate height. So once again, you can't land this thing except at a base that's specifically equipped to operate TIEs.

 

I just love the look of this ship. A recolor of Rucklin's Racer that was used as background in Yeager's shop in The Core Problem. To me this show is just demanding its own cross section book to give us all the stats for all these ships.

 

I really like the resistance ships.

 

@Thrawn McEwok Wait.....I just now realized what you said about the hangar being pointing the other direction as the fighters. Who does that? I am fine with the slight delay with the way they are stored, I can defend the other stuff, but that...ok yeah that is just really dumb. How many times you think TIEs collided when turning to exit as another TIE launched?

My mistake is I presumed the TIEs could be launched without needing to go one at a time and wait for the the rack to lower, looking at the conveyor in the CS it seems way slower than just placing them in overhead racks, on the floor, or in chutes.

The book just says they can launch faster than the Empire without any specifics, I guess the idea is they have more hangars overall, but honestly it seems to mean nothing if the launches take far longer to lower one fighter at a time. I guess they could form into a squadron based on the first to launch from all racks being combined, but that still means all racks active at once and perfectly in tandem.

The Resurgent's port and starboard hangars are not their primary ones, though the main flight deck has not been shown any solid detail outside of BFII and even then it is not like we can glean much.
That exposed section in the front has several small bays with open tops, aside from the problem of not launching forward, and the clutter of generators and the bars connecting the hull; these small bays at least have the advantage of deploying all at once.

Literally the only good image I could find was at 4:01 in this vid, and its one of the smaller ones, plus I think they made the scale of the hangars smaller and the generators bigger for the sake of gameplay since there seemed to be more room when Finn and Poe flew through there in TFA.


I really wish the cross sections gave more info on that section. Alas maybe Resistance season 2 will

Btw I checked out the Supremacy and they went right back to the overhead, with various TIEs on the ground, likely under maintenance.


However this might just be how they had to store them for the factory, with there being other launch hangars without the clutter. The ICS lists this as a TIE assembly line, so I assume the ones flying are just being tested or are security. Honestly despite 4 pages of the behemoth, I still can't find the hangars on the ship proper, nor where Kylo launched from.

My biggest hope for the war is the Supremacy to be intact and even if not mobile yet, to serve as the FO's capital. Any ship that can store an SD is epic imo

Imp protocol for landing, leap and pray you don't break your legs.

 

I do hope some additional clarification is made on the MC85's armament; specifically, whether the (rather pathetic) numbers listed in the TLJ ICS applies to all MC85s or is unique to the post-mothball Raddus.

나의 SM-G960N 의 Tapatalk에서 보냄

 

You know about the famous disappearing ladder on the X-wing, right?



Exactly how that appears and disappears as required has never been explained (my guess is into the storage hold beneath the rear of the fuselage, but the point is that handwavium boarding ladders are a thing).

You might get two off at once, but not the third one. And then there's the question of how you get in and out of the cockpit. Without going into too much detail, one possibility would be that boarding and disembarking happens elsewhere on the line - these are TIE Fighters which are already crewed-up.

Yes, that requires a cutscene where the rogue stormtrooper and the escaped prisoner knock on the hatch and trick the crew out before taking their places in the cockpit, but I think that's acceptable...

The system is faster not because the high-tech racking is actually a better launch design, but because the crew are already in the cockpit.

Yeah, I tried to squint at this a while back. ICS shows a sizeable parking area above the open deck, while Battlefront has them rising up on lifts from a lower level. The TIE capacity of the is side bays is pretty impressive, though - 64 TIEs just in the visible slots, and a lot more racked up behind... if nothing else, compact capacity is a virtue of that layout...

So they did.

I'm guessing somewhere along the front of the superstructure, on the face of one of the "terracing" levels? Later in the movie, we see another of those big cannons in one of the superstructure notches in front of the command tower - ICS shows two pairs there, and ten of them ("turbolaser towers") along the second-lowest structure level near the bows. My best random guess is that the hangars are between the bow guns.

- The Imperial Ewok