Force Ghosts: The Biggest Contradiction In Star Wars?

Although I respect the fact that Lucas wanted to imbue the "Force Ghosts" or apparitions of Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin with an internal meaning for existing, the explanation he provided - or would have provided with Neeson's vocal contribution - seems completely at odds with the entire concept. Here is the relevant scene:

If you can only attain "the ability to defy oblivion" by letting go of "everything" and having "no thought of self", then:

1) Why would you want to come back and commune with people as a recognisable individual in the physical world? If you've let go of EVERYTHING, why would you desire communication with people who you bear no attachment to? And why would you want to appear to them in your individual form if you have "no thought of self" (Yoda knows it is Qui Gon speaking to him as surely as Luke knows that he sees/hears Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin)?

2) Why would the the Force itself "reward" you in this way? Shouldn't you be happy to merge with it and shouldn't "it" be happy for you?

This entire issue strikes me as how I announced it in the thread title: the biggest contradiction in Star Wars. As I was typing, however, the idea that the Force itself may grant compassionate individuals this ability because it wants them to "spread the word", so to speak, hit me as one possible explanation. But I really can't see another. Perhaps it is better that this exchange never made it into the film after all (though Qui Gon's name seems to come out of left field and the camera pan around Yoda, in what would have been his actual dialogue with Qui Gon, ends abruptly; we even miss Yoda humbly announcing that he, of all people, will become an apprentice; in short, the film suffers for its loss).

 

Wow thats an awesome scene, probably the best out of all the cool scenes they edited out.



I think the no attachment part is in reference to ones self. We're all grounded in our bodies, attached and I think Qui-Gon means that you must let go of your worldly self that you've been worried about for so long.

Too advise others, That may be the purpose of this power, the ultimate third person view with absolutely no personal interest.

 

i campaigned hard for the return of this scene to the DVD edition of the film but after giving it lots of thought i am now pretty happy it never made it in - the explanation doesnt really make any sense and i think the issue is best left up to the individual's imaginations

PS the qui-gon thing doesnt really come out of left field if u count his voice in AOTC & the scene i am using as my icon from the CW cartoon (which IMO IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT SCENES IN THE WHOLE SAGA)

 

These are all good points, but that deleted scene made me notice they actually do have an explanation for Anakin being able to come back as a "force ghost".

There is the compassionate act of saving Luke after all thought Anakin's soul was gone (maybe it was), and because he lets go of his own life.

As Qui-Gon said
You will learn to let go of everything... no thought of self

Maybe that was obvious. Oh well

 

i'm not a buddhist, so i'm not all that sure about detachment and such. i made a thread about attachment a while ago, because i do believe that *cheezy music sets in* love is the answer.
and the type of detachment the jedi preach in the PT seems to be the equivalent to 'not giving a sith'.

yet there should be a way to be detached (not love possessively etc) that still has you care about other people and feel for them. a way that you can mourn your dead without being reprimanded.

2) Why would the the Force itself "reward" you in this way? Shouldn't you be happy to merge with it and shouldn't "it" be happy for you?

that's ahuge puzzle for me,t oo. if the force is all about energy, then it doesn't have a will. and then it cannot grant anyone access. in fact, access i granted through a skill, like QGJ has mastered coming back from the netherworld.

at any rate, i don't think it's necessary anakin actually gives his life as such, i think it's more the willingness to save someone he cares about, which also was his original motivation in ROTS. had he been able to save luke without dying, he'd still have been alright, i think.
to me it seems the enormous amount of love he has inside of him dies when he learns he's killed padme. it just has to find something to answer to again, and that's luke.

 

Essentially, if you are selfless, why would you want to maintain your 'self'. Very good point, and a pretty good example of the problems with the jedi religion/philosophy: Some ineresting individual ideas that unravel quickly if you try to fuse them into an overall, unifying concept.

 

I really wish that scene was in the DVD!

 

Me too. But they never even filmed it.

---

And as a side note ... maybe that's why they never filmed that scene. Because it contradicted, like you say, with the rest of what we already know.

 

I've mentioned this before, and gotten hammered for it, but it's still relevant, and Guinness did say it in an interview - whether you believe it's true or not is for you to decide: We all know Guinness got tired of the hoopla around Star Wars. In an interview, he claims that he got so tired of the silly dialogue in ANH that he insisted he be kllled off so that his role going forward would be limited, and suggested the idea of the ghost to Lucas.

If this is true, and I think it probably is, it sheds quite a bit of light on why the ghost phenonmenon is never explained in the entire saga: Lucas had to come up with it on the fly, and was never able to come up with a good explanation of it.

 

Love has a strong role in these movies. It's love (attachment) that seduces Anakin to the Dark Side, and it's love (connection) that redeems him in the end. Although I agree that Attachment can lure someone to the Dark Side, I think there's a difference between Attachment and Connection. Either way, it's all about love. But Attachment means that you're dependent upon your connection and unable to let go.

I have a point. Don't worry ...

So Why are the Force Spirits able to retain their consciousness and identity without attachments? I think it's because of their connections.

I think the reason why no one else could see the Force Spirits of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end of ROTJ was because they were connected to Luke. And all three characters have an obvious connection to Luke. Alternatively, you can argue that everyone else on Endor just wasn't Force-Sensitive or attuned to perceive Force Spirits.

Also, you never see Qui-Gon Jinn's Force Spirit in the original trilogy. Now, I know that there's real life reasons for this. But on screen (in AOTC and assuming that they would have included that scene in ROTS), Qui-Gon only ever communicates with Yoda. Which begs the question: Why would Qui-Gon connect with Yoda?

In all, I think characer connection is the key to the Force Spirit thing. That and unfinished business. These characters need to stick around so that things can be set right and balance can e restored to the Force.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

 

Which begs the question: Why would Qui-Gon connect with Yoda?

For one thing, he was darn near the only jedi left, towards the end of ROTS anyway.

Before that time, Yoda was the only jedi powerful enough to recieve Qui Gonn's messages without being trained beforehand.

 

It's borrowed from Taoism, nothing to do with Buddhism. In Taoism the "let go of everything" is just an intermediate step in the process of achieving immortality in afterworld. The entire idea of the disappearing Jedi, the preservation of the individual as a Force ghost that can be learnt by means of training is unmistakenly a reference to Taoist inner alchemy - for further explanation see this thread: http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/1523876/?157
I might add that even the Force lightning issue has its roots in ancient Taoist legends; there are actually legends in which ancient Taoist masters duel using Chi lightning bolts. To many parallels to be coincidential for me.