main
side
curve

Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Shelf of Shame Winner star 6 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I don't think they'd be careless enough to go with a fake word, so I'd go with the former.
     
    RogueWhistler and JABoomer like this.
  2. JABoomer

    JABoomer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Looks like it!

     
    MercenaryAce and Alpha-Red like this.
  3. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Shelf of Shame Winner star 6 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    [​IMG]

    Also, he just says "...which was called, eventually, the Executor". So maybe that doesn't actually prove anything?
     
  4. gat-65b

    gat-65b Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2022
    So, one thing that's struck me with the new media coming out is the lack of emphasis on ships in general (nothing new of course, but stands out as more stuff is produced) Which makes me wonder if a project in Star Wars mainly about spaceship combat is viable (mainly referring to liveaction/animated, as Alphabet Squadron does exist). I'll ask the question, then, is this something that could be commercially attractive to Disney? Not in terms of whether we may want it (I'm assuming most in this thread would) but would it be likely to succeed/worth the effort? I think interest in subgenres of Star Wars waxes and wanes with the era. I have a distinct impression looking at the conglomerate of media that general audience interest may have been higher in the 80s and even the 90s with miltary hardware as an entertainment. I know if I were to ask a dozen other people that may enjoy Star Wars what they think about the ships I would be met with blank stares.

    I know in past iterations of this argument on this thread, the main view has been that we get what we get and such is our lot in life. But looking at other franchises such as Warhammer 40k and Gundam and even Star Trek, they are able to make the audience invest in their military hardware (be it ships, models, miniatures) to provide a valuable revenue stream. Hence the incentive to highlight these more in their media then Star Wars has been doing. Now I tend to think Disney has enough smart market analysts on staff that their not leaning heavily into the space aspect of Star Wars recently is based on the fact that it WON'T sell. Or at least in the numbers to devote more effort than say, Jedi or Bounty Hunter/Fringe properties. But sometime suprises do happen - Top Gun being the most recent; sometimes the next hot thing is waiting to be discovered. The other side of this, of course, is Star Wars is a bigger franchise than those I mentioned (and Disney doesn't want to alienate the mainstream fanbase) I wonder, however if giving this niche within Star Wars a project or two would be valuable enough to the company amongst it's other output.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  5. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    I have long thought a movie that is pure space combat would be interesting to see. Basic premise is that he Empire is assembling a fleet to attack the Rebel fleet but the Rebels find out about it and attack first.90-120 minutes of just capital ships slugging it out with starfighters dog fighting around and between them.
     
    Sean_Connery and gat-65b like this.
  6. gat-65b

    gat-65b Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2022
    See something like that would be a dream for me (or in the Disney era I've thought of something like a season long show about a task force or fleet charged with liberating a sector. Works for either post ROTJ or even post TROS - Clone Wars not quite as well, but still something could be managed). Or to steal another idea from one of the aformentioned franchises, an expiremental fighter squadron charged with realtime first use of newest weapons in the field (an excuse to bring in new ships and not wonder why they aren't all over the rest of the franchise. Plus desperate times means rapid development cycles needed)

    I keep thinking if other properties can manage something similar, why not Star Wars? It's odd that the first and third movies of the whole saga ended with what were the most impressive space battles on screen ever at the time but nowadays evenn something like Orville outclasses Star Wars on what's put on screen. As I mentioned before, the only thing I can think is Disney has crunched the numbers and doesn't feel worthwhile devoting resources vs other projects (as much as I may like said other projects) But, purely from a mercantile perspective, those franchises have seen returns worth the investment, and I have to think Star Wars could as well (to get people to buy, say, custom liveried X-wings from a new show or the newest ship on screen).
     
    MercenaryAce and Sean_Connery like this.
  7. Armchair_Admiral

    Armchair_Admiral Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Been a while since I last showed up in this here Fleet Junkie thread, but your post got me thinking nostalgically.....

    Yeah I would say the original Top Gun movie making fighter jets cool again, the USA's ultimate victory in the Cold War, the first Gulf War, and the emergence of educational cable channels (like OG History Channel) and VHS tapes all contributed to what I'd definitely consider to be a golden age of glorifying military hardware. I'm pretty sure I have an ancient collection of Desert Storm trading cards buried in either my closet or garage somewhere. And of course, the still-young computer gaming industry was able to support numerous flight-sim developers back in the 1990s. Lucasfilm Games was into that WWII-sim market of course via the team that eventually became Totally Games... and we all know where that led.

    The 1980s-90s was also a time when fantasy and sci-fi properties like SW and D&D could get away with building lore for its own sake, since the target audience was more niche than it is today. D&D was particularly infamous for producing so much worldbuilding for its RPG settings that it was almost impossible to the content creators to keep it all straight. Of course nowadays, people now complain that D&D only recycles old worldbuilding without barely ever contributing new material... which is kinda also the case with FFG not doing as much to pick up the worldbuilding slack as WEG once did.

    Back to the actual topic: there might have been a time in the 1990s where a significant portion of the SW fanbase truly invested in the military hardware, helped along by both factors I mentioned above. Folks like us became super-niche though once the Prequels rolled around and the clear majority proved to be more invested in that whole Jedi/Sith nonsense. Hmmph... stupid laser-swords. Maybe if that supposed Rogue Squadron movie ever gets off the ground (and it does reasonably well), we'll get at least one Disney+ show out of it.....
     
  8. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Doesn't help there are a million youtube videos nit-picking the realism of space combat in all sci-fi, and particularly Star Wars.

    Also an increasing cultural resistance to glorification of war in general...to which Star Wars has played a nuanced game of having fighting, but trying not to make the actually fighting look too fun...just all the stuff around it is fun.

    A fully fleshed out space combat film with extensive sequences would have to check lots of boxes.

    Realistic feeling, but not with overly realistic consequences.

    Technical, but not over the heads of the viewership

    Takes itself seriously, but allows for interspersed humor amongst the fighting.

    In the end, while a story of weapons of war, it focuses more on people who use them.

    It could all be done, it's just a careful dance that will be harshly reviewed for the slightest perceived missteps.

    You know, like all Star Wars properties.
     
    MercenaryAce and gat-65b like this.
  9. gat-65b

    gat-65b Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2022
    The super niche nature of us has been my suspicion, honestly just thought I'd throw it out there to gather other opinions.

    I agree with the cultural resistance part. I didn't want to get into it because it's a nasty subject to broach in the other direction but I wonder if the return to a Cold War stance/active hostilities will awaken more interest in fictional military (as sanitized as Star Wars always presnt it), as horrible as the events are in our real world are.. The Cold War era spawned fictional stand ins for bad guys such as the Empire and Cobra of GI JOE. Also, yes, the characters would be paramount to its success in the mainstream. On the other hand, I feel that there may be room to pander to our ultra-niche group while still featuring some of the elements you mention. Like I floated in my idea, think Star Trek instead the mission of our crew isn't to explore but to liberate. In the past, merchandising was such a big part of franchise success. I just wonder if flogging new Star Wars ships (be they to kids or higher-end collectors) could subisidize such a project and be worth it. Gundam sells its models by making people want them. Star Trek (albeit more limited) makes sure to show new ships and manages to have people buy the collectibles. Star Wars in the past I think could have gotten away with this. Maybe no longer but if the others can, why not? More specifically, why not IN ADDITION to those laser-sword wielding monk shows?

    I am rambling, but I've actually felt a return to space battles with some actual attention put into them (ie. I love the Falcon, but NO MORE TIEs chasing freighters - ever) could be the surprise wow factor general audiences didn't know they were missing. Superhero movies honestly have Star Wars outdone in crazy feats humans can pull off in the liveaction realm (with more colourful outfits to boot). Force users are never going to be as lights and explosions as what modern effects have superheroes pull off (which is a good thing to me, but less oomph for the general audience). But no one is doing space battles as big as they could be done right now. Perhaps not worth a few hundred million dollars to gamble on but maybe a path for Star Wars to wow the audience again and provide something different than other blockbusters.
     
  10. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Shelf of Shame Winner star 6 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    That's what Homeworld is for :p
     
    MercenaryAce and Chrissonofpear2 like this.
  11. Chrissonofpear2

    Chrissonofpear2 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2020
    The first ship looks kind of like an H-60 Tempest had a baby with the thruster assembly of an Arquitens, to me...;)
     
    MercenaryAce and Grevious_Coward like this.
  12. Sarchet

    Sarchet Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2016
    My long-desired hope is for someday to get a series written as in-universe looks at different ships/lines. Like an "X-Wing" book would have a chapter on precursor starfighters, a section on the T-65, one for the T-70, and one for the T-85 with 3-view drawings, 5-view artwork for aces, cutaways, loadout shots, the whole nine yards like a lot of aircraft reference books do. Never going to happen but I can dream.
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Rebel Starfighter Manual by Haynes isn't exactly this, but it comes close.
     
    Alpha-Red likes this.
  14. Sarchet

    Sarchet Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2016
    It's probably as close as we can realistically expect to get. A fan-made version could be amazing, but the biggest obstacle to that would probably be finding someone who'd be willing to risk the Mouse's wrath to bind a proper hardcover.
     
  15. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    So, the latest X-wing Miniatures has made an interesting addition to the Battle of Yavin.

    Apparently, Iden Versio and Sigma Squadron were flying TIE interceptors at Yavin. This means that they were off-screen.

    Kind of makes sense, good as Black Squadron is reputed to be, six against twenty-nine is just rather low.
     
  16. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Shelf of Shame Winner star 6 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Is it still six against twenty-nine? Man, you'd think with the reboot they would've changed that.
     
  17. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Six on-screen TIE fighters launch against Red Squadron, of which we see two destroyed. Then Vader launches with two other TIE fighters. Considering that a standard Imperial squadron is twelve (which remains canon), four others must have been launched late or following. So twelve vs. twenty-nine doesn't even the odds much for the Empire to take out 27 out of 30 (even if Vader got 3 Y-wings and 3 X-wings easily). It is interesting they added TIE interceptors but canon had them circa 2 BBY and A-wings circa 4 BBY.
     
    Alpha-Red likes this.
  18. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Shelf of Shame Winner star 6 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Speaking of off-screen ships, do we know how many Rebel fighters survived in Legends?
     
  19. RogueWhistler

    RogueWhistler Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2021
    There's this old SWFA analysis, although I believe there were twenty-two X-wings visible in ANH, not twenty.

    As far as characters, there's:
    Luke Skywalker (X-wing)
    Wedge Antilles (X-wing)
    Keyan Farlander (Y-wing)
    Hamo Blastwell (believed KIA)
    Sam Raider
    Ernek Marskan
    Rookiee One (X-wing)
    Ru Murleen (X-wing)
    Merrick Simms (X-wing)
    Thurlow Harris (X-wing)
    Jake Farrell (A-wing)
    X2 (X-wing)

    The thirty Rebel ships total is a bit suspect, between the A-wings present in video games and a discrepancy in the number of surviving Y-wings.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2022
    Chrissonofpear2 and Alpha-Red like this.
  20. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    This is not supported by the Yavin scene in the Battlefront II: Inferno Squad novel, which is written from Iden's POV and repeatedly states that she is flying a "TIE fighter" and strongly implies it is a pretty standard issue TIE/ln rather than something like an interceptor. To whatever extent it is important to know what kind of ship Versio was flying, that would be my canonical source over anything FFG claims.
    It does, but Vader was with them, and he'd later prove himself capable of decimating two squadrons of Rebel fighters entirely on his own at Vrogas Vas, so from that perspective the odds were actually pretty even.
     
  21. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Thus leading to the issue of Sigma Squadron vs. Black Squadron.

    Canon and Legends as a whole seems to liking the idea of more survivors on both sides and then contradicts most.

    In Legends, more Rebel survivors then on-screen.

    In Canon, Iden Versio happening to being there and Darth Vader hiding out in the debris before being picked up rather then engaging the hyperdrive and leaving the system. And don't get me started on the Fortitude and the Daala's cheap knock-off Zahra.

    They add and contradict.
     
  22. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I thought that the film itself confirmed there were 30 ships?

    Maybe?
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There's room for "a couple had already been shot down by that point" - but this may be pushing it.
     
  24. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    I mean, off-screen a Rebel Lucrehulk and a few dozen X-Wings tried to Leeroy Jinkins the Death Star. I'd love to see that put to screen some day.
     
  25. RogueWhistler

    RogueWhistler Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2021
    Lieutenant Tanbris announces a count of thirty, and we see that many on approach, but X-Wing adds at least two "off-screen" A-wings. My headcanon solution is that the A-wing prototypes needed more time to be spaceworthy, and launched late in the battle after the initial approach and Tanbris' count. This is sort of supported by Rebel Assault, where Jake Farrell's A-wing shows up at the last moment to echo the Falcon's arrival in the film.

    There's also the Y-wing issue, where we have pilots for all eight onscreen ships, seven of which are casualties, but two Y-wings escape the Death Star in X-Wing. Either there were more than eight Y-wings, or, my preference, the eighth Y-wing lasted long enough to see the Death Star die but was destroyed by debris or a surviving TIE.