ST Force Powers In The ST Discussion Thread

The problem with some of these arguments is that if falls short. The sequel trilogy is Disney star wars and not GL star wars. This isn't GL star wars anymore so the rules have changed. If you paid close attention to the official canon clone wars series and Rebels series you would see the progression of the force in ways we only saw in certain parts of the old defunct expanded universe and even then there were restrictions in some of the those stories while others were a bit ridiculous. (whether they were rpg or official statements that you can do this and not that). Disney star wars has changed the envelope. Both TFA and TLJ have changed the force and its philosophy forever and don't forget RO and the Church of the Force and the Protector's of the Kyber. Don't got far, even in Marvel the librarian uses a kyber blaster........In season 4 of Rebels in the first episode, in that super high platform, Ezra uses a jet pack to get up there, yet Kanan can super jump all the way up there without one. Then in another episode you have the loth-wolf that is hardly ever seen, but you know why? Because they go through the mountains and teleport to another hemisphere. Look, I dig some of the arguments, but, this star wars is different and as we move forward there are going to be more canon stuff coming out that will bedazzle the senses. Cause remember, its no longer the flicks, its the novels, comic books, and junior books that are all part of one universe....

 

I think if JJ wanted to go this route (which was in the original plans for ROTJ, right?) they could. TLJ opens things up for sure on that front. But maybe they want to keep the transcendence spiritual and we’ll only see him on the spiritual plane. But if they want to they could Gandalf the White him now. I guess we could retcon the vanishing as him crossing the threshold before coming back.

 

You know me, Pro, I don’t have a problem with the force powers in the ST, but I do think it would have been good to show Rey really straining to lift those rocks at the end. It doesn’t damage the film for me,but that’s one place in particular I think it might have helped given the strain we’ve seen such efforts place on Yoda. Though I guess that was maybe down to his age? I guess we’ve seen other Force users do some crazy **** without batting an eye. But I don’t think it would have hurt. The saber stuff doesn’t bother me because the I think the staff training shows she was always a really good fighter.


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I guess I just see it as she’s instinctively very strong and that she doesn’t have the same confidence issues as Luke. But I agree the compacted time frame compounds the issue if it’s a sticker. I guess there’s a POV where it’s always been a mental thing that could come very naturally to some, but I can see why some don’t like this aspect. I like the Force avatar angle. The Force awakened in her to meet the darkness. I like that. Kind of like a different take on the Chosen One.

 

Rey has gotten informal training from Kylo Ren that seems to be ignored a lot here. She has learned almost everything so far from copying whatever she sees him do.

Also, Kylo was neither trying to kill her (try seduce her) or at full strength when they fought in TFA. Firstly, he was completely off his game emotionally because he had just killed his father, which had the opposite effect on him than what he had intended. Secondly, he wasn't trying to beat her, but rather offer her himself as a teacher. He really wasn't into beating anyone outside of defense and we see this when he barely is bothering with Finn until he gets a slash in and then just quickly disposes of him. He was more interested in making his offer to Rey, testing her skills and figuring out their Force connection than fighting her. Only she was trying to win. And thirdly, he had just been shot by Chewbacca's bowcaster and he was literally bleeding on the snow and hitting himself to mask the pain. He was running on adrenaline. He wasn't even angry with her when she slashed his face. He still just looked impressed and wanted her to join him instead.

People really have a bad habit of discarding all emotional content from the context of these sorts of battles. They're equals in the Force and that's pretty much stated during all that exposition about the Light rising to meet the Dark as its equal. Exactly that is shown when neither one wins the battle over the lightsaber. The gist is, no matter how proficient, experienced, learned and well-trained Kylo gets, the Force will make sure there's his equal out there.

Nobody wants to see Rey get stronger and more impressive in the Force than Kylo. He counted on her being there to fight with him when he took down Snoke. And he certainly gets quite the dark look (he also looks like he hasn't slept in ages) when Snoke tries to take away yet another bit of hope he had for what was happening between him and Rey when Snoke tried to take credit for their Force connection. Yet, we also see that wasn't quite the truth given that the connection holds after Snoke's death and they were feeling it already in TFA ("Don't worry. I feel it, too.") before Snoke really was notified. Snoke thought Luke was Kylo's prophesied equal, not Rey.

He's already taught her far more than she learned from Luke. She wouldn't have a clue that she had the power for mind tricks, mind reading and telekinesis without his guidance. His favorite tricks of stopping blaster fire and immobilizing people aren't things we've seen from her yet. The only part she really stumbled upon before he came into the picture was Force visions and those weren't exactly wanted. They stumbled upon the Force connection mutually and she once again learned from him that that sort of power would be deadly for either of them (and indeed, it was for Luke). Most of her training is actually in the Dark Side of the Force, which Luke freaked out about and saw. She didn't even know enough to understand that could be a bad thing. All of Rey's learning has been accidental, but eager. It's not formal training, but rather stumbling upon it by accident or copying what she sees.

Neither derive their power from the Dark or Light. They derive it from both. They're the new gray Jedi. Yin and yang. Their bodies physically make the symbol during the Praetorian Guard fight. They stalemate each other, but find balance when they work together and a connection that wants them to come together. They both misinterpreted the same vision of what that meant. Both thought it meant that they'd come to the other's side.

 

I don't have a huge problem with the TFA duel. Kylo was wounded. He was only trying to scare her into surrendering. She got a momentary jump on him and he didn't recover.

I don't mind the Throne Room fight because it's awesome.

But lifting the boulders at the end, without any strain? It was tough for Luke at a later stage to hold a few rocks off the ground.

 

I'm with you on the discipline and acquiring knowledge fronts, at least in terms of being able to wield the power one has with enough control to use it wisely. And that very well may be an issue for Rey going forward, regardless of her natural prowess.

But the idea that one's aptitude with the Force being as prosaic as all that doesn't really line up with what we're shown in the OT. Luke's training isn't about power or technique. All of his Force abilities -- levitation, mind tricks, saber combat -- are learned off-screen. He could have lifted the X-Wing on day #1, if only he believed he could. He didn't need to spend more time building up his Force-muscles by lifting more rocks, or what have you. His actual training largely consists of object lessons and tests of character, which he consistently fails, because without belief, focus, and yes, discipline, his "feeble skills" don't amount to much.

That said, I also agree with @Satipo and @Aetius888 that Rey's big moment at the end should have been shown to be a bit taxing. Not too much, just a quick cut back in mid-lift, since it definitely was a milestone (as it were) in her own development. I mean, do or do not, sure, but that doesn't mean the actual doing part is instant and painless.

 

Yeah, I agree. It's not a moment killer, but it's one of several tweaks I would make to the film if it was up to me.

 

I've always felt tha

Yeah, I could see JJ going this way, as he's already pulled quite deeply from Lucas' unexplored concepts in TFA, and the ESB / ROTJ Force netherworld stuff seems ripe for exploration now that this movie has introduced the idea that Rey and Kylo embody the two aspects of the Force, almost in the sense of avatars.

Also, it seems that Rian at least had thought about the possibilities of where this could take Luke in IX.

"When I knew that was his arc, I had the instant tinge of that means that’s the place for him to [die] because what else can he accomplish in the physical realm beyond that? That would be the place emotionally that would have the most impact for him to let himself go. […] I don’t know what’s gonna happen in Episode 9 at all, but there’s actually more potential for more interesting things in terms of his role in the final chapter if he moves into another realm."
http://www.slashfilm.com/future-of-luke-skywalker/

Another thing, which may or may not be on the right track,....but the Force back in TFA, Kylo with the remains of Vader's helmet, the Sith artefacts in the Marvel Lando series...the Acolytes of the Beyond, and their belief that Sith relics retain some link to their former owners.....and maybe even Luke's line " No one's ever really gone", I feel like all of these could be leading towards something involving the Force netherworld.

 

There's also the distinct possibility that the nature of the Force has changed a bit with the destruction of the Sith. IE: Mace: "I think it's time we inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has been diminished."

Rey zipped through learning what we've recognized as the traditional Jedi arts. But at the same time, the bar of what's possible has been raised ... a lot. For all Luke's talk about Rey and Ben's "raw strength", his final stunt at the end showed that there's still a huge gap between raw strength and mastery. That gap hasn't stopped existing, it's just been moved. She's no closer to where Luke is in TLJ than Luke was to Yoda in ESB. Maybe not even as close. Rey is an unprecedentedly quick learner, but she has yet to show any truly next-level stuff ... that's likely going to require some work. It's not like there isn't anything Rey will still need to strive for. I'm anticipating a significant time gap between TLJ and Ep9, so we'll see where she's at then.

 

Did you see in the art book that at one point Rick Carter and co were discussing how the spiritual plane might be the final battle front for the Jedi?

 

Yeah, after watching TFA I was like: hope they include the Chosen One story. But after TLJ, I embrace the fact that this is a soft reboot and hope that there will be 12 Episodes (plus Anthology movies) in total, meaning that Episode 9 might end with Kylo victorious and Rey in great dispair. Then the final trilogy with new struggles and a happy end as great as in ROTJ.
I'd like that. TLJ is the first Disney Star Wars that makes me look forward to more movies with trust in Disney.

 

i think the time gap (if there is one) will be a few months at most and a few weeks at least.

Now i have been on Wookiepedia for years and i have seen many of the strange Force Powers of the EU.New Force Powers are just a thing i think should be in every Star Wars movie that has Jedi(or Darksider) in it just to add to the world building.Does not have to be big just say a Jedi sings or some thing and that makes plants grow(encourghs them?). Small and or simple i think would be best.The ol' less is more route of story telling.None the less what i have seen with the way Disney is going is that we will at least get New Force Powers in the movies and more in the books/comics.And that makes me hopeful for some awsome moments.(Thought Bomb any one?)

 

I think it's reasonable to quibble with the time frame, even if there are reasonable in-universe explanations. I have that same quibble with ESB. Frankly a lot of that could have been overcome by stretching the fleet "chase" out of over weeks instead of a few days.

Putting that aside, I think most of what Rey has done so far were relatively simple uses of the Force, or directly related to what was happening at the moment. Force pre-cognition (and it's relationship to lightsaber fighting) would seem to be the simplest and most instinctual. Rey got owned by Kylo's Force skills in their first encounter, but when he tried to do so a second time, she was more ready, and perhaps BECAUSE he went more gently at first, she had time to react... almost like training. And Force pulls and levitation (which seem to be basically the same thing) also seem fairly basic. It's the first "magic" we see Luke perform.

This last bit is not a reply to you specifically... just my thoughts on the concept of Force powers. I prefer not to think of specific "Force Powers" personally. There is just the Force. It seems like there are some pretty standard ways to use the Force, but there is nothing within the Force that limits that. So the idea of "new" Force powers is nonsensical to me. I could even see "new" Force Powers coming from a completely self-taught Force user, since they may have approached interaction with the Force in a non-conventional way.

 

Yes, interesting stuff. Reminded me of this quote of Carter's:

"What is the Force? Its when you recognize that it was always there, like Kansas for Dorothy. But that doesn’t mean that every aspect of the Force is known yet. So when we get to this third act in the Star Wars series [the Sequel Trilogy], there’s more to be revealed. And that reveal is going to involve things from the past that were right in front of us all along.” - Rick Carter, The Art of Star Wars The Force Awakens, page 249

so, have we seen this new aspect of the Force now, or is it something still to come?

 

Rick Carter's influence in all this is fascinating. He clearly led a lot of the early ST blue-sky thinking phase, and it seems he was pretty much the guy that RJ spoke with first after a lunch with LK.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about Luke's big presence in the last episode. I think JJ said once, he left Luke for the very last scene in TFA, because when he tried to use him earlier, he overshadowed everyone else. And look at TLJ. Many complain that Rey was sidelined in the last act. Also it required two peak acts. Usually there are 3 acts - exposition, rising tension and resolution. We had two resolution acts: Snoke's death (with Rey/Kylo story resolution), Holdo's sacrifice and almost an execution of Finn and Rose was peak moment of third act and Luke's and Kylo's confrontation was a fourth act. Luke was so important, that he required an undivided attention and separate act. Anything less and fans would be outraged (and for some it's still not enough). I doubt his role in the next movie will be bigger than Yoda's in TLJ.

 

I think it could be more than that, and I think that for a couple of reasons:

1 - it gives a natural opportunity to explore a more positive Luke should they want to. I love the character in TLJ, but I'd be happy to see more of him now he's re-engaged.
2 - He can still offer guidance to Rey, and it makes more sense coming from him than the other force ghosts.
3 - He can provide a foil to Kylo Ren in a way we've not seen with force spirits before.
4 -I think we could see more action / conflict on the spirit plane - potentially, which would be something new.
5 - now that Carrie has passed, Luke may take on some of the family angle that she would have done.

I don't think it's 100% a given, and I agree with what you're saying, but I certainly think it's possible.

 

All this so very much!

Like you, I'm not sure they will do any of that. But I think it has great story-telling potential. I think the ball is left hanging over the plate. JJ could leave it there and say all that stuff happens off-screen (or not at all), but if he really wants to take Star Wars somewhere it hasn't been before, he has some fairly obvious routes to take there that would tie the movies together AND do something different.

 

I agree. Actually, after looking through the Art of TLJ book, I went back and thumbed through the TFA book too, and it's fascinating to see some of the themes ( mostly specific to Luke's story ) that we saw in TLJ apparently being worked on in their infancy during the concept art phase for the first movie. Metaphorical imagery, such as Luke being buried beneath a rising tide of sand, the image of a figure weilding a blue / red double bladed saber ( which seems to be am early exploration of the idea of the dark and light coming together ) even Luke's saber totem seems to be in there. Blue crystal, though.

 

Yes, it seems a Luke haunted by the failures of the past was in there from when George was still involved.


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