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Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    For those of us over here in the cheap seats, could someone try to make it a little clearer (read: dumb it down a touch) why the former Imperial territories left over after the dissolution of the Imperial government wouldn't be considered a "rump Empire"? If I check Wikipedia for the definition of "rump state," I read:
    Further in the article it cites a.) Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union and b.) the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia following the dissolution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia among its examples of rump states. Those examples would seem to suggest that if a government "goes away," a state left behind would at least arguably qualify as a rump state. (Disclaimer: again, not a history or poli sci nerd. Just going by Wikipedia.)

    I want to understand it all better because to me, the sequence of events in the immediate post-Empire galaxy seems pretty clear. The Empire formally dissolves thanks to the Galactic Concordance; the Imperial remnants left behind (a.k.a. the "rump Empire" - the broadcaster in Lost Stars even goes a little further and actually calls it "the Empire") are bound by a treaty that hems them into specific areas of the galaxy; they spend a brief period of time (months) in a cold war with the New Republic before they are annexed and the Empire goes away for realsies. This interpretation seems pretty consistent with virtually every source as far as I can tell, but I read frequently in this thread that we're supposed to ignore early references to the rump Empire, the cold war, etc. and I haven't been able to follow precisely why.
     
  2. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge

    Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2006
    In short, it's because of inconsistent and/or conflicting sources.

    Disclaimer: I have not read Lost Stars, or the Aftermath Trilogy, so anything I say here is either from what I recall, or gleamed from this thread.

    1) At around the time Ep. VII info was first coming out, there were some vague references to an Imperial state that existed outside of the First Order. Emphasis on the word "vague," as I recall it being more of an interpretation.

    2) Later on, Lost Stars was released which, as you note, makes reference to some form of Imperial remnant/rump state post-Jakku.

    3) The third Aftermath book, Empire's End, published after Lost Stars, mentions the Concordance, and from what I gather it stipulates that the Empire must completely dissolve, ie: No Imperial state or remnant at all. There might be a couple of sources around that say the same, so that's why the "ignore Imperial remnant, cold war, etc. references" is used.

    Someone who actually has those books could probably answer better than I can, but hopefully that helps a little bit.
     
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  3. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    It seems like there's actually conflict behind the scenes but that The Positive Fan's description in the final paragraph of that quote is a very good retcon.
     
  4. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I'd agree with that...Definitly a evolution of the overall story as time has passed since the start of NuCanon to today.
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Sure. So the problem with it is exactly the issue that you mentioned at the end -- that the earlier sources make reference to a state that is the Empire. The Galactic Concordance we got in Empire's End is fairly clear that the Empire is gone -- dissolved entirely. Other recent sources refer to cleanup operations against Imperial remnants and things of that nature. Both of these things are inconsistent with the idea of successors to the Empire that were disarmed and subject to the treaty.

    Can it be finessed? Sure it can -- that's exactly what you've tried to do, and we can figure out some way to read the older TFA-era stuff together with the newer stuff. Independent non-aligned worlds which haven't joined the NR but are forced to disarm and get rid of any Imperial forces or stormtroopers would fit the bill, especially since we know from recent sources like Propaganda that the New Republic does NOT span the whole known galaxy like the Empire did, or even the Old Republic. Many of those independent worlds could be planets that agreed to disarm but didn't want to join the NR.

    I think the explanation you've come up with is perfectly fine -- it's just the idea of there being an official Galactic Empire or an official Imperial Remnant (like in the EU) that I don't think is tenable any longer.

    Just to clarify, although I suspect that we shouldn't look for precise legal terminology in Star Wars, a rump state is either 1.) a continuation of a previously larger or more powerful state or 2.) a recognized successor state that inherits the legal personhood and the obligations of the former state. It has nothing to do with the government; the government is just what runs the state.

    In the EU, we saw a war between two powers -- the Empire and the New Republic. In canon though, it's portrayed more like a true civil war -- the New Republic replaces the Galactic Empire as the galactic government, but the galactic state is (notionally) the same. Mon Mothma derives her powers from the emergency powers granted to Palpatine and formally hands them over in the first Aftermath book; she's making clear that she regards her government and her senate as the continuation of the original one.

    There's no acknowledged continuation of the Empire after the Concordance. It's not like the Soviet Union, where the former Soviet republics and the international community at large recognized Russia inherited the USSR's personhood and obligations. It's not like Yugoslavia where other nations were created and declared independence, leaving Serbia as the last one standing. The Empire is gone.

    But could the treaty apply to a bunch of former Imperial worlds off doing their own things and who agreed to disarm and got annexed in waves, like you suggest? Yeah, totally. Especially because these sorts of transitions take time, no matter what paper was signed on Coruscant.
     
  6. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Thanks for the great responses everyone! I've now got quite a bit more of a handle on all this than I did before, particularly the problems with the early "rump Empire" references. It's not insurmountable by any means, but I understand now what everyone was talking about and am all for assuming that the reference in the TFA:VD was just an early idea that didn't survive how the story evolved (or perhaps was just an imprecise use of terminology on Pablo's part) and can be overlooked.
     
  7. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I wonder what became of Mas Amedda after the Concordance was signed. Perhaps he found his way into the underground Sith Shrine in the depths of the Imperial Palace and found a Sith Holocron and stole away from Coruscant to take control of the Acolytes of Beyond.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  8. BeesInABar

    BeesInABar Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2015
    Honestly, everyone makes fun of the Willrow Hood issue, but I mourn the loss of Wendig's Vader series because I wanted to know what happened with the Acolytes of Beyond.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  9. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Yeah I don't understand not having been excited about that series.
     
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  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    ...why would he do that when he was put in charge of Coruscant?
     
  11. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    [​IMG]
     
  12. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Mas Amedda, Sate Pestage, and the remaining Imperial elites are running Coruscant and partying like it's 1999. Empty space beer cans in the Jedi Temple, kegs in the room of a thousand fountains, throwing cigarette butts at holocrons . . . the People's Party Republic of Coruscant.
     
  13. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Is the rump Empire just...Coruscant, now?

    Because I can get down with that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
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  14. BeesInABar

    BeesInABar Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2015
    I remember a throwaway line from the Kedpin Shoklop story in Canto Bight where he says his company rewarded him with a trip to Canto Bight, and he'd been there long enough to remember when the prize was a trip to Coruscant. Maybe it became less of an attraction as Mas Amedda's little fiefdom.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  15. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Our details about Coruscant under the New Republic are still relatively scant. It was governed by Amedda for a time, but he was just a puppet ruler that was under New Republic control. Eventually the world votes to join the New Republic, as by the time of Bloodline it has two senators. One is an Imperial nostalgic, the other is a warhawk who is a big supporter of the New Republic Defense Force.

    I suspect that Amedda is either dead or retired by the time of Bloodline. Or he was voted out once Coruscant setup a provisional government following the signing of the Concordance.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  16. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    I would actually find it more interesting if Mas Amedda as making a go of it...it is still Coruscant...where 2 of the biggest and oldest hyperlanes start. Maybe he sets the place up as a planet wide free market and is successful at it...along with dealing with all the headaches.
     
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  17. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    I do wonder if Coruscant remains officially known as 'the Galactic Empire', even as a member of the New Republic.
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    That's what I think.

    But the provisional government following the signing of the Concordance is Amedda's government.

    There's a long time between EE and Bloodline, and Amedda isn't young. I suspect he runs it for a period of time and either retires or passes away.

     
  19. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    A government that is "toothless" and monitored by New Republic "overseers". I'd love for stories set in this period, as I'd love to see poor Amedda miserable and powerless. :p

    My assumption is that eventually Coruscant sets up some sort of planetary government that takes into account the needs of the working classes in the bowels of the planet, as they were a key part of the anti-Imperial insurgency that kept Coruscant a mess during the final year of the war.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  20. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    But also it points out that he took over leadership of a troubled world. I think the NR realized they already had their work cut out for them with the rest of the galaxy, and a city-planet devastated by civil war was more trouble than they wanted to handle. Not to mention all the entrenched Imperial leadership still on the planet -- if anything fit the whole "we had a cold war and then we waited for them to go away," that would be Coruscant.

    Perhaps! Certainly we know for sure that Coruscant joined the NR by Bloodline. And it would be hard to imagine it was still in the throes of conflict during that whole period. But then again, by the time of Bloodline, it was the galaxy as a whole that was in trouble -- and Canto Bight in TLJ showed us very clearly that the New Republic, despite its egalitarian political messaging, did little to change the de facto class situation in the galaxy.

    I'd be very curious to see sequel-era Coruscant. Our sources have been very very mysterious about it, aside from occasional references to characters visiting it and things like that. About all I can say with reasonable certainty, is that it's 90% likely that Coruscant is still with the NR as of the time of TFA.

    If it were a FO world, it just... I think that would have warranted mention. But who knows, the vagueness seems deliberate so as to keep all the options open.
     
  21. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Could be the site of a rump Empire, still. We never found out what happened to Amedda's government, and if it didn't still keep the claim of being the Galactic Empire. After all, the New Republic recognized that in order to sign the surrender. Like I've said before, if a Legends-type Imperial faction ends up drawing money, you can bet for sure that Disney's going to go for it. Whether it does it well is another question.
     
  22. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2009
    A potential source of inspiration could be Trantor in the second half of Second Foundation and in Foundation's Edge.

     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
  23. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Time for a revival of this Thread

    Star Wars Explained did a video doing some "Explaining" of everything we know about the Imp Remnant for anyone keeping track

     
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  24. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    That pretty much lines up with my idea that we are going to see Imperial remnants pop up that are more similar to criminal organizations than states enacting a continuation of the war. I can also see states that were formerly Imperial that have not joined the New Republic still being Imperial rump states in all but name continuing on and causing some political issues for the Republic down the line.

    Once again my memory is a little hazy on the details of Empire's End because I haven't read through it recently enough and I have it packed away so I can't access it.

    Is Explained's info on Randd pretty accurate? I always thought the implication was that his forces WERE given rendezvous coordinates seeing he was out in the Unknown Regions, but if this is true then Randd is out there somewhere with crazy Nash Windrider about to do something crazy.

    Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
     
  25. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    That video is based on a false premise that Alphabet Squadron takes place after Empire's End. Matt Martin has specified that it's pre-Jakku.