Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

I think this is a pretty good summary of the pros and cons of following canon. I agree sometimes it can be constraining, but I think some constraints are needed for consistency. It's like when they talk about "Yes and" in improv classes. If the actor starts the scene in a grocery store, and another actor comes in and says "No we're not in a store, we're on the moon!" then it breaks the audience immersion.

 

That's how it's ALWAYS BEEN since well.....maybe the Prequels....Like seriously references books and other stuff made Ep 1-6 really cohesive in it's own right.

Things like the Essential Guide to Warfare essentially makes the entire Bantam Era really expansive with all the Warlords and how they fought each other and all that good stuff.

I think it depends on how much we willing to forgive, except and take UBER SERISOUSLY.

Like for example do we get bent out of shape about Ashoka's lightsaber color in Clone Wars and The Ashoka novel....because at the end of the day...She still fights Maul on Mandalore.

Then we have even bigger questions like Anakin entire persona ....his TCW persona is very different from the one we see in the Prequel (Although one could argue it's kinda similar to what we see at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith) but also lets face it...Revenge of the Sith was written with Anakin NOT having a Apprentice in mind. So...How do you deal with that inconsistency, even though Ashoka is now the most important person in Canon.

And then obviously you have more clunky retcons like Poe's backstory, which then squared in with stuff like the latest Poe novel that tries to make his smuggling life and his New Republic Pilot life fit all together.

I get the sense that the Sith Eternal is essentially the HYDRA of Star Wars...They have higher up members in everything, even if everyone isn't aware that they are being ruled over the Sith Eternal.

First Order had Snoke and probably Pryde as the direct connection to Palpatine but someone like Hug probably had no clue and thought the First Order was it's own thing.

 

It was so before the Prequels.

 

You can have continuity without any notion of canon.

The set of books that started with Trek's DS9 relaunch in 2000 was never intended to last 20 years. The working assumption was there would be new Trek TV and, while not canon, it is conventional that Trek books adjust to whatever is done by film and TV, but that didn't happen until the last year or so with Picard. Nonetheless, even though it could be blown up at any time - and those buying the books accepted that as a stated condition - the writers and editors built an impressive continuity. So much so that it is getting a trilogy wrap-up later this year and maybe, depending on how that plays out, a creative continuation.

None of it is "canon".

 

@Sauron_18

However with the First/Final Order naming going on...it does make me now wonder.

I have to imagine now Snoke DID come into the picture BEFORE the Imp Remnant that Sloane was leading was OFFICIALLY named the First Order....Otherwise either A.) Palpatine named the Final Order as a reaction to that Remannt being called the FIRST order....or B.) Villains are just get lucky with their names. ;p

 

I don't get how the Star Trek expanded universe works. Is it all considered the equivalent of fan-fiction? Why would someone be interested in those stories if they're not considered canon?

 

Because a good story is a good story that's why.

 

Eh, okay...but still, why hand out the franchise license if you're just going to say all this spin-off stuff is non-canon?

 

People enjoy stories....If anything I think that's a healthier thing to do. Means all the dumb debates about Canon are null in void and people can just enjoy it on their own terms, and if it gets retconned then...Oh well...it was never canon to begin with.

Star Wars could learn a lesson from Trek in that regards.

I'm a Doctor Who fan who LOVES Big Finish with his heart and soul and I know the Tv show will never address any of that stuff and will sometimes actively override it with something else sometimes. Even though Doctor Who is wibbly wobbly timey wimey

 

Idea, concept and, in a way, greater freedom than if they were deemed "canon". Unlike Wars, there wasn't a smokescreen game played of "yes, it is Canon, but" - I like that honesty.

In my case the idea of a continuation, even if it wasn't canon, for DS9 got my attention. Then the stories were damn good, then other stories got built on, like KRAD's Gorkon series, then they did the insanity that was Destiny - a story that TV or film would never do because it was just too big. A full-on Borg invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants involving thousands of cubes.

It wasn't canon, but the writers acted like the continuity mattered and that gave it far more weight than you would expect.

 

Hah, yeah. He must have. I mean the Aftermath trilogy ends with Sloane dropping the words “first order,” but not in the context of the political group, it’s just Wendig winking at the audience. But the Imperials were seemingly out in the unknowns for a while before reorganizing formally, so I’d imagine Snoke was the Order’s only Supreme Leader before he died. And that’s, of course, taking the extra complexity of the books into consideration. The movies probably take it as a given that Snoke was the First Order’s founder.

I’m a bit curious about what the out-of-universe reasoning was for the First Order’s name, though, especially considering we were originally unlikely to encounter a Final Order. My only guess is that it’s a riff on the Third Reich, in which case the “First” and “Final” pairing is a retcon. I still remember how ominous the name sounded when it was first leaked... something that’s unfortunately no longer the case.

Another thing to consider is what the First Order’s name would have meant to the New Republic Senators and Systems who in the earliest formulation of the backstory were more involved with its founding. If they were reacting to what they perceived as the Republic’s chaos and disorder, but did not want to necessarily brand their new organization as the Empire, that adds an extra dimension. Of course the Order itself is NOT an Empire, it’s primarily an army and a fleet, so there’s that real distinction. But going beyond that, it seems to have been a name under which a new separatist movement could be organized. Or it could have been, if they’d decided to get into anything remotely like political world-building. As is we’re left with three distinct factions that make up the First Order: the Imperial fleet, former Imperial systems, and Sith loyalists.

A part of me wonders if, in Abrams’s mind, the fleet in Exegol is even a newly built fleet, or if it’s meant to be the old Imperial fleet refurbished. That was the impression I got when we first saw it in trailers. It reminded me of how the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica still had their older ships and models around, they were just not part of the frontline. There’s actually more than one parallel I’ve seen to BSG with the First Order, so I wouldn’t be totally surprised if that had an influence.

 

My understanding that the Sith Fleet Star Destroyers were actually bigger than regular Imp-class destroyers, although not as big as the First Order's ships.

 

Yup - they have two underbelly hangers on either side of the superlaser, in place of the one that a regular ISD has.


They are longer than ISDs but shorter than Resurgents (2406 m instead of 2916m) Given that they have ISD proportions though (the Resurgent is a bit flatter with much less dorsal superstructure) they might actually be of comparable mass.

 

I'm still curious how this came about out-of-universe. The Xyston-class is obviously an Imperial-I with that extra cannon bolted on, so why not keep the same size instead of this silly "it was scaled up proportionally" explanation? And if it was just a mistake by someone who couldn't be bothered to check Wookieepedia, why not retcon it back down to 1600m?

 

@Sauron_18

I do wonder if we'll get a situation that Sloane was "In her mind" rebuilding the Empire before Snoke was like "Nope....we are something new, and we're calling ourselves THE FIRST ORDER"

Of course the Phasma Novel mentions how Sloane was at a meeting organized by Brendol Hux to join with the "FIRST GENERATION of First Order Leaders" (Lots of first) but that's just the million dollar question of was Sloane ever part of First Order proper.

The only thing that would throw me off about it is that Palpatine said (In a Fortnight Promo...and the Novel) "The Work of Generations is Complete" and it does seem that he's been working on this force for QUITE some time...Not like this only took a year but still, seems like this was part of Palpatine's end goal....That and possessing a new body.

I mean i always felt there are at least TWO DISTINCT First Orders.

The one see in Bloodline and Star Wars Resistance which is the one made up of Centrist Worlds....I call it "Public First Order" sure they have Stormtrooper armor and officer uniforms but they are "Harlmess" to the galaxy

Then the TRUE First Order we see in TFA and TLJ (and TROS) with the large Star Destroyers, Supremeacy and mega weapons!


Then of course the Sith Loyalist who are manipulating everything behind the scenes on Exegol building the FINAL ORDER of Xiston Class Star Destroyers.

I believe even in the TROS novelization said that the Red Sith Troopers were taken from the best First Order kidanpped soldiers and "Dissapered" to Exegol.

 

It's Sloan who sets the First Order as being "be better".

A charitable interpretation is she wanted to build a less harsh Imperial system. But what it played out as was next generation tech designed against successful Rebel attacks. No more vulnerable command bridges or walkers being toppled.

Of course, with what Alphaber Squadron adds to the both the nature of the Empire and Operation Cinder, Sloan is shown as an idealistic fool at best.

 

I mean that's what cool about the entire Post Endor Era is because you trimmed the fat from the Empire yeah you get a more streamlined organization but that's worse because now you have all the true believers.

All the opportunist and "I'm doing with for a paycheck" people are gone.

(Those people were still bad don't get me wrong)

 

It all depends on what those true believers are believing.

The Aftermath trilogy allows for the possibility of the Empire becoming better in a way that the Alphabet Squadron one does not. Which combined with what is known of the Final Order tends to seal the deal on just how irrevocably evil it is, on a systemic level.

 

Which I’m a big fan of since Legends in my mind fell a little to much for the trap of “well Pellaeon is good and the Empire is better” for it.

at least to me.

Is Kylo Ren thoughts in the adult novel or junior novel?

 

Where Imperial ideals are concerned Legends ran something of a long con that many fell for. But it also recognised you can't obliterate your enemy without becoming it, thus a way had to be found to live with the Remnant.

That it can be argued to be a mistake courtesy of the Legacy comics makes for an interesting line of thought.

 

@Sinrebirth

Is there anything that would say that some of these ships also found themselves with OTHER people? Like IDK...Sloane and Eclispe ended up one place in the UR, some other ships found Snoke, while maybe some (Maybe led by a certain Moff Gideon ;p) found themselves going in the direction where a certain blue Grand Admiral was and wound up in whatever plans he had???

 

Organized chaos...something Palpatine/Snoke would take advantage of.