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Senate Gun Control

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview-Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Honestly shocked he isn’t selling it. I know that’s dark, but you know there are people out there who would buy that and spend a lot of money on it
     
  2. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    And yet, here you are, doing just that.
    The issue is not the legal minutiae of whether he was technically guilty of a crime (or why a sympathetic judge decided that a jury shouldn't be bothered with charges that they most likely would've found him guilty of). It's about how this came about in the first place, and the consequences about how the case was handled.
    It's about the insulated culture he came from, an echo chamber that filled his head with visions of BLM and ANTIFA (all caps) thugs killing people and taking over towns, when in fact you had unmarked vans full of undeclared law enforcement people with high-powered guns grabbing people off the streets and detaining them without charging them with a crime.
    It's about having a support group of friends and family that could help him get a gun, give him a ride over a state line into a volatile situation, and at no point tell him "No".
    It's about showing up looking for a fight and getting your wish.
    It's about police not particularly interested in stopping a white kid with a gun during a curfew, and in fact shouting out words of encouragement and giving them water, as if, you know, his life mattered more than others to the police - the very thing that the protests were about in the first place.
    It's about people shrugging and going "Boys will be boys" or "He's just a kid" while much younger African-American is referred to - and treated as - a 'man', or an 'adult', and would've been either gunned down by police or sent to prison for life under the same circumstances.
    And - most importantly - it's about the thousands of other Rittenhouses that are just like him that saw him gun down a couple of leftist communist BLM types and walk away scot free. Now, they won't have Tucker Carlson working hard to raise millions for them, so they might not be so lucky (maybe in Texas, or Florida), but the people they murder will be just as dead.

    The 'bothsiderisms' are tiresome. The pressing problems with this country today aren't with 'the Left'. There's no comparison between the summer protests and an attempt to overthrow the US government. There's no comparison with the fear that leftist strawmen are going to murder people with the very real massive spike of murderous white nationalists, racists and homophobes that have appeared since Trump was originally elected. Rittenhouse is just a symptom of all that.
    And he's a sociopathic little piece of **** that was obviously pulling a PR stunt because the whole Arbery case knocked him out of the news.
     
  3. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2018
    @blackmyron

    Um...I actually was just responding to Luke's post. I did not bring it up on my own accord, so please direct that energy elsewhere. To respond to some of your comments:
    -I am not engaged in bothsiderism. In relation to Rittenhouse, I think the verdict was the uncomfortable correct one and that the Left is trying to make him out to be a boogeyman when in truth he isn't. Nor is he a hero like the right is trying to make him out to be. The only possible bothsiderism you can accuse me of is believing that both sides are making up bull**** narratives to rile up their bases.
    -I am not saying that what he did falls under the label of "boys will be boys", I am saying that his dumb teenage mind thought it made sense to go down there and be seen as some kind of protector or keeper of the peace. I've seen this kind of dumb thought process before, so even when he explained it, I can understand how, without proper parent intervention, this got to the point it got to.
     
  4. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 29, 2005
    Edit: Hey, something about the latest gun massacre. Or has another already happened? I'm not sure.
    In any case, I can already see the narrative shaping up: news articles mention another kid that said "he wore all black", and another article mentioned he might have been "bullied" (with no actual evidence, a stab in the dark)
    ... but mom certainly is a piece of work. She wrote a personal message to Donald Trump upon his election:
    “Mr. Trump, I actually love that you are a bad public speaker because that showed sincerity, and humility,” she wrote. “You changed your mind, and you said ‘so what.’ You made the famous ‘grab them in the pussy’ comment, did it offend me? No. I say things all the time that people take the wrong way, do I mean them, not always. Do I agree that you should of [sic] shown your tax returns? No. I don’t care what you do or maybe don’t pay in taxes, I think those are personal and if the Gov’t can lock someone up over $10,000 of unpaid taxes and you slipped on by, then that shows the corruption.”
    Crumbley went on to tell Trump that she hoped he would “really uncover the politicians for what I believe they really are,” and that he might “shut down Big Pharma, make health care affordable for me and my MIDDLE CLASS family again.” She was in favor of Trump’s long-promised border wall, and noted that she was “not racist” because her grandfather “came straight off the boat in Italy.”
    “As a female and a Realtor, thank you for allowing my right to bear arms,” the letter continued. “Allowing me to be protected if I show a home to someone with bad intentions. Thank you for respecting that Amendment.”
    She complained about parents at other schools where the “kids come from illegal immigrant parents” and “don’t care about learning.”
    It was signed, “A hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting ****ed in the ass and would rather be grabbed by the pussy.”

    Also, the narrative in the media is that he 'got ahold of a gun that his dad bought', like he had rifled through his dad's locked gun cabinet or something - when in fact the kid's social media posts make it clear that his father bought the gun for his 15 year old son.

    These aren't PMs. If you're posting here, you're posting for everyone to see and reply to, Mike notwithstanding, that's the nature of discussion forums.
    You bring up what 'the Left' is doing wrong quite often, especially in response to something that the Right is doing.
    And let me make something clear - I'm not part of 'the Left'. And while I am a black-hearted cynic, it's been clear since I've been aware of the Big Wide World that the problems in the US are so horribly overbalanced by the Right that the entire scales has tipped over. I'm a lot less concerned that a college student's self-esteem was damaged than I am about actual fascism taking over the country I live in.
    That's exactly a 'bothsiderism'. A textbook definition.
    Again, you seem more focused on the legal material. He was obviously eager and looking for a fight, and brought a weapon used for killing as a 'defense' [sic]. As others have amply shown, he's not the least bit remorseful about ending people's lives. Why should he? He killed a couple evil leftists, and now he's a millionaire. He won the MAGA Lottery!
    That's exactly a 'boys will be boys'. A textbook definition. As I've pointed out before, referring to his young age feeds into the narrative of 'he's just a kid' - whereas any African-American male who commits a crime is automatically a 'man' to the police, courts, and conservative media, even at age 12.

    Let's focus on just one of the points I was making, and narrow it down: do you think, at the protests about the police treating people differently by race in Kenosha, that he was treated differently by the police in Kenosha because of his race? Or his obvious political affiliation or sympathies? Or both? Do you think that the judge was fair and unbiased when he dismissed the charge of violating curfew despite that the case was literally about him violating the curfew?
    And, to go over to the case that conservatives keep tying it to (presumably to keep Rittenhouse in the news), do you feel that both the Rittenhouse and Arbery cases show that 'whites like justice' as the Fox News narrative goes? And, if so, how did the fact that the Arbery case barely even made it to trial, mainly because someone who thought he helping Arbery's murderers leaked the video of the killing and then a public outcry ensued, despite one DA advising the police that there was no reason to waste time pursing the case, factor into that 'justice'?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  5. Cynda

    Cynda Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2014
    I completely disagree with these students' demands that Rittenhouse not be permitted to enroll next semester at ASU. Education is a human right, whether or not that person is in prison or acquitted.
     
  6. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 12, 2017
    I do agree with you in principle, but I also think that the students have a right to feel safe and comfortable in their place of learning. Many may be genuinely uncomfortable in the presence of someone like Rittenhouse. There’s also the problem of the media circus that will likely descend upon the school and disrupt student life for everyone.

    When I was studying at university, I remember there being reports in the media and around the campus that a former member of a loyalist paramilitary had been offered a place to study for a degree (if I remember correctly, he’d been convicted of arms trafficking). I remember many students feeling very uneasy about this prospect. As an 18 year old student, I wouldn’t have felt comfortable entering into debate with this person and I imagine that many ASU students feel the same way about Rittenhouse.
     
  7. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 29, 2005
    Protest, Rittenhouse... I think we see where this is going.

    Can't wait to hear what he has to say at his next trial!
     
  8. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

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    Sep 19, 2002
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  9. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

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    Feb 15, 2000
    Rittenhouse is an All-American Hero[face_flag] and will probably receive a number of honorary degrees. His human rights are secure.
     
  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree that education is a human right. Which is why Rittenhouse can take online classes or go to Liberty University.

    Students at ASU have the right to not have to share space with him for their own safety, given how much Rittenhouse and his ilk love killing “leftists”. I will not send my sons to a place that enrolls people like Rittenhouse and I will let the university in question know exactly why, if it ever comes up.
     
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  11. Cynda

    Cynda Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2014
    Many people, not just Rittenhouse, have committed or been charged with murder and either been acquitted or completed a jail sentence. It sends a bad precedent to deny anyone who has been acquitted or served their time their fundamental human rights.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  12. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

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    Feb 15, 2000
    Yes but no rights, including fundamental human rights, are absolute. For example it is a fundamental human right not to be shot dead in the street.. but there you go :p
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Nobody is denying him his human rights though. He does not have a right to an education at that specific university. He can attend one where the majority of people are his kind.

    The white supremacist ideology needs to be taken into account. It’s not just about his being acquitted of murder but his being acquitted of these specific murders.

    If he were acquitted of, say, a domestic act of violence, the danger would be in dating him, not in existing on campus with him as someone who supports Black Lives Matter.
     
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  14. mnjedi

    mnjedi Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 4, 2012
    I’m imagining getting assigned a group paper and finding out I drew Kyle Rittenhouse. *shudders*
     
  15. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 12, 2017
    Rittenhouse has made his bed and he can lie in it. If he’d been lying in his bed on 25th August 2020, none of us would know his name, two people would still be alive and Kyle could attend any college that was willing to have him.

    As @anakinfansince1983 says, he can study online or attend an institution that is aligned to his beliefs. I don’t doubt that there will be colleges where staff and students would accept Rittenhouse. It would, in my opinion, be wrong to force a nervous or unwilling student body to accept the presence of someone like Rittenhouse.
     
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  16. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 23, 2018
    Just seeing this, mate.

    1. Was he treated differently at the protest because of his race or political affiliation?

    Honestly, I’m not sure. I have an inclination to say that a black kid with an AR-15 would be treated differently, but I’m honestly not sure nor do I have enough evidence of how Rittenhouse was treated at the protest to make a strong statement either way.

    2. Was the judge unbiased?

    No, the judge was clearly biased.

    3. “Whites like Justice” seems like a dumbass argument to make. What I’ll say is, to me, the Rittenhouse verdict of not guilty is right and the McMichaels verdict of guilty is right. I’d hope that any jury, regardless of race, could’ve looked at the facts of either case and came to the same verdicts.

    4. Given the history of the state where the McMichaels case happened and the “good ole boy” club mentality of the law enforcement agencies involved, I’m not surprised that the DA tried to sweep it under the rug. I think that I Am happy that the social media outrage brought greater scrutiny to that gross miscarriage of justice and forced the those murderers to have their day in court, and in even more happy that a jury found them guilty and they will be spending the rest of their lives in prison.
     
  17. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 23, 2018
    This is extremely Freaking enraging. As a criminal Justice reform advocate, one of the things I believe in the most is the right for people accused, acquitted, or convicted of a crime to have their day in court, face their punishment(if convicted), but then being able to return to society to try again and that we as a society shouldn’t limit their participation.

    It’s why I’ve campaigned and advocated for felons to be able vote upon release from prison.

    It’s why I believe that the felons shouldn’t be forced to check a box on a job application in a society that will immediately eliminate them from the candidate pool because of past mistakes they’ve made.

    It’s why I believe that if someone Is acquitted of a freaking crime then they shouldn’t be able to have their freaking education jeopardized because a bunch of college students think it’s their right to decide who can and cannot attend their school.

    The ******* nerve of these people. Then these are the same idiots that want to talk about bad the criminal Justice system is for minorities. Guess what? You know whats worse than being prejudged as a black guy? Being prejudged as A black guy with a criminal record or who has had a run in with the law. Because then other people can say whatever they want about you and exclude you from spaces because they fear for their “safety”.

    Sound familiar?

    The damned hypocrisy.

    Edit: He was accepted to that University. He should be allowed to go. If those kids don’t want him there, tough. If they want to protest, let them do it. But they have no more of a claim to be there than he does.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The people you have advocated for are not white supremacists.

    The idea that we “have to” view white supremacists who commit crimes and get away with it, as somehow equivalent to minorities who are unjustly targeted by law enforcement, irritates me because it gives white supremacists far more leeway than they deserve. It’s not hypocrisy to view and treat white supremacists differently.

    I’m good with my kids attending school with someone who was targeted by law enforcement for, say, growing or using weed.
     
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  19. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 23, 2018
    No… I know exactly who I have advocated for. I don’t care. I don’t care if someone is a racist. I don’t care if someone is a drug dealer. I don’t care if someone is a tax evader. I don’t even care if they have killed someone. If they have been released back into society, under the belief that they have paid their debt to society, they deserve to be treated as equal as anyone else.

    The only exception to this should be child molesters, as the societal pros of having a registry, unfortunately for them, outweigh the the individual cons of having that crime follow you for the rest of your life.

    Look, I don’t think this is the right thread for this, and I apologize but I’m very passionate about criminal Justice reform.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I am as well but I have not one iota of sympathy for white supremacists, who are also often misogynists, and who would often be prepared to kill me (or my kids, which is where the college discussion comes in) for being who we are.
     
  21. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

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    Feb 15, 2000
    There’s a difference between what you are advocating, I.e stigmatising former felons etc (which I happen to agree with 100%) and the right of an educational institution to be able to determine whether a student may or may not enrol based upon that student’s public views on race (for example). If reasonable grounds exist for the concern that the student is going to be outspoken and effectively use the campus as a platform for hate speech and student protests then the school ought to be able to refuse enrolment. It should not be unlawful discrimination to refuse enrolment to a proud vocal Nazi for example. The institution has a duty of care to maintain a safe and secure campus free of hate and intimidation for all of its students.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  22. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 23, 2018
    I don’t disagree with that at all. A student who uses university grounds to promulgate hate speech shouldn’t be allowed to attend.

    One thing though: show me where Kyle Rittenhouse said that he plans on espousing hate speech or intimidating anyone. Seriously. You show me that, I’m on your side and I agree.

    I’ll make it even easier, show me where Kyle Rittenhouse has vocally spoken about his avid support of white supremacist beliefs. A prior speech perhaps? Maybe he received an invite to a klan rally that we can use.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Hanging out with the Proud Boys and flashing the white power sign at a bar was enough for me. As was going to a BLM protest with an assault rifle under the guise of “protecting property.”
     
  24. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

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    Feb 15, 2000
    I’m not even really talking about Rittenhouse at this point, just talking in terms of pure principle which we seem to agree on. Having said that I would be concerned about his high profile and the fact that the fringe right lunatic brigade have rallied around him and he is their poster boy. I think a credible argument could be mounted that even if there is little evidence that Rittenhouse himself fits that unacceptable profile, the movement which is coalescing behind him represents a threat to the other students at the school.
     
  25. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview-Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    That’s why the shooters name should never be published. Just have them be forever known as a shooter and leave it at that. Some sick people are inspired to kill just for the fame. I say never reveal his name