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Senate Gun Control

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Of course he doesn’t, he thinks high levels of mass incarceration is the only appropriate crime deterrent, despite the fact that solutions you have described have kept crime much lower in actual first world democracies than it is in the US.

    And if we’re talking about people being “worthy” of gun ownership, I think we can eliminate anyone who believes that “sometimes murder is justified” or anyone who thinks animal cruelty is funny.
     
  2. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    You don't disagree at all in concept, you also want your own draconian rules. There's some issues of scale and who to target, but you're not fundamentally any different.
     
  3. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Still with this guy?
     
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  4. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Yeah, don't you all get tired of the same circular arguments with this guy page after page after page?
     
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  5. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Social services as in helping people temporarily to get back on their feet is fully justified and worthy. So are programs that make actual investments in people, their cummunities and their future. Meaning, they become self-sufficient. NYS had some programs to assist with disadvantaged people get small businesses going, job training, etc. The results? Mostly good with some people that took part in the programs getting out of the doldrums. It can be done. It wasnt just relegated to specific areas either as poverty very much exists in many places.

    What we have now and some of what gets championed is just straight handouts which last.... well....forever? Is that really what we want? Entire groups of people living on the Govt freebies? I dont see the long term benefit. So yes, some social services and realistic programs that help people help themselves and make good decisions sound great to me? But not perpetual handouts, nope.

    I have supported required gun safety training courses for any gun buyer. Even a renewal every few years being required. Its a good idea and teaches the very important basics. Make that a law. ;)
     
  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview & Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I can support that. As I said before I don’t think guns should be banned outright. But training should be required. And some types of guns should either be very tightly controlled or not allowed for civilian use at all.
     
  7. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Yep, or make owning some semi automatic weapons similar to how pistol permits are handled here in NY: a 6-8 month background check process is required with notarized references, criminal record investigations and all sorts of stuff before they give you the permit. Requiring a special permit for certain weapons is reasonable to me. Every pistol you buy is tied to the permit and YOU are responsive for it and anything that the pistol gets used for. In other words, don’t let it get stolen. Bad idea.

    One thing though about the chances of the average person suffering from gun violence: it’s pretty low compared with many other things. This link( it’s from 2018 but still appears legit)has a chart about 1/3 of the way down with the chances of death from various causes. Some that are ahead of guns are quite eye opening. Not undermining those that have suffered a gun incident or anything like that. Just thought it was interesting.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/us-gun-death-murder-risk-statistics-2018-3
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2021
  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Iowa is seeing record gun deaths for their state, but a law (passed by Republicans, of course, all Democrats voted against) just went into effect allowing people to buy handguns without training or permit.

    It will make things worse, as it has in other states that did the same thing. Impulsive gun purchases will increase dramatically, they'll be used in impulsive suicides and homicides, they'll be resold illegally when the buyers get bored with them, they'll be stolen and used in crimes, more untrained people walking around in public with guns will lead to more deaths during what would otherwise be unarmed conflict. etc. The result will be even more gun deaths.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Let’s see chances of dying in a mass shooting or assault by gun in the US as compared to actual first world democracies and then we’ll have valid statistics.

    Until then, I don’t care if I’m more likely to die of heart disease, that does not make the amount of gun deaths here (which last I checked, were 25 times higher per capita than that of actual first world democracies) acceptable.

    Neither “hey look over there! Heart disease!” or “Hey look over there! Third world country run by gangs [due to the US toppling their legitimate government because it was ‘too socialist’]!” is an acceptable point of comparison or deflection.
     
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  10. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Heart disease isnt an item that stands out though on that list. Things that do? Falling. ANY motor vehicle accident. And many of the other things that are more likely to kill you than a gun. The point is that if your goal is to save lives then you have much bigger fish to fry than guns. If your goal is to get rid of guns then thats a different story altogether.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    My goal is to get the level of mass shootings and overall gun deaths per capita as low as that in actual first world democracies.
     
  12. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    If anyone feels like pointing this out to him (it looks like he's back to hiding things he doesn't know how to deal with), this doesn't even appear to be true on the face of it. For 2019, the US saw 36,120 motor vehicle deaths and 39,707 firearm deaths. So dying from a firearm would be more likely than dying from a car.
     
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  13. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    This is so tedious. This same exact argument with the same exact details has been raised a dozen times in this thread. Yes, cars kill a lot of people. This is one reason why we're proponents of public transportation, it would greatly reduce deaths by transportation. It's stupid to compare cars to guns when you consider necessity and function. Transportation is necessary; civilians owning guns almost always isn't. When a gun serves it's function properly, it kills; a car doesn't.

    You're not going to succeed in distracting us by telling us about automobile deaths; we already know about them. There may be bigger fish to fry but gun violence is still a problem that needs to be dealt with.

    Like what? Of the 17 items listed above "assault by gun", eight of them are diseases. Does death by disease stand out as surprising? We're doing something about most of them, or at least trying. You oppose efforts to provide preventative healthcare that would significantly reduce the number of deaths by heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. We're trying to reduce those by providing universal healthcare, but you're opposed to it.

    Of course drugs, alcohol, and suicide are high on the list. We have a lot of deaths by despair in the US. Suicide by gun is the #2 method of suicide, no wonder the article specifically chose to separate suicide by gun from "assault by gun".

    Of course general murder is going to be ahead of gun assault. Not surprising at all. Gun murders are a subset of all murders.

    The only ones left are "any injury", which is extremely general, chronic lung disease, "any accident", another extremely general cause of death, stroke, Alzheimer's, kidney disease, and poisoning (includes drug overdose).

    So what else stands out? What are the many other things that stand out?


    Probably a result of separating firearm deaths into suicide and assault instead of keeping them together.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2021
  14. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Yeah, but like I mentioned a few pages back, guns make murdering much easier. A crazy guy with a knife in a shopping mall simply is not going to be able to kill or injure as many people as he could with a gun. Ultimately, the only real solution is that we're just going to have to have fewer people with guns. So, the mandatory gun buyback program they implemented in Australia, that would be a good model to follow. A lot of Australians gun owners didn't want to give up their guns either, but to their credit they eventually did the right thing without making a huge fuss over it, and their society is better off for it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2021
  15. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Well, thanks for sticking to your "guns" and making your point. I disagree with disarming law abiding citizens and always will. And I can’t get behind any buyback program. The "right" thing is subjective but again, point taken. Honestly, we’ll all be long gone from this earth before the USA ever did anything like that so it’s sort of a moot point. Better to do what we can to keep guns out of the wrong hands versus devoting energy trying to confiscate them all.

    Yes, a madman with a gun can do more damage than with a knife or any other non-firing weapon. But, as that chart I posted shows, you have a much greater chance of being killed or badly injured by numerous other things than gun violence. Mass shooting death chances are even lower versus general gun violence. Yes, mass shootings or any shootings are awful. But so is having a loved one killed in an auto accident or any other of the things on that list. We can respectfully disagree here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
  16. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    So, the strong implication here is that, based on your own admission, you should not object to us disarming you. After all, you're *not* a law-abiding citizen. You've openly stated as much.

    And without the integrity to own up to it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
  17. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Nay-Sayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Yes, and we do things to mitigate those other causes of death as well. Another way of looking at your argument would be to say “lots of people die of heart attacks, so we shouldn’t do anything about cancer.”
     
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  18. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 28, 2006
    What, you really think QGM would say something akin to "well people die from the flu so we shouldn't do stuff about COVID"?

    Oh wait.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
  19. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    For someone that claims to just despise the NRA, he sure does use a lot of their talking points virtually verbatim, doesn't he?
     
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  20. Juliet316

    Juliet316 SFTC Bonanza & 5X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Apr 27, 2005
  21. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 12, 2017
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  22. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2000
  23. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 6, 2002
    Nationals game suspended after shooting outside the park. Four reportedly wounded.
     
  24. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 28, 2006
    Wrong Washington team
     
  25. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    The 6th Inning Run for Cover will be a new baseball tradition.
     
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