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ST Force Ghosts In The ST Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthWolvo23, Dec 24, 2019.

  1. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    A lot of my issues with TROS relate to the seeming blatant disregard for established force ghost "rules" thus far in the saga films and other canon

    A whole arc of TCW tells us Qui Gon was first to retain his identity in death. This skill he passed on to Yoda following his trials.

    Obi Wan then learns the ability in between ROTS and ANH.

    Anakin has the ability to become a Force Ghost I guess because he is (was?) the Chosen One and also because he can hear Qui Gon when Yoda can in TCW.

    So far so good...

    In the ST the only ghost we had seen up to now was Yoda. Still makes sense...

    Then...TROS

    Suddenly Mace Windu, Ahsoka, Kanan and other even more random Jedi can speak to Rey even though they died without this knowledge.

    Even more confusingly Ben Solo dies and vanished but DOES NOT reappear as a ghost

    What is going on?

    Any thoughts?

    Needs to be explained or major canon has been absolutely destroyed here
     
  2. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    So did Vader so Ben is a none issue. Those Jedi of past were not force ghosts.
     
  3. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Force sensitives can hear the dead because they are tapped into the cosmic force. This is well established in the saga. All life in the Star Wars Universe becomes part of the cosmic force when it dies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  4. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    TITLE UPDATE.
     
  5. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    IMO - Throughout SW we have heard the phrase "the will of the Force" and other indicators that the Fiece is some type of large scale, intelligent living entity.

    Once Qui Gon learned to maintain his own personality and interact with the physical world , he then passed that knowledge on to Yoda Obi Wan and Luke.

    As this was a new aspect of the Force it took some time for the Masters to completely understand the ramifications and breadth of their powers.

    Over time Qui Hon and crew were able to isolate that life force of other Jedi who had died and show them how to manifest as a Firce Goast.

    One thing that I have always wondered is why and how the Force would evolve over time based on its interactions with Force Ghosts and I think TROS revels part of that growth.

    Also in reality we know very little about how the Force is structured and operates and it deems clear that the Jedi and Sith 's understanding was also incomplete. So I really dont have an issue with Force prodigy's or Dyads etc.

    The rules for training to be a Jedi or Sith are very different than the Force itself and had become unwieldy and dogmatic. So perhaps the Firce chose for Rey and Kylo to be supercharged to bring itself back into balance once more.

    As a living system it seems unlikely that the Force would simply remain in balance after anakin restored it. Living systems just don't operate like that and need to work to remain in a select range.

    This area is ripe for exploration by SW fans but in no way diminishes the PT or OT .
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  6. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Timeline is a factor that critics keep ignoring. Force ghosts are relatively new in this story as far as discoveries go, so this is ripe for development. Yoda, probably the most knowledgeable master we've seen in Star Wars, was able to summon lightning, but that doesn't necessarily mean Ben could. Qui-Gon couldn't retain his form, Ben learned how to do that, and then Yoda maybe learned how to manipulate the living world based on what his consciousness knew.

    And who knows what Luke learned between ROTJ and TLJ? He obviously picked up some things from Yoda before dying.

    To me, this is a non-issue, and force ghosts aren't too powerful here.
     
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  7. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    So you think after Qui Gon's discovery he has started to bring other Jedis' consciousness back?

    I still don't understand why Ben doesnt appear as a ghost

    Would finally give Leia a chance to reunite with him which was teased throughout the film
     
  8. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    No. Those other Jedi are part of the cosmic force. We recognize them as former Jedi, but in reality it's just the force speaking to Rey through those fallen Jedi's voices. And those fallen Jedi are all part of the force, so from a certain point of view it is them speaking to Rey.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 2x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I figured they did reunite. They only need to manifest to talk to the living - they can talk to one another without manifesting as visual shapes.
     
  10. Darth Buzz

    Darth Buzz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
    My biggest question is why did the force ghost CGI looks so bad in TROS? They looks so blurry and messy. Looked very poor for some reason.
     
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  11. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    No idea. But Spock died in Star Trek II and then he was resurrected: as a boy, without any memory of his previous self. Then he recovered it, or was made to through a ritual.
    Abrams probably knows about it, and it's similar to the process C3PO goes through the film. The droid went 'sith', eyes red, and then rebooted to a younger version of himself. Anakin was 'rebooted' to his ROTS appearance in ROTJ.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  12. Zdarlight

    Zdarlight Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Yep yep.

    The tl;dr is that ALL Jedi who have followed the path of the light remain within the Cosmic Force upon their death - and are thus able to communicate with other Jedi, in a limited fashion, as a disembodied voice. The ability to manifest as a Force Ghost is an acquired skill, however, which has to be learned, either before death or afterwards.

    Followers of the dark side are unable to learn this skill. This is likely why Ben doesn't immediately become a Force Ghost upon his death: he's redeemed himself enough to become one with the Force (and thus 'evaporate' upon death) but needs to have a good chat with Luke or Yoda or whoever and complete the training before he'll be able to become a Ghost.
     
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  13. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Leia and Ben vanishing simultaneously is a very significant clue. I take it that she has remained with her body, waiting in death for him to die (because she foresaw that he would die at the end of her Jedi path), so that she can take him with her when she finally lets go of the material realm and brings her body into the Force.
    That's their reunion right there.
     
  14. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    I like this but I just wish we had got that one scene of them together as ghosts to give closure to the audience
     
  15. Zdarlight

    Zdarlight Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Yeah, I feel like Leia was communicating with Kylo/Ben in ways we didn't see in this film. It would have been nice to see some kind of interaction between them, but obviously options were limited because of Carrie's death and the footage they had available. Maybe the scene with Han's 'memory' came about because of that: to give the viewer a visual representation of Kylo's return to the light.
     
  16. jeangreyforever

    jeangreyforever Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2019
    I wanted just one scene to see Leia and Ben together. Even if she or both were force ghosts.
     
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  17. Jordan1Kenobi

    Jordan1Kenobi SWC 100 Day Star Wars Challenge Host star 6 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    You know what would’ve been amazing - as Rey was calling all of the past Jedi, all of their Force ghosts start to appear behind her in an arc. As she gets up they all hold out one of their hands to give her strength. She then walks closer and closer to Palpatine while holding off his lighting and defeats him.
     
  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    I would imagine that (assuming JJ will even try to explain this) he might be going back to the old Lucas notes. There's a hint of this in Rogue One:

    CHIRRUT ÎMWE: May the Force of others be with you. May the Force of others be with you.

    Not to mention Rey and Leia were talking about this at the beginning of TROS.

    Besides, Lucas has kinda been all over the place on Force ghosts as well...

    The Qui-Gon Jinn thing you will discover as time goes on. There is a whole issue around that and the ability to disappear. The key line to understanding this is when Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader, 'If you try to strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'... So, that's a key line. And it'll be explained as we go along. — George Lucas, The Phantom Menace News Conference, New York

    As history shows, Lucas never really explained it.
     
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  19. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    One of several plot points that GL wanted to delve into but never got the time to fully explore in the Saga.
    TCW gave him an opportunity to deal with those things, though, which I appreciated.

    Definitely. If Carrie had lived, I don't think Han would've appeared in this film. He might have, but a significant portion of the story would likely have revolved around Ben finding his way back through his interactions with Leia.
    Perhaps her death would've been the tipping point, as it pretty much is now. I always thought that would be a fitting inversion of Anakin beginning his descent when he lost Shmi.
     
  20. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    Debatable. 'See you around, kid'.
     
  21. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Yoda’s FG appearance in TLJ is the best FG appearance of all time.
     
  22. Skibisky

    Skibisky Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2019
    This was confusing, I took it to imply that Kylo hadn't really "moved on". Not sure what the intention was there.
     
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  23. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    The simple answer is this - force ghosts were a new concept introduced in Episode 2, when we first hear Yoda listening to Qui -Gon attempting to stop Anakin's massacre of the sand people. Over the next 60 years or however long it's been, that concept and knowledge has evolved.

    If these movies came out in sequential order, would we be freaking out in Episode 5 when we see a physical force ghost for the first time after only hearing them in Episodes 2 through 4?

    We have to watch these movies while keeping in mind that literal decades are passing and force knowledge is constantly improving, especially now that the characters also now have access to ancient Jedi texts that they didn't have access to before.

    Personally, I was hoping that they were evolving this concept of Force Ghosts interacting with the physical world in order to set up Anakin's big return to kill Palpatine to re-fulfill the prophecy at the end of TROS, but I digress.

    Wow, until you just pointed this out to me, it never dawned on me that this never occurred through three movies, not even as a Force Skype. There is so much shame on these writers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
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  24. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Anakin's FG never appearing to either Ben or Rey will never NOT be a huge missed opportunity imho. Also Obi Wan appearing to Luke rather than Yoda would have made more sense as well I think.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  25. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Oh, I don't know....JJ threw every single SW concept into this film and turned it up to 11. I, frankly, wasn't surprised to see Han.

    What was funny was when I went to see TROS with my wife after I'd already seen it. Prior to the film, she was saying how we probably wouldn't see Han because he can't be a Force ghost, and then he shows up and she's all "What the hell?", lol
     
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