main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Force Ghosts In The ST Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthWolvo23, Dec 24, 2019.

  1. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    But were they spirit or flesh?
     
  2. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    yes
     
  3. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Flesh they were the Sith loyalists
     
  4. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    I agree but thinking back she hadn't vanished yet

    Although most of these jedi dont vanish either so I'm definitely giving the writers too much credit
     
    jeangreyforever likes this.
  5. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    This thought makes me see so much wasted opportunity in this trilogy:

    We never see a Leia converse with her son OR her father (after redemption) in the entire saga :-(
     
  6. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Thinking on it though, I am not sure what a Force Ghost Anakin would have brought to the party. Neither Ben nor Rey ever knew Anakin Skywalker, even Luke never knew him, save for a few minutes before he died.

    They could have done a "Jacob Marley" type appearance of Anakin to Kylo Ren to warn him of his continued path, but I don't know whether it would have worked or not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
    Iron_lord likes this.
  7. greytstar

    greytstar Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2015
    I think the difference is that Obi Wan and the others who learned the technique are still present in some form and they are able to comeback and assist characters by their own will whereas the other ghost like Luke only appear for a short period when a jedi requires its presence.
    In any case I agree that the screenwritters should have taken more in considerations the rules and stories from the previous movies
     
    wobbits likes this.
  8. jeangreyforever

    jeangreyforever Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2019
    Especially since some are speculating that in the original ending, Leia was supposed to revive Ben and this is why she fades away at the end of the film and Maz looks so pleased, not because mother and son have been reunited in death but because mother has saved son with her final act and thus averted the vision she feared all along. Even if we didn't see Leia, we could have heard her voice-over as Ben is miraculously revived in Rey's arms.

    Even if Ben had to die, it would have been comforting to see him by his mother's side at the end but we didn't even get that. I would have loved for just one image of Leia and Ben together.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
    DarthWolvo23 likes this.
  9. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    I could be wrong, but I don't think this is accurate... at least not accurate to pre-2012 lore. All life feeds into the Cosmic Force, but the ability to retain individuality after becoming one with the Force was not an ability known to the Jedi Council in the waning days of the Republic... at least not known until Yoda encounters Qui-Gon and proceeds to his trials to ascertain the truth of what he had experienced.

    Also, from the opposite perspective, Darth Plagueis rejected the idea of the netherworld and viewed this, seemingly requisite, loss of identity as indicative of the weakness inherent in the Jedi... or something like that. It's been a long time, lol.

    On this we agree, though the ability to maintain once's identity after death is a prerequisite and is not simply a function of being a good force sensitive individual.

    At the risk of seemingly like I'm splitting hairs... I think this is more of an issue of Sith practitioners precluding themselves from becoming Force ghosts in that they way they use the Force would not allow for the ability to manifest. In other words, the manner in which Qui-Gon and Yoda are able to retain their individuality required them to train in such a way that would not be desirable to the Sith philosophy. It's not for lack of ability as much as lack of good decision making; lack of positive spirituality.

    My understanding is that Obi Wan was originally intended to survive ANH, but was killed off to give Luke a dramatic anchor going into the third act. So, just after having Obi Wan killed off unexpectedly, GL probably hadn't developed how that would be handled in the next movie yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  10. Zdarlight

    Zdarlight Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2016
    That's the thing though - I'd love to refer to the old pre-2012 Legends canon (I definitely have a better brain store of info on that than the new Disney canon) but I was trying to stick to the rules of the current SW universe. So we've only really got the films and current supplementary material to go by, unfortunately.

    After the final scenes of TROS, it's suggested that all Jedi who've died are in some way able to communicate with the living - we hear the voices of plenty of Jedi who we've never seen as Ghosts. So we've gotta assume that basic communication is possible for every dead Jedi, presumably through presence in the Cosmic Force, but the ability to manifest as a Force Ghost is still available only to the select few who've completed the training. Current canon definitely seems to be trying to emphasise that simply being a dead Jedi = ability to maintain some aspect of individuality and communicate with other living Jedi. Which, yeah, does contradict the Legends canon.

    Either way, it does tie in with Ben's death tbh, and the reason why we don't see him in Ghost form at the end of the film. He's only just turned towards the Light, and probably needs to acquire the skill before he can manifest as a Ghost.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  11. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    An Anakin Force Ghost was a MUST have and would have worked great had it been set up in TFA & TLJ. This scene, I am curious, of Anakin, Luke, Leia Force Ghost showing up to take down Palpatine, would have been an awesome site to see. A couple of big factors that played into it I think are:
    Which Anakin do you choose? I believe one main reason GL made ROTJ Anakin Hayden was because that is when Anakin "died". However he may have known he would sell the company and that said company would have Hayden to use. However JJ may believe in the OOT and stuck to just a voice. As bumbed as I was, hearing Haydens voice really works and I believe it is his power along with others, that blow Palpatine away.
    The other reason would be Carries death so no footage exist to make the scene work.
    I really wish TFA established Kylo talking to Vaders helmet hearing Palpatines or Snokes voice lieing to him. Part of his turn establishes his ability to hear or talk to Anakin who says that Vader is not him anymore and that he has been hoodwinked by Palps/Snoke.
    I agree with an earlier post stating Leia should have Force Skyped with Ben. The one scene i also wanted was Luke appearing to Ben. Maybe after the Han memory scene, have Luke appear (see you around kid). Bottom line was, there wasn't enough time to do this right because of the trilogy being in a state of disjointedness. Had they done it correctly, they would have used the ideas stated above plus some other more fleshed out story lines.
     
  12. insideguy

    insideguy Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2019
    I personally think that force ghosts being able to physically impact real world events opens up the biggest can of worms ever. I don't even know how you can put the worms back in the can now. The ST has issues. But this is the biggest issue by far. Nothing is even close.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    astinus4 likes this.
  13. Doom_Buggy

    Doom_Buggy Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2016
    How did Leia learn to become a Force ghost? Apparently, her Jedi training lasted less than a year. Did force ghost Lukes teach her?
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Possibly. Just as Force Ghost Obi-Wan taught Anakin, in Legends (and arguably newcanon as well)

    https://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker-biography-gallery

    (see last panel).
     
    Doom_Buggy likes this.
  15. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Personally, I think that an apparition of Anakin appearing to Kylo could have been great. It could have been portrayed as him thinking he was losing his mind even more and becoming even more unhinged. In terms of aesthetic, I would have kept the appearance very mysterious. Robed and hooded, with face in almost total shadow. Don't give the ghost a definitive appearance.

    Just as an aside, I am quite taken with the idea that Force Ghosts would become more disembodied as time went on. As the memory of the person fades, so does their ghostly appearance, until it is just a voice, then finally to disappear forever. I think that has poignancy.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  16. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2015
    May the Force be with you is how this started back in 1977. People tell this to one another in the galaxy. The prequels and all this stuff over the last twenty plus years have really mucked so much up. Keep it simple.
    If a mom is grieving over her poor son the stormtrooper and he appears to her as a vision from the afterlife, why not? Otherwise it’s just a trick game. Lucas always had more the there’s more to heaven and earth philosophy.
     
  17. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    So far, it seems as if F G s can only appear to Force sensitive individuals. Only Luke was able to see Yoida , Ben and Anakin at the end of ROTJ and this has carried thru to the ST.
    So it is a bit unclear as to how much impact they could have under other circumstances.
    Yes, Luke and Yoda were able to interact with real world objects but only with a Force sensitive being the only witness.
     
    insideguy likes this.
  18. insideguy

    insideguy Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Hmm ok there is an out there I will give ya that. Good point.
     
  19. vaderfandan

    vaderfandan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    100% - Completely stupid. Let's think about this...

    Rey shows up to face Palps. Luke's Force Ghost shows up. Rey throws him the lightsaber. Luke is a ghost, so Palps can't harm or kill him. Luke walks up to Palps, ignites the saber, and chops his head off.
     
  20. insideguy

    insideguy Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Hmmm also good point. Yea this is not good.
     
    vaderfandan likes this.
  21. Darth Nerf Herder

    Darth Nerf Herder Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Just a thought I had the other night when reflecting back on the sequel trilogy. Why did Anakin not appear to Ben Solo when he was being tempted by the Dark Side and worshipped Darth Vader? Ben thought Vader was speaking to him and urging him to complete what he had started, but I would've thought Anakin would've appeared to his grandchild to put him back on the right path before he became Kylo Ren.

    Thoughts?
     
    wobbits and whostheBossk like this.
  22. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    It might have been very cool, and certainly the fans would have loved it. But would it have made much sense, because Ben never knew him? Even Luke never really knew Anakin Skywalker. The link would have been pretty tenuous.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  23. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    If you have ears then hear! Ben was deliberately deaf to anyone from the light side trying to communicate with him until Leia FINALLY broke through on her death bed.
     
  24. wobbits

    wobbits Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2017
    Others have made plenty of good in story suggestions as to how he could appear and to whom in the other thread but overall I think TPTB just didnt want to have anything substantial to do with HC or the PT.
     
  25. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    The entire driving motivation for Kylo Ren is to “finish what his grandfather started”

    I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t make sense.