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Senate Gun Control

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview & Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I think I had 2 lockdown drills in my school career. Maybe I just forgot the rest. I do agree that there should be some warning there. Tell the kids they need to take this seriously. But warn them.
     
  2. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

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    Dec 26, 2000
    Just the fact that you even have active shooter drills at schools, in a supposedly developed country, is insane. Insane.

    I mean, I was an exchange student in the US when I was 15, but there's no way in hell I'd send my daughter there to be an exchange student. In an actual civilised European country, yes. In the US, no.
     
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  3. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 28, 2006
    Eh, kids are substantially more likely to be shot and killed outside of school than in it. Something like for every 1 kid shot and killed in a school, 40 are shot and killed outside of school. Not that bad considering school accounts for roughly 1/6th of waking hours, it seems. I think one can argue they part of why school shootings get the attention they do because often the victims of school shootings are a very different demographic from other homicides.

    As far as risk goes, the roads are more dangerous than the schools are. It's not that it's not an issue, but it doesn't do any good to disproportionately frame it.
     
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  4. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2009
    We seriously need some gun law overhauls here. It has to be made harder to acquire weapons, especially certain types. Need some common sense, logical rules added. Too many politicians either go too far or are "scared" to get anywhere near gun regulations. I rarely hear any good proposals. The issue seems well out of the spotlight now though.
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    True, which says quite a bit about US gun violence overall and nothing good.
     
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  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview & Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Also your chances of being shot are still super low. However the fact that traffic deaths and gun violence deaths are more or less equal in America is a huge a problem.
     
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  7. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 28, 2006
    Yeah, it's a problem, just one that benefits from some proportionality. I don't think the fear that has surrounded either mass shootings or terrorism (not mutually exclusive) is healthy because they're both not as common as many people seem to act (though, related, I also don't think suicides should be grouped in with homicides on a general bodily autonomy basis).
     
  8. Juliet316

    Juliet316 SFTC Bonanza & 11X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Apr 27, 2005
    WTF is wrong with people.
     
  9. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview & Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Rittenhouse (almost certainly spelling that wrong) is likely to walk away a free man at this point. I can already tell what will happen from here. He’ll wright a book and the right will gobble it up. A few years after that he’ll run for congress and win. I am like 90% certain he’s a free man though
     
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  10. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 28, 2006
    What would be particularly telling is if he walks on even the entirely indisputable charges. There is, indeed, reasonable doubt that is going to be leveraged here for the shootings, but he had a gun he couldn't legally have when he was somewhere he shouldn't legally be. If he walks on those, then this is well in the realm beyond how it's argued in court and into a bias that is disconnected from the facts.

    Which isn't to say he *should* walk on the other charges, only that those will hinge a lot more on a competent prosecution
     
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  11. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    I watch some of this trial earlier on the internet. The man shot in the arm was terrible witness for the prosecution. He get expose I think as untruthful to the court and to the police, was carry weapon unlawfully (conceal with no valid permit) himself and agreed that he got shot in arm because he point his loaded gun at the defendant Kyle.
     
  12. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

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    Presumably, if unlawfully carrying a weapon makes them untruthful, then Rittenhouse will also be considered unreliable.
     
  13. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    It was not that which make him untruthful. He walk back on statements he made to police. He ‘forget’ small detail of holding a gun himself when he tell police he got shot. He say he was not chasing the defendant down the road (when he was on video doing exactly this) etc I do not care what happen to this Kyle Rittenhouse, but the witness did him a favour it appear to me.
     
  14. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview & Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Right now I expect rittenhouse to walk. Expect the worse so you won’t be so devastate by the American justice system
     
  15. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    This is divisive case and seem to polarise opinion depend on political alignment. But aside from these, and the question of whether defendant should have been at the town, the video evidence show that in each time, he was running away from crowd of people chasing him when he fire, one of who was seen arm with a gun himself. Base on the circumstance of each shoot, I think he might have at least partial defence.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    There should not be anything “divisive” about the statement “it’s not OK for a 17-year-old to be driven by his mother to a Black Lives Matter protest while carrying a gun, with the intention of shooting people at the protest, and then murder two people at the protest.”

    It’s only “divisive” because there are too many people in the US who “do not support Black Lives Matter” (or “Antifa”) which logically extrapolates to the fact that they believe Black lives don’t matter and they support fascism.

    Of course people in the crowd were chasing him. He was driven across state lines with the intent of murdering them (I mean, what else is he going to argue that he was planning to do with that gun, melt it down and make it into a statue?).

    “I came across state lines with a gun to fight against the BLM protestors but only shot them in self defense” is the worst version of the too-juvenile-even-for-a-17-year-old “they started it!” non excuse that I have ever heard.
     
  17. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    There does not appear to be any evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse intended to murder anybody. By this logic, Gaige Grosskreutz, the man who arm get shot, also brought a loaded and unlawfully carried firearm to a protest with the intent to murder people. Both will argue they firearm were for their own protection. Legal expert have argued that Rittenhouse motive for being in Kenosha will be largely irrelevants, and what will be relevant will be the immediate event leading up to each shooting. His presence there does not preclude him from acting in lawful self-defense at each of the three incident, which is what the trial will try to determine.
     
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  18. Juliet316

    Juliet316 SFTC Bonanza & 11X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Apr 27, 2005
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    His motive should absolutely be relevant, and arguments that it isn’t are why he will go free.

    Does not mean he should.
     
  20. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    What is likely to see him acquit if anything in a case where self-defense is the offered legal defense, is the jury agreeing that belief in his own imminent danger and action were reasonable under the circumstances. The video and witness evidence seems to suggest that they might be.
     
  21. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 25, 1999
    The Supreme Court is about to thrust it back into the spotlight with the New York City concealed-permit case. Scuttlebutt is the conservative supermajority will greatly weaken the ability of cities and states to pass reasonable gun laws. This will give 'weak' politicians even more cover to do nothing.

    Why did he drive across state lines with a gun? You claim it's impossible to prove intent, but I disagree. He didn't show up with a gas grill, he brought a firearm. What possible purpose did he have if not to shoot people? The town he was in had a police department, no? Who gave him the authority to self-deputize and start patrolling the streets, shooting at will? What made him think he had the right to do that?

    Your argument is akin to a rapist claiming "If she hadn't worn a short skirt...!" as a defense. Intent does not require telepathy or spoken words to be divined by a jury. I think what he had in mind was fairly clear by the evidence presented-to-date.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  22. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    As I say above. Gaige Grosskreutz, the man who got arm shot, also admit in court that the loaded gun he took to the protest, he did not have a lawful permit for. His conceal carry permit had expired and he admit that he carry it conceal in the back of his trousers. So what reason did he have to take the gun to the protest if not to shoot people? It seems that people who carry gun will always claim it is for their personal protection.

    And you misrepresent the evidence, which clearly show that he did not shoot at will. He shot Rosenbaum as he was pursue across the parking lot by crowd, as Rosenbaum follow him round the car and try to grab his rifle (accord to witness testify) And the video evidence show that he was chase again by crowd down the road and he fire when knocked to the ground, kick (the court are calling the unidentify man who kick him "Jump kick man") and beaten and approach by a man (Grosskreutz) with a gun. "Shoot at will" is simply not what video evidence shows at all.

    I have not made any such argument, nor an allegory of this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  23. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
    He meant your argument compares to that.
     
  24. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    How? I have not claim that it is impossible to prove intent which is where that analogy stem from.
     
  25. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 25, 1999
    You're splitting hairs. Your statement implies that intent cannot be divined without solid proof, when in fact the legal standard is far less.

    You don't need a body to prove a murder happened. Mr. Rittenhouse doesn't need to have made a public announcement that he intended to shoot BLM protestors for him to have the intent to kill. Burden of proof is on the prosecutors, so we'll see what the jury says.