ST Force Ghosts In The ST Discussion Thread

So was the farting Eopie, but I'd rather it hadn't been included in the cut...

 

The kids will have enjoyed that bit though. These movies don't have to be 100% earnest, 100% serious, have 100% watertight logic and continuity in my opinion because that's part of their charm.

 

The Yoda scene in TLJ was one of best tihngs in TLJ. We get a return to OT Yoda.

 

They are the sum of their parts and, in my humble option, the ST is predominately made up of parts that don't connect and have little internal logic to them... Narratively/thematically, it would have made much more sense for Anakin to speak to Luke in that particular moment... maybe the one force ghost that Luke can truly identify with (?)... but that's a whole other debate.

 

With Anakinthere's the whole debate, do you go with old Anakin like in the original cut of ROTJ and recast Anakin for cameo role or do you go with HAyden and Anakin looks so mutch younger then his own son. By TROS it seems they would go with Hayden but use him as a voice. Same problem with Obi Wan Kenobi do you go with old Ben or young Obi Wan, Ewan isn't as old was Ben was and might not have looked very good if tried.

 

The scene was to establish a reconciliation for Luke with his perceived failure as a Jedi master, and so his own master appears to talk to him about it, gently chiding him and reassuring him at the same time. Anakin never became a Jedi Master, nor did he train Luke, Yoda did. Made sense to me.

 

And which force ghost do you think had insight into being a failure as a Jedi? As I say, it's like Abrams and Johnson never watched a Star Wars film.

 

The one who had trained Jedi for 800 years whilst alive maybe?

 

So not the Jedi who actually turned to the darkside? And now you think Yoda's a failure?

 

Yoda was Dooku's master so he knows failure.

 

Not failure as a Jedi, but failure as a Jedi master, a teacher of others.

Who is going to understand that burden and responsibility more than the character who spent 800 years being one?

 

Yoda wasn’t a failure as a Jedi Master... so wouldn’t have any insight into it anyway... which is why the films have an absence of internal logic. Yoda turning up as a force ghost is random, and makes little narrative sense. Luke spends most of the OT trying to figure out who he is, and when he finds out, he does everything to bring back his father. That’s where, narratively, the one to reach out to Luke should be Yoda. That’s where the emotion/drama of the story should be... but yeah muppet Yoda right?

 

Yoda trained Jedi for 800 years and in that time had at least one student of his own who turned to the Dark Side, Dooku. And he was also the master of Anakin’s master. The shihan to Obi-Wan’s sensei role if you will. “The Jedi master who instructed me” Yoda was also the most senior Jedi master on that Council, the buck stopped with him.

So you are incorrect. Based on the character’s history, Yoda will have insight into what it means to fail in this role, and what Luke needed to acknowledge in order to move forward.

 

You are incorrect. Dooku was a fully formed Jedi Master when he turned to the darkside. He wasn’t Yoda’s padawan at the time. You’d be better off citing Obi-Wan Kenobi, but of course that would be completely missing the thematic connection too.

So you believe Yoda is accountable for Dooku and Anakin turning to the darkside, and by virtue of that, Yoda is a failed Jedi Master? No wonder you like the sequels...

How so? Luke was questioning the very function/purpose/existence of the Jedi itself. At no point in the previous films is Yoda shown to share, or have empathy, with this view. So again, you’re incorrect. The only Jedi that can possibly have empathy with Luke is Anakin. He rejected the Jedi. He knows exactly what it’s like to lose sight of the underlying philosophies/principles, and what the consequences of that are... FIRST HAND knowledge... But of course including Yoda in TLJ is nothing but a callback, and it has little narrative connection to what transpires in the previous films. Which is one of the reasons why, IMO, are badly conceived films.

 

It doesn't matter. Yoda was still his master, and was the character who passed his teachings directly to Dooku. Also, as said. Yoda was the most senior master on the Council in the prequels. Anakin's turn will have reverberated all the way up to him, especially as it was his judgment as senior master that allowed for Anakin to be trained in the first place. Yoda will know, and that what makes him qualified as the character to appear in The Last Jedi in this scene.

Go back and read my posts. I never said that Yoda is a failed Jedi master, you did. I said that he would have insight into the burdens and responsibilities of a Jedi master, and will know what it feels like as a master to lose students to the Dark Side.

Luke's questioning of the function of the Jedi stems from his own perceived failure as Ben's teacher. This is in the movie. The character most qualified to reassure him that it is okay to fail in this role and that failure is probably the best teacher of all then is the character who has lived through all this, has 800 years of experience at it, and has overseen the training of students who have already succumbed to the Dark Side.

The scene was specifically about what it means to be a teacher, not a failed Jedi. If Anakin ought to have appeared to anybody in the sequels, it should have been Kylo Ren, having direct insight into the consequences of being the person who actually succumbs to the Dark Side.

 

failed I have.. one of my favourite Yoda lines.. Yoda believed he had failed.. which is why he destroyed the tree.. to start again with Rey.
ps I was disappointed that Anakin didn't get more than a voice in the ST.. but again I believe they were terrified of including Hayden cos of anti Hayden /PT backlash while dealing with anti TLJ backlash

 

Absolutely redundant to the point in hand. So TLJ/Johnson is trying to impart to the audience that the only person who can get through to Luke is an ex head of the Jedi Council? That
Luke responds more to the concept of Jedi hierarchy, than he does say, to the words of his father who died for him. TLJ must be even more vapid and facile than we thought...

What does being an ex council member bring to the counter argument made to Luke that Anakin couldn’t bring? Obi-Wan has more insight than Yoda into being a failed ‘Jedi master’.

Is it? I’ve obviously not watched the film as much as you... but why would Luke not see Yoda as part of the problem if Luke felt that way about the Jedi? Luke just sees it as a cycle of endless **** ups right? At least Anakin can say ‘yeah I felt that way too but I was wrong’. Yoda can’t say that because he never felt like Anakin or Luke.

He thought he’d failed in not being able to stop Palpatine. He didn’t think the Jedi were **** and should die.

 

It brings the fact that Yoda is the character in all of this nine part saga depicted as the longest serving, most senior and most qualified Jedi master of all. There is also the small detail that he was Luke's one-to-one teacher. Therefore it makes sense, in the context of a scene which deals with Luke's introspection about being a Jedi Master, a teacher, that the most qualified character appears to discuss this with him, and that is Yoda, his own master.

In this context, the scene has nothing to do with Anakin.

 

Again that’s irrelevant. Why should Luke be so responsive to the manifestation of Jedi hierarchy (Yoda) when he’s (Luke) always wore his heart/emotions on his sleeve? Why doesn’t Luke believe that Yoda is part of the problem? If Luke believes the Jedi should ‘die’, why would he believe the one who headed them up? If anything, Yoda should exacerbate the problem for Luke, not diffuse it. But of course, Johnson is never going to explore these themes, or the inconstancies he presents, because of the ST’s superficial nature.

The film is quite specific in terms of Luke seeing the problem as being the ‘Jedi’ and not just him right? So there’s no logic in it taking Yoda to make Luke see ‘sense’... it’s just a lazy callback with no deeper meaning than ‘oh look it’s Yoda’... which is why they try and retro fit Yoda being the ‘zany’ version of himself in TESB... which again has no logic to it.

It certainly doesn’t have anything to do with Yoda.

 

I've always taken that line to mean he'd failed Anakin too.. the whole jedi order under him had failed

 

I don’t care for TLJ Yoda. Doesn’t capture the heart of the original saga character for me, which is far more than a quip ready, spastic tree burner.

Still can’t believe we got an ST without a Force ghost Anakin, while we did get to see Han’s dice in “ghost” form. Very strange creative priorities, and a big reason the ST doesn’t flow as a natural continuation to me.

 

Luke isn't having familial problems here, he is having something of a crisis of faith stemming from his failure as a teacher. Hence it makes sense that his own master appears to put him straight. You know, the little character who knows more about what it means to be a teacher than any other Jedi master.

His reason for being on that island is due to a perception that he failed as a Jedi master. That is first and foremost what is driving his apparent disillusionment. His insistence that it is time for the Jedi "to end" is predicated on his status as "the last Jedi" (clue is in the title) and his determination that he will never train another generation of Jedi.

At the same time, despite this declaration, Luke is seen wistfully thumbing the sacred Jedi texts which, like him, are last of the Jedi religion. He also pauses when he goes to burn the temple and the books. He is shown thus as being torn between his disillusionment towards the religion, and his belief, reverence, duty towards it. Whatever you want to call it.

Luke believes that he should have only passed on his strengths, but his own master reminds him that failure is the greatest teacher, and that strengths aren't the only thing to pass on. He didn't heed his master's teachings, and hence it is his master who appears, to advise him.

The overriding theme of Yoda's appearance is to encourage his former student to stop looking to the past, stop with the self-recrimination. Let go of old dogma and old books. Unlearn what he has learned. Face up to the notion of being a Jedi master, even if that constitutes failure.

Which then leads into Luke's appearance at the end.

So it makes sense to me. Sorry that you didn't like it.

 

I thought the scene was full of nonsensical fortune-cookie-philosophy.

"We are what they grow beyond" says the guy to a former student who never grew beyond him (as evidenced in this very scene where he still needs to be treated exactly like a noob student) about a girl who was never a student of said guy and was beyond him before they ever met.
Oy.

Though I guess Yoda pointing out how Luke didn't get anything right in say 20 years (give or take the start of failure academy) or at least 6 years would have been rubbing it in too much?

Guess we might not have gotten the stupid projection then. No that I would have considered that a loss. Find some other plot convenience to stop the FO for a minute or two before Rey saves the Rebels.

 

Which is why Yoda can't (or shouldn't) be an objective participant... because he is an exponent of the faith.

But you've already alluded to the notion that Yoda is responsible for Dooku and Anakin's fall to the darkside... so logic dictates that, you know, the 'little character' that failed both Dooku and Anakin probably aint the best teacher to get an objective opinion from... Hmm...

With all due respect, you're just kind of reciting the same meaningless statements. If Luke is so cynical of the Jedi, what they stand for, and what they have done, why does Luke then proceed to listen to Yoda? Can you quote the dialogue that states why Luke thinks the Jedi should 'die', but yet thinks Yoda is immune to those same criticisms?

I call it largely meaningless. Luke is prepared to watch the galaxy burn down around him. He's prepared to see his friends, the Jedi die... yet he holds onto the Jedi texts. It's all rather inconsistent, doesn't really hold up to scrutiny and is reflective of how the ST is disconnected with itself let alone the previous films... in my opinion of course.

'Strength' is subjective yes? We know Luke was different from the Jedi who came before him... he wasn't dogmatic like the Jedi of the PT, he was in touch with his emotions, he had 'faith in his friends'... which is why Luke would't have needed a Jedi Master, but a friend, or someone he loved i.e. his father. And Johnson does't get that... otherwise he wouldn't have used Yoda... but we really know that we've put more effort into explaining this scene today than Johnson did in writing it.

Luke wasn't a Jedi who looked to the past. He was not dogmatic. That's a construct that's been inserted to make him look a failure by Johnson... which is why his characterisation in TLJ is largely derided and criticised... but that's a whole other debate.



So it makes sense to me. Sorry that you didn't like it.[/QUOTE]

 

What is the point of an objective participant or opinion? Like anything, when beset by insecurities about failure or faith or ability the best reassurance is going to come from somebody with the insight and prior experience of failing who has been there.

The scene first and foremost is about Luke coming to terms with his perceived failure as a master. Appropriate dialogue in the context of this scene’s theme has a direct link to their last scene together in Return of Jedi when Yoda says “Heed not my words did you? Pass on what you have learned...”

So it makes sense to me that Yoda is the character in this scene. Sorry that you didn't like it.