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ST Force Powers In The ST Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ender_and_Bean, Dec 31, 2017.

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  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Whether it’s the child at the end Force-pulling the broom without training, or Rey’s own accelerated training, it’s clear that from here on out the Force is stronger than before. Heck, we even have non-Force users like Chirrut doing things we would have thought only a Jedi in the 80s or PT could do strictly via his enhanced senses and faith in the Force.

    It doesn’t mean that there still won’t be gradual levels that are worked up to and mastery that takes years to move toward but the feats of mastery will increase.

    Power creeps are common when older properties are updated regularly. Adam West’s Batman is primitive in comparison to Christopher Nolan’s. Hulk’s abilities on screen in the 1970s are less than what we can see him do now. Vampires have had their powers increase from their original text. Zombies too. Sumarai films have moved from the ground to the sky with wire work. Some of this is technology-driven. Some of it is audience driven. Something like Astral projection wouldn’t have worked on screen in the 1970s because it was too big a jump from any power the public would have seen. In 2017, after the Matrix and a decade of Marvel films, they are able to bring the 25 year old Dark Empire power to life. It’s been 40 years since Star Wars first blew away audiences and expectations have raised in action and powers and visuals since.

    So, rather than comparing Rey or Broom Boy to Luke’s journey constantly, and thinking about midi levels and the like and wondering how... or worse... letting something as arbitrary as power in the mind keep you from enjoying new films, why not just imagine that powers have been awakened and heightened 30 years later for reasons that are currently mysterious and just leave it at that?

    The Force from here on out is going to be more about the power of imagination and belief, and yes some training to help even know what’s possible, but it’s all in the mind so those who have Force power and visualize best and believe have the advantage and filmmakers are going to speed things up so that they don’t have to work up to a Jedi mind trick 3 films later. This doesn’t mean there won’t be progression and training to improve but everything will just start higher.

    If that’s the smallest update they have to make to help Star Wars connect with more children it doesn’t seem like too much of an ask as far as suspension of disbelief goes for us older fans, does it? I’m curious why some are so offended by the update so long as there’s still some self discipline, and self-practice and an emphasis on belief and imagination. How can someone really teach another to levitate another anyway beyond the explanations for what the Force is (As Luke and Yoda and Obi-Wan did) and putting an emphasis on the senses. Some are just going to believe easier and faster and visualize better as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  2. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I'm not convinced that chirrut isn't FS on some level. That was the appeal of the way it was handled. He wasn't a super hero, but he can muster some things that normal folk would have to be extremely lucky to pull off. The problem with accelerated powers is that you come away with boring characters who are unrelatable. Superman had to go through massive reductions of his power level before writers could even approach his books, and even then only a few know what to do with him. Its already gotten to the point where having rey or kylo ren struggle in a fight is seen as a plot hole. "Why didn't she just float all the guards" or "why didn't he freeze everyone and then kill them?" questions are scattered here and there. Since rey can float a couple tons worth of boulders with no visible effort, when i see her taking cover from an ATST, i'm gonna raise an eyebrow. You always want your characters to feel relatable. Neo didn't get godlike powers until the end of the first film. The next two films struggled under the weight of figuring out how to have stakes for him. They mostly went with him trying to save trinity. Naturally, only the first one is seen as a classic.

    We love seeing someone start from the bottom and evolve into something more than what they were. If someone starts out mindtricking people and beating force prodigies in duels, then one can only ask "what now?". Even the possible rematch in IX has no gravitas because how can rey lose? She already beat him and is now, for no reason, even more powerful than she was then. Snoke also suffers from all of this. He's played up to be ridiculously powerful, so when he dies because he doesn't notice a saber right next to him, people are calling BS. If snoke wasn't corrupting people, force beating people, setting up skype calls,etc. all from across the galaxy, then his death wouldn't have seemed like such a coppout. They've written themselves completely in a corner now. How could any story be interesting when we know that not even explosive decompression will kill our heroes.
     
  3. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Because there is no sense of suspense when the hero can do everything right from the start and wins every fight.

    Even modern adaptions and superhero movies of today don`t do that. Characters don`t get instantly leveled because they want it to happen and hop-skip through their journeys.

    Of course if Star Wars the OT was made today, Luke would be doing a lot more tricks. Vader and Obi Wan would have a fight a la barrel-roll-Yoda in the PT. But he still wouldn`t beat Yoda, his teacher, and Vader, the enemy by movie 2 because then noone in their right mind would feel any sort of suspense over him being victorious in movie 3. It`s like starting a video game with a cheat code. You get through the levels lightning fast but it`s not that exciting overall.
     
  4. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    To paraphrase Han: Lifting rocks is one thing. Lifting enemies? That’s something else.
    The same applies to Kylo freezing people. We’ve only seen him do it to one person at a time (plus one blaster bolt). Doing the same to several highly skilled warriors in hand-to-hand combat is not quite the same.

    As for Snoke... Well, he’s powerful, no doubt about it - but so is Kylo. I have no trouble believing that he’d be able to trick his master by making two similar actions seem like one and the same in his mind.
     
  5. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    We still worried about Rey's powers? I thought we got our answer from Snoke and Luke. Rey is so powerful so quickly because the Force awakened in her to make her Kylo's equal. His exact equal, as the tug-of-war showed. It actually presents them both with a bit of a problem, because it kind of implies that the more Kylo trains, the stronger Rey will get, and vice-versa. Not how the Force works? Psh. The Force doesn't care about your rules, man. :cool:

    Luke's stunt literally killed him. Leia's left her in bad shape. I don't think we've reached the point where we need to introduce kryptonite or ysalamiri, quite yet.
     
  6. MotherNature's SilverSeed

    MotherNature's SilverSeed Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2013
    just thought I'd drop in here to say continuity...and beyond! only to then quietly slip back out.
     
  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Nobody is asking for an explanation, even if it is the most creatively bankrupt one they could manage. People are talking about why accelerated powers are bad for the story.
     
  8. Too-Gon Onbourbon

    Too-Gon Onbourbon Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2016
    It is something to sling at the wall when one doesn't like the movie and something that either raises no concern or is favored when the movie is enjoyed in this series.

    Why? There have been new powers in every movie except Star Wars (by definition) and Rogue One.

    Only different in your mind, it is so much bigger. I'd rather be at the tip of the iceberg than trying to set boundaries.

    Unlearn what you have learned and reach out.
     
  9. BloodStripe

    BloodStripe Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 1999
    Can that be sticky-posted to the top of all threads everywhere?

    I've been in the game since '77, and it makes me genuinely sad to see that all this time later, so many fans seem to view Star Wars as a celebration of dogma and orthodoxy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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  10. Count Zero

    Count Zero Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2014
    The kid pulling the broom isn't anything to get in a twist over. There are people who say they can ACTUALLY do stuff like that, and others vociferously defend them. Some of them make serious money over bending spoons (Uri Gellar).

    I just don't see how broomkid isn't nitpicking.
     
    Nate787 likes this.
  11. Oswin Oswald

    Oswin Oswald Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2017
    The problem with accelerated powers is that it's just a cheap plot device.

    Basically the producers didn't want to have a character have to mature their skills through years of training.

    They didn't want to hire a Rey as a young girl for one movie, start her training with some adult Jedi-like sensei, then in movie 2 jump 15 years forward and have her be battle worthy.

    They wanted to have a new young adult Force user come out of nowhere and without training suddenly be able to do Jedi master level feats without actually having spent decades of their life training for it.

    It's just a plot device to move the story along right out of the gate. They could have resolved this by having Rey be raised by someone like Chirrut Imwe, or someone attached to the old temples, but no, they just pulled Rey out of their asses suddenly a Force wielding lightsaber expert in two days.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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  12. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    Thats right, rationalize people's differing opinions by assigning dishonesty to them. Maybe people think flying through the vacuum is taking things too far. Maybe people don't like when a writer asspulls new force powers solely for the sake of not wanting being bothered to write a plot. (force skype instead of writing an actual way two characters would be put in a situation where they have to speak to on another.). Maybe, just maybe people have legitimate opinions that you don't share with them.
     
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  13. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Counter argument:

    I don’t want to wait 3 films and similar montages for every new hero to barely get to Luke’s level in ROTJ as a result of them not being descendants of the chosen one or having to show their midichlorian read out on screen.

    So long as there is still growth related around increased wisdom and practice it doesn’t matter to me if new Jedi start at higher levels than Luke did 40 years ago. So long as in situations where there’s overlap between established vets that the elder is capable of more advanced feats I see it more as an update for action and power expectations of audiences. Just not a deal breaker for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Look at Aang and Korra from the Avatar: The Last Airbender series for example
    Aang had troubles learning Earth and Firebending but was very in tune with the Spiritual side of the Avatar.
    Korra was proficient with all 4 forms of bending from a young age but was not as in tune with the Spiritual side of the Avatar.
    And with the Sith defeated in ROTJ, the Force manifesting in new ways in different people makes sense imo.
     
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  15. HellasLEAF-Jedi

    HellasLEAF-Jedi Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Well said. Rey has made it through two films without a scratch. Every digit and limb in tact. No idea about the force. No training. And more powerful (apparently) than Kylo Ren..

    And they wonder why there is backlash and Mary Sue comments.
     
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  16. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Telepathy and illusion have both been in canon for a long time. Their combination also isn't unprecedented.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Accelerated powers are very dangerous. Especially if using them while texting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  18. VengefulRepublic

    VengefulRepublic Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    The problem is that there is an established canon of films that we drawn on. A related problem is that it makes a character completely unlikable and unheroic.
     
  19. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    She was stabbed in the arm by a Praetorian guard, and nearly beaten several times in that fight, and the only person she faced beyond all the people she fought growing up on Jakku was infatuated with her, badly wounded, and didn’t want to kill her and wanted to teach her. Snoke absolutely destroyed her and could have easily killed her.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    To me , there's nothing wrong with accelerated or expanded powers provided such a creative decision is used to enhance drama and good writing. Superman is a character often accused of being over-powered... And for some stories, that might actually be an accurate complaint, because the creator uses it as a lazy answer to complex problems, or makes other mistakes that damage the dramatic credibility of a scene. If the creator uses them to create new conundrums and challenges, it can be totally fine and maybe even enhance the experience. For instance... Superman having a date-rape amnesia kiss to wipe out Lois's memory in Superman II? That's bad. Superman having his strength quadrupled and suffering a possible fatal overpowering in All-Star Superman? Good.

    For TLJ, I don't mind it for the little kid, since it's mostly just a visual cue for him having Force powers, and they've earlier mentioned that different people can be inclined towards different Force powers. For Rey, though, I do see a problem, since it largely seems like an unintentional after effect of wanting to tighten up timeline and still keep her apace with Kylo. The lack of intentional creative choices regrading her power undercuts whatever growth she should have in this story, and damages the dramatic impact of her opposition to Kylo by undercutting his skill and experience. It makes the main antagonism of the ST less impressive and tense, and kind of makes Rey more of a static character than she needed to be.
     
  21. Count Zero

    Count Zero Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Right. Totally different from Luke Skywalker, right?
     
  22. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    See, I don’t think Star Wars has ever been this kind of saga:

    “If you don’t Master the Force jump you’ll never complete the Jedi trials and be a real Jedi.”

    (practices and keeps failing)

    (Conflict happens and only a Force jump will work and hero pulls it off)

    That seems like less thematically interesting works to me that need that kind of power dynamic to work. That’s the stuff of Saturday morning cartoons. Heck, even dance movies have that kind of stuff where the hero can’t pull off one thing and then they need to do it at the end to win or save the day. It’s never really been this thing where Obi-Wan says, “Wow, you’ve used the Jedi mind trick. That usually takes most people 4 years of training to learn.” Or, “Good Force pull. If you keep this up you’ll advance to Force back flip next.” There is no real established advancement protocol like some RPG. Different users might just excel in different things. Perhaps the whole point of Luke was that despite being the son of Anakin he surprisingly had more mental hurdles and cynicism than younger people who begin training earlier. Perhaps Rey doesn’t.

    Unless you are making use of that for drama in that way who cares? And Star Wars Hasn’t really made that a key point of emphasis. It’s not like Luke used the X-wing levitation inspiration moment to do something in front of Vader related to that.

    Star Wars has always just featured random training that then leads to random progress.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  23. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Why does Rey need to get maimed to be a hero? And hasn't it been established that she is ben's equal in power but in the light.

    And Rey didn't win at anything. She lost to Snoke and to Ben. She didn't beat anyone in the movie but move some rocks and shoot ties from the falcon. And she fought some praetorian guards
     
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  24. HellasLEAF-Jedi

    HellasLEAF-Jedi Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2009
    She was never in real danger against the guards. A good fight scene though.

    Against Kylo, I get that Kylo held back for a bit, but she then kicked his ass too hard. When Luke fought Vader after Yoda's training for example, and warned he was not ready, he was beaten convincingly. Even if Vader let up on a killing blow, Luke would not have been able to do what Rey did to Kylo.

    As for Snoke, I can't argue. He was more powerful. But in the end Snoke it seams was not in the long term plans for the ST. It is Kylo.
     
  25. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Bingo. Using the Force is really just about achieving the correct state of mind. It's not like each individual ability is some sort of unique complex equation that you have to be patiently instructed how to solve in your head. Feel the force. Let go of your conscious self, and act on instinct. Try not. DO. That's how you use the Force. Wanna jump high? Use the Force. Wanna lift a rock? Use the Force. Wanna mind trick? Use the Force.

    It would be almost funny if it turned out that all this time the traditional, patient, painstaking Jedi training curriculum was actually hindering a Jedi's ability to learn powers that would have ordinarily just developed naturally and instinctively. Now that I think on it, Anakin expressed at least a couple of times in the prequels a feeling that Obi-Wan was holding him back. I'd always assumed that was just frustration and arrogance talking, but maybe Anakin's intuition shouldn't be completely dismissed. And since I have no doubt that Obi-Wan's curriculum would have been scrupulously by-the-book ... hmm.

    Maybe Rey's awakening, where she kind of stumbled into a connection with the Force in a moment of destiny and all these abilities started pouring out, seemingly by pure instinct, is the way it was always supposed to work. The Bendu, the ghost priestess, and the Mortis beings developed their powers somehow. And remember, these are all creatures that were capable of what I would describe as next level stuff, well beyond the stunts the Jedi and Sith were habitually pulling off, maybe matched only by Luke and Ghost-Yoda. I don't know about you, but I get the distinct sense that they didn't learn to use the Force by training for years with Jedi masters.

    Jedi might tell their students to let go and act on instinct, but the rigid structure of their training, with years of exercises and ranks and trials and milestones and whatnot, plants in their students heads, from a very young age, this idea that using the Force is hard, when actually it should be as natural as breathing. Small wonder, then, that they should find it so difficult to "try not."

    A key message of the prequels and TCW, as TLJ helpfully reminded us, was that the Jedi Order actually kinda sucked. This may be just another example of that suckage. It does seem telling that a majority of the strongest Force users we've seen have come from outside the Jedi training system. (And the Sith system, which was just a corrupt offshoot of the Jedi one.) Maybe Snoke grew so powerful because he wasn't trained by Jedi or Sith.

    Just thinking out loud, here ... do with this as you will. But one thing I think people should think on: this notion that the Jedi and Sith were not the ultimate experts in Force usage that we took them to be is an idea that has been seeded in the franchise for quite some time, dating back to TCW animated series, which GL was closely overseeing. So maybe ease up on Rian Johnson a bit, and if you must hate on it, spread the blame around. :)