Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

FTeik: later?

IH: New here, perhaps.
New to this debate, not even close.

This debate has raged for the better part of the last decade and I have taken part in more than my fair share.

I know; me too. Not, obviously, in the same circles at you (at a guess... you'd be - O'Leary? Or am I amusingly wide of the mark?); and not for quite as long as people like Poe and Saxton: the earliest opinions by myself I can find are on RASSM in May 1998, in a thread started by Poe. For the record, my opinion has gone through several evolutions and reevaluations in the interim... I was actually agreeing with them on a lot of stuff back then...

Everything has been done over and over again, for instance?
The generally accepted size of the Death Star II is 900km in Diameter, Executor?s Length at 17.6 km, and the Falcon?s length at ~55 meters.
We know that the Empire had the resources and manufacturing capabilities to build Billions of Star Destroyers if it wished.
Etc?

Generally accepted? Among fans? Among certain fans? In canon? Or among certain fans and creeping into canon? The "generally accepted" size of the Ex used to be five miles, and some people are still happy with a 160km DS2 - I'm sure you wouldn't place much stock by the mere fact that those figures are/were "generally accepted"...

And "we know"? Based on what? I'm curious... I see only claims based on hypotheses that tend to ignore the actual, empirical evidence. At the very least, I fear there's a willingness among some fans to settle for speculative (and often high) figures, rather than cautiously noting a range of possibility and a "bottom line"...

Heck, I know I can have fun with hypotheses and insane theories too, but I do recognize what I'm doing (most of the time - Ben Skywalker's illegitimacy I take way too seriously )

Also, never tell Wayne Poe, Michael Wong, or Curtis Saxton they are wrong, it?s a big no-no. You?ll have so many loyal fans jumping at you, well, lets say you?ll be heavily outnumbered?

So what?

They don't like it? They have uncritical, unquestioning fans of their own? *yawn*

Those factors form elements of a rational defense of their arguments how exactly?

I have no problem with you trying to support your friends, and I fully admit I can make my own mistakes, too - not least a robustness in my words that can come over arrogant too often; but I'm a furry wee thing really, though - I just don't kow-tow to dogma much.

Call it a principle?

It is generally understood that FX errors do not count as Canon, and are rationalized as such and dismissed. It is also recognized that, as there is no dialogue as to the size of vessels in SW, we accept the Visual depictions.

"Generally understood"? Meaning what, exactly? A process used by some fans to define their arguments? Why accept the (inconsistent) visuals, rather than WEG? And how do you determine what is an "error", and what is not?

The Executor did not bankrupt the Empire; indeed it was not even close to that actuality. The G-Level Canon indicating an Imperial economy capable of supporting two Death Star Projects and an Imperial Navy contradicts every statement made to that effect.

Again, how, exactly? The G-level canon indicates a range of possibility, and precise meaning must be refined with reference to specific statements, C-canon and G-canon alike. You don't just chose whatever point in the potential range of meaning appeals to you and then dismiss the C-canon because it doesn't fit...

Though personally, I have no problem with Pellaeon's statement in Darksaber being hyperbole; in point of fact, I have no problems with Darksaber being a biased New Republic docu-drama...

The yield on the Rendil Dreadnought batteries is less than the standard Heavy Cannons on an Imperator-class.
Dreadnoughts are armed with, at best, some form of medium Turbolaser.
Remember, Iblis was forced to refit his Dreadnoughts to oppose Thrawn?s Destroyers, and e

 

Edited: That wasnt supposed to be posted...

 

The isds reactor is spherical and considered a solar ionization reactor, 'of that type' probably just refers to the specific design and not the overall technology. Since the hoth/procurator/praetor (whichever) reactor was cylindrical it isn't to much of a stretch to think that a cylindrical reactor is more space efficient in a proportionally narrow hulled ship like the SSD


if its revaluation (IE CSA to IMP cred) I want the exchange rates


The IH arrived with the rest of the seppie fleet afaik, and the space battle was going on for hours before open circle arrived (so the movie is the last 20 minutes of a day long battle) The IH was raked by a venstar before losing some repulsors and then boxed into a low orbit by the carracks and dreadnaughts, we don't really know how much damage it recieved in the time it took grevious to get to low orbit, the shields to fail, for him to steal the chancellor and fight the jedi and then get back on board and wait for open circle to arrive, convievably in the battle the IH was getting shot at a lot since I beleive only one of its sister ships was there to draw fire (anakin and obiwan knew instantly which ship design was grevious's, this was probably communicated quite readly to the entire republic forces) granted we don't know if the clone troopers had a preprogrammed reason to not critically damage the ship until palps got his dog and pony show done.

in the essential chronology the dreadnaught is shown with its gun blisters open, if the barrel size is any indication than the dreads heavy double TLs are much weaker than the venstars main guns (the venstars guns being probably a class weaker than the ISD I's main guns) if you want to go by RPG ratings just for fun a dreads guns are 7Ds and a venstars are officially 8ds (though strangely enough they are statted like they are a 5 gun battery (8d10x5), so individually they are more like 10D's)

interesting to note the provie has 102 launchers with 16 torps each, each of those equivalent to a 4d TL battery, thats a lot of ouch even for a ship that has been horribly castrated.

 

>>>But as for the seats--I'm sure the seats weren't specially constructed at that instant. After all, Pestage used one of the Emperor's old throne rooms--who says that the Tribunal wasn't using a meeting place of the former Ruling Council? It doesn't indicate that there were more than three in the Tribunal.<<<

Actually, Mandatory Retirement #1 shows other people on the council, not just seats. So in the beginning, it wasn't just a Tribunal it would seem. Perhaps the three made a grab for power and the others let them do it, knowing Iceheart would take them down. Its possible that they (including Ars Drangor, IIRC) were recalled to Byss afterwards.

 

The Republic pre-CW was seriously defanged. Its Judicial Department's largest heavy hitter was the ancient Dreadnaught-class (Cloak of Deception). The bigger ships were found in local fleets, but where short-range; long-range big mamma ships were not to be again seen (publicly) until the Military Creation Act 22 BBY, at which time they started coming out everywhere in a rush. Prior to the demilitarization of the Republic, we know they had empployed very large warships, such as the Invincible-class. During the 1000-year peace between Ruusan and Geonosis, the Republic had no true military, only the Judicial Department, the main purpose of which seems to have been battling pirate groups (the Stark Combine being one of the better organized ones), which seldom could boast anything comparable to a Dreadnaught. Dreadnaughts in the EU are shown battling pirates. Dreadnaughts may have served as line vessels at one time in small-scale wars, such as with the Bithhaevrians, but surely these "third-galaxy ncountries" would not have wielded anything too threatening. The local sector fleets protected their regional autonomy with ships which could have taken on Dreadnaughts easily, but couldn't have reached beyond their sectors, thus not threatening their neighbors. The Lucrehulks, modified, were still ill-equipped for battle and despite their size could not have opposed Dreadnaughts for long. Naboo's undermilitarization was crucial to the success of the Trade Federation--Lucrehulks would never have stood up to the Mandators and similar ships in Core sectors. The small/longrange federal ships and large/shortrange local ships provided a balance of power beteen nation and state. One major objective of the Clone Wars was to dispense of the local fleets which were key to the autonomy of the Republic's members and consolidate a strong federal military, combining both firepower and long-range abilities in the Imperial hands while practically eliminating local forces. This was achieved by gradual legislative steps within the loyalist secots. Also, the military clashes of CIS and loyalist sector forces left them so broken on both sides that the Empire, when it arose, had little opposition.

 

Or if you're speaking french, like me. Wich is why I get confused whenever I hear a ship referred as 'she' all the time.

BTW, I'm not a real fleet-junkie, having little to no knowledge regarding ships. I just read this thread once in a while to read the interesting discussions.

 

My debating haunts are not TFN actually; I am relatively new to these boards thanks to their Episode III coverage.
Spacebattles.com was my happy home for some 4 years and 1,800+ posts until school and general life got in the way. I think I started debating around 99 or 00, not sure which.

Actually you do dismiss the C-Level Canon, which does not fit to G-Level explanations.
For instance, the Empire was able to construct a 900km station to some 60% in relatively little time, a few years on the outside. If it had the resources to construct this station, after having already suffered the loss of a 120km version, we know as logical deduction that there are resources capable of constructing the Death Star in the Empire?s economy.

The fact that such a massive project can be completed in complete secret means the resources Palpatine appropriated for the Death Star II project must not have been traceable, or at least not easily traceable.
Had the DSII construction been enough to bankrupt the Empire it would be next to impossible to hide that from the Rebellion?s extensive spy network.

We know, as Canonical Fact, the Empire had the resources to construct a 900km station in complete secret.
Therefore, Deductively, we understand that a vessel orders of magnitudes smaller than the DSII could have been easily built in secret, without straining the economy.

Thus my statement that, according to G-Level Canon and basic logical deduction, the Executor did not bankrupt the Empire is correct.

If the Executor had bankrupted the Empire, a 900km Station would not have been possible. However, resources were plentiful enough to build the DSII in secret, ergo the Executor should have been easy to construct.



Oh, if only Darksaber was indeed a faked NR-propaganda piece?you really shouldn?t tease people like that?. it?s not fair?


We can scale the Star Wars Universe, especially now that the DVDs eliminate much of the old problems with resolution and the like.
Of course everything is within a certain margin of error due to depth and angle issues, however the error is not large enough to seriously call results into question.

When I say generally understood, I mean that the majority of debaters I have encountered over the last five years realize FX departments make mistakes, and don?t automatically assume there is a 500 meter Neb-B out there because some Error accidentally superimposed a Corellian Corvette in the wrong spot during ROTJ.

It does not matter whether people like the idea of a 160km Death Star II.
The DSII has never been 160km; it has always been 900km in Diameter.
Watch ROTJ, the DSII is always the same size when compared to Endor, and I doubt the forest moon has changed diameter recently.
It simply took the Canon a while to correct an initial mistake, as they are now trying to do with Executor.

That is the problem with the current Star Wars Universe.
The Canon is attempting to correct decades old mistakes, which have perpetuated themselves throughout the literature.
It only takes one Source Book to mistakenly identify the Executor as 5 miles long based on a wanting interpretation of an old quote, and boom, we have dozens of books citing the same, consistent, and incorrect numbers.

The Imperial Star Destroyer has always been 1.6 km long.
The Executor has always been 11 times longer than an ISD.
Endor has always enjoyed roughly natural gravity, dictating a specific range for planetary diameter.
The DSII has always been the same size when scaled against this diameter.
The ISD Tower Globes have always been 40 meters in diameter.
The Millennium Falcon has always been perhaps a little longer than those globes, 40-50 meters.

None of the G-Level Canon here has ever been changed.

BTW, Senator, very nice post, it?s a good historical overview of the Republic military.


(BTW, ISD main cannons are calc`d somewhere in the high gigaton or low teraton range while their ?light Turbolasers? are calc`d in the megaton range based on the infamous ESB asteroid. Dreadnoughts are, insofar as I am aw

 

I was only refering to the constant fire rate mode of the cannons (around 2-4 seconds per shot) not the ability to dump the entire reactor into the guns and charge them to planet melting goodness required for a BDZ.

 

Hate to be a pest, but has anyone at all checked out the new boards (linked to in my sig)? I don't mind if there's a general objection to it, but I'd appreciate some feedback...

 

Micky E

SWTC is fanfic. It is not official. Any fan claim based on SWTC is likewise fanfic.

I don't know where you get your biased definition from to claim SWTC is "fan fiction." But it is in keeping with your Crusade.

SWTC observes and reports on what is seen in the movies. When the movies are silent on the matter, it derives material from the other canon (scripts, novelizations, radio dramas). Where THOSE sources are silent, SWTC uses the EU. There is no Curtis Saxton created content (in terms of him personally adding content to the GFFA's canon or EU) on SWTC. Therefore, it is not fan fiction. Harry Knowles' online movie reviews are "fan fiction" according to your self-serving definition of the term.

Just like ASVS.

ASVS fan fiction is clearly marked as fan fiction when it occurs. The debatesthere, using all the canon and EU evidence, is clearly not. TFN debates aren't "fan fiction" either, unless, once again, were using McEwok's self-serving definition of the term.

I'm not envious. I'm simply calling out bad arguments for what they are.

No, you're dismissing what you personally don't like, and proving yourself to be a hypocrite. Then you project this trait on others. I'd love to dismiss the Jedi Academy trilogy, "Darksaber", "The New Rebellion", "The Crystal Star", and most of the New Jedi Order. But I can't. They're acceptable EU sources. Where they don't conflict with canon, of course.

Come to that, what, exactly, is wrong with the corvette - frigate - cruiser - Star Destroyer - Super Star Destroyer system, still canonically defined as the formal Imperial classification?

Actually the canonically defined formal Imperial classification for the SSD is Star Dreadnought. (ITW:SWT). You'd know that if you didn't dismiss ITW:SWT, then hypocritically state you are a poster boy for inclusion of everything.

No, because they're just your bitches, right? And I mean, people whose chief pleasure in life seems to be trying to verbally rape these fanboy üntermenschen are so much less perverse, aren't they...

Ad hominem in place of actual argument. So noted.

So, you don't spend an inordinate amount of Saxton bashing here with just about every thread you star nowadays, AND on SW Wiki? No, of course you don't. You're the "nice" guy, while I'm the uh, "verbal rapist." Here's the difference between you and me, pal. I don't couch what I want to say in faux-impartial doublespeak intended to make me look like I'm not attacking someone when in fact I am. That's your forte. I am 100% honest with anyone I speak to. I'm not going to say, "Well, while I'm sure McEwok is a pillar of the community, and I have found a point of two of his that I thought was excellently conceived, though some of his shady definitions of what constitutes fan fiction are similar to what I understand sociopathic modernists engage in when trying to say something bracing while attempting to look like an impartial observer."

Just so we understand one another.

And, any quotes, please? I've heard this claim made before, but never seen any evidence forthcoming.

You know, I've seen you being asked for quotes and evidence, and more often than not, you dodge, dodge, dodge, claiming only a cursory glance at the material you've referenced. It would be great if you could provide evidence when you're asked to pony up. Anyway:

Marvel Star Wars # 54 "Starfire Rising"

[blockquote]"All aboard knew they hadn't a prayer of success--good as she was, the Falcon was no match for an Imperial Dreadnought--but they had to at least make the attempt.[/blockquote]"

pg. 43: Secretly constructed in orbit around the remote Forest Moon of Endor, the second Death Star is over 900 kilometers (550 miles) in diameter

Oh, good. Thanks. Okay, that's one reference. I'm still not sure whether 160km or 900km is going to win out,
S
It already has.

Poe, any VIP who calls you a frien

 

Gladiuus, I once used to multiforum between my various social, business and writing boards until the demands of diversification invested time I didn't have. It's a good idea but I'll have to pass on this.

 

Going back to the twenty battleship commanders, I assume they're talking about ISD or Tector sized ships?

And how should we reconcile that remark that put the Executors at 19 km?

 

Oh I'ld love to join, but frankly, I'm on too many already and things are about to get very busy in my life. I may join, time allowing.

Hey I know this is a ship thread, but does anyone know which picture of the Freerunner is cannon? There are three: The WEG pic, the rogue squadren version, and the picture from the TCG. While the TCG one is the newest, and would be a better desgin, it doesn't match the description.

 

If we were to look at the actual model used by the FX staff in ROTJ, Saxton identified some 942 blisters on the vessel?s hull.
If even a quarter of these blisters housed Heavy Turbolaser Cannons the Executor would be worth 20 Imperators.
If they were all Heavy Turbolaser Cannons the Executor would be worth more than 3 sector fleets worth of Imperators.

The actual load out for the Executor is not known unfortunately, however we should be able to assume the blisters are indeed weapon emplacements.

Depending on their actually yield, if Saxton?s summations are correct, the Executor should have been able to wipe out most of the Rebel Fleet at Endor on its own.

The problem is that the Executor only engaged with its LTL batteries, so we don't know.

Also, what are the supposed fuel issues with the Executor?
I would assume it has something to do with the Hypermatter Power Generator?

 

The point is a ship can only move and fight as long as its fuel-silos provide its reactors with something to annihilate. A SW-ship running on maximum-output would run out of fuel within a single day (one and a half, if we are generous).

At least since TLC we know, that some battles can last for thirty hours (the battle for XaFel) or more so ships can't fight with their full strenght, if they have no idea how long a battle will last. A second concern might be the stress caused to the ships systems, if those are running at full power for several hours.

 

The short range of the early Mandators hyperdrive was based on a political decision - not an engineering problem.

Then why do Acclamators and other warships use something called hypermatter as fuel?

The post-DE-galaxy suffered from a lot of destruction. I think the imperials experimenting with antimatter is an attempt to get a substitute for hypermatter - this would also suggest an overall decrease in warship-power to the point, where fighters may become effective against them again and justify NR-designs like Defender and Endurance.

What is true for the Executor would be true for the ISDs and the MonCalamari-Cruisers, so that wouldn't work (until the rebels gambled on "all or nothing"). I also think, that the rebels used some of their weapons the way Munificent-Class Star Frigates blow up 1,000 km wide ice-moons.

Plus probabely no weapons on the ventral side, an inexperienced crew and a sh.t-load of capital-ship-torpedos fired by those freighters (80, IIRC)

Questionable, given the fighter-centration of the NR. It is more likely, that Wedge as a fighter-jokey thought "My fighters are gone. We're doomed."

 

I could as well ask you to provide proof, that the Mandators had technological problems, since the Acclamator proves, that no such problem exists.

However the AOTC:ICS says this in its entry of the Acclamator:

"The RETURN of the truly transgalactic warships and armies is a desastrous development."

and in its entry about the Jedi-starfighter:

"Tarifs and embargoes prevent direct competition between KDY, SienerFleetSystems ... and other shipbuilders."

Who struggled with the DeathStar and how?

Both use hypermatter as far as i know. However considering, that the DS had no fueltanks i think the possibility exists, that it got its fuel from onboard-facilities by tapping the energies of a higher dimension OR hypermatter refers to a vast variety of different energy-sources. Contrary to Executors and ISDs the DeathStar is large enough to contain a black-hole or a neutron-star.

Yes and no. We know the the EX-F was an experimental testbed, but we don't know if those experiments involved antimatter, which wouldn't make sense at that point of time since hypermatter is a much more powerful and obviously much more stable energy-source. So the antimatter could have been provided by Pellaeon's ImperialRemnant or perhaps even the Yevetha, since such a xenophobic culture wouldn't participate in the technological developments of the mainstream society of the galaxy and follow its own technological path until forced to do so by imperial occupation.

At the height of the GalacticEmpire there would be no difference. As for the following years, i already adressed that and i'm glad i'm not the only one, who thinks this way.

Correct. So there should have been no reason for Wedge to run, but he did exactly that. And the NR-written EssentialChronology tells us because of the loss of the Endurance and its fighters.