Lit Han and Leia in the EU - A Discussion Thread (Life Debt spoilers must be tagged)

As someone with a prodigal son, ( though he's never came close to murder or anything of that serious of a nature), I can understand where she is coming from.

Even when your child has done horrible things, they are still your baby. You disapprove and are quite upset, but you still live them and see the good that others miss. I'm sure that's true of fathers also.

With those two as parents I'm sure he learned to be verbally adept. But I think they would be totally different with their child than they were with each other. All though once he hit the dreaded teens, I can see the Organa /Solo house being an interesting place. I'm willing to be he learned his parents gift for verbal sparing, though we don't really see it with Kylo, who acts like was brainwashed. But if we got to see more Ben, it would probably be different.

I guarantee he was loved, and learned the I Know joke early

#-#- JJ for not giving us that.

It was for those type of reasons that I refuse to watch the ST reboot. I like my original characters and don't want to see them assassinated.

Posted by HAL 9000 via Tapatalk

 

Unfortunately, having accountability for ones own actions isn't a message that's getting across in the ST. I can hardly stand the ST threads because several people are twisting everything around to make it look like Han and Leia as parents, are the culprits, and Ben is the victim. According to them, Han is even responsible for his own death and Ben is blameless. Some have even speculated that Han had nothing to live for and therefore committed suicide by son. Some say that Ben didn't really want to kill his father and tried his best to avoid it but Han pushed the issue and left poor Ben with no choice. Apparently, according to many, Han and Leia abused and neglected their child so much that he is damaged and therefore not responsible for his misdeeds. Not only is this painful to see beloved characters trashed this way, but it's painful to see this as a reflection on today's society views.

Here's an comparison between Leia and Ben's views on the state of the galaxy in the novelization of the TFA.

In Chapter 1, Leia is desperate to find her missing brother. She thinks that he’s the only one who can help her. She knows he isn’t dead because she would have sensed it if he had died. She needs Luke’s help because the still developing New Republic is under threat by the First Order. The New Republic is already on the verge of collapse because many people are too impatient with the development process. Also, most people want to follow orders instead of think for themselves, even though Leia and the other leaders of the Rebellion had fought for their right to speak, to object, and to dispute. When Leia catches her own reflection she sees how tired she looks. She thinks about the responsibilities that came with being planetary royalty, about Alderaan, and about her own legacy as Darth Vader’s daughter. She feels the heavy weight of responsibility for preventing another Alderaan from happening again.

In Chapter 7 Kylo Ren reveals his motives for joining the First Order.

Looking out a space, Kylo Ren says, “Look at it, Lieutenant. So much beauty among so much turmoil. In a way, we are but an infinitely smaller reflection of the same conflict. It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization.

 

Ginger

I agree. As a mom of a 22 year old, I see that so much among today's young people. Nothing is ever their fault, it's always their parents, or their teachers, or the law enforcement, or the judge, or their friends or anybody but themselves. What ever happened to personal responsibility. Nobody is responsible for your choices but you.

I've made some mistakes in my life, but they were my choices, not my parents or my late ex, or my son. Right or wrong I alone am responsible for the choices I made. So is everyone else on the planet who isn't a little kid.

I won't even go in the Kylo threads, because I would probably say something to get myself in trouble.

Schmi, Obi-Wan and Padme are not responsible for Anakin's choices.

Han, Leia and Luke are not responsible for Ben becoming Kylo. That was entirely on Ben, with our without Snoke's interference. He is neither a small child or mindless, he made his own choices.

Though I see a lot of parallels between Ben and Anakin.

Mothers here can be very dragon like at times. But I see them as very loving, but yet strong and not afraid to establish some rules. I'm thinking there was a lot of fun going on. Neither of them would back down from a fight, especially when it comes to making sure their child wasn't an entitled brat. That doesn't mean they were tiger parents, but they would never have been pushovers. I doubt Ben could come up with any ideas Han didn't already think of or try in his youth. , but he would have also understood where Ben was coming from. And he would have wanted him to not make the same mistakes.

Leia already speaks fluent Han, so she would have understood her son, as well as that mother son bond, which is unlike any other bond.

Han and Leia both took responsibility for their choices, neither decided it was the other's fault. They joked about it, but there was no " if you had done a instead of B, this wouldn't have happened.".

They would have held Ben to the same standard.

I will never believe they were bad parents, and I will go ape on somebody if they ever get painted that way. (metaphorically I mean, I won't violate any rules literally)

Those who would blame his parents just need to grow up, and learn personal responsibility.

 

(my emphasis) To be fair what I've found is that tends to crop up all over the place, with age being no indicator. It seems ownership varies greatly, being it of work or actions. My own experience is that many people would rather be dead or destroy a relationship completely than admit they got anything wrong, regardless of the details or nature of it. I can't say this makes any sense to me but seems to be the way of things.

Why not take responsibility? Likely because too many people like to be judgmental and lack a sense of proportion, while being heedless of the consequences of all that. It's also been my experience that people rarely stick to the rules they damn others for not following, as they've got 'a reason'. So, due to that, better to find reason to say it wasn't you.

Back to SW though - responsibility isn't handled well in the earlier films so it's not surprising that'd continue into the ST. Vader's redemption in the OT was problematic given all the crap he did before it - nor did he exactly hurry to save Luke when he was getting deep-fried. The PT then added to that with hefty dose of prophecy bollox, so allowing people to conclude that killing Palp was all that was needed, so all the bad acts he did before then, 20 years+ of don't matter. With both of those influencing the ST, maybe it's not surprising it's turned out the way it has so far.

 

I've definitely seen it in all age groups, I just seem to notice it more among the younger generation. (When did I get old enough to complain about kids these days?).

It did take Vader a bit to stop Palp from roasting Luke, but he did eventually make the right decision. He also admits that Luke was right, and he never said that his choices were any one else's fault
Killing the Emperor didn't end the war, but it was a major victory. The other little warlords would be easier to handle, though there would have been years of cleanup.

In the end Vader paid with his life. It isn't as though all he did could have ever been forgiven, same with Kylo.

If they make him a good guy with no consequences for all he did, I will will extremely disappointed, and may end up seeing the ST, the way some people see the PT.

SW fans are nothing if not vocal about what they do and don't like.

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I have to stay out of lurking at the Kylo and Reylo shipper threads. It's amazing the mental gymnastics people will go through to convince themselves that Kylo isn't really that bad a guy, he's just a poor misunderstood boy who wasn't loved enough by his parents. I keep seeing this theory that he has never actually killed anyone except for Han and someone else committed the Jedi Massacre so he's not really all that evil. Except that the Visual Dictionary and Star Wars site both say he committed the massacre. There is some ridiculous theory that Kylo and Rey are drawn to each other because they both come from emotional isolation - Ben was never loved by his family and Rey was raised in isolation.

WTF, Ben = born in peace and privilege, loving mother, father, Uncle, and Uncle Chewie. Rey = dropped off on a desert planet at 5 and completely isolated, never had any family or friends, forced to fend for herself her entire life. How are the two remotely the same?!

I hate to say it, but if I look at the ages of the Reylo shippers and the Kylo fans who say he's not a villain they all seem to be 15-24. People seem to have their head canon which involves throwing Han and Leia under the bus, that Han was off smuggling all the time and never around when Ben was a child and Leia was too busy in her political career to be a mom (insert groan on how a woman can apparently never have both a family AND a career, but men can for some reason).

What's sad is that you have two love interests who are close to Rey who are actual heroes who are kind, compassionate people (Poe and Finn), yet the most popular ship is to ship her with a mass murdering psychopath. I really fear the damage Twilight and 50 Shades is doing to the young girls of this generation.

As for how I picture Ben's childhood, I could see Leia being more strict and Han being like "Leia, boys will be boys. Just let him have some fun!" He'd use the argument "Hey, I turned out okay!!" I am curious about how Ben was sent off to Luke and what age. Leia says she sent him, not "we", so was Han against it? In the cut scene from the original MSW outline both Han and Leia dropped Ben off together. I assume a book will cover it at some point, I hope they don't show Han and Leia having marital problems starting then.

I think they are going down a redemption arc with Kylo, but I hope it's not just a rehash of Vader where he turns Light at the end and then dies. Or maybe they'll do a Jacen Solo where he never gets redeemed and is killed by Rey. Or the third option, he turns to the Light then has to spend the rest of his life making up for what he's done. There's some precedent for that in other fiction.

EDIT: I was looking at Claudia Gray's old tweets and there was a cute one I thought you guys would like. Someone else tweeted that His Girl Friday is the only movie she can think of in Hollywood where a man is attracted to a woman because of her job. She tweeted back "One other - Han Solo and Princess Leia."

 

It's interesting to recall that the Solo kids in Legends never ever really grew up in the eyes of the audience, even when they hit their 30s, the sense was as if they were still teenagers.

Is that happening with Ben / Kylo this time around?

 

I think so. People seem to not get the idea that even if he did have a bad childhood, he's a fully grown adult at 30 and responsible for his own decisions. Even if your dad sucks, you're still not legally allowed to murder them. It's disturbing the number of people who think Han deserved to die because he was a poor father.

On a happier note, here's a cute quote from the old EU Christie Golden's Fate of the Jedi Omen on Han and Leia, still happily married after 40 years:

The faint light from the never-dark Coruscant skies fell upon her features, still beautiful to him—and others—after over forty years. Her eyes, that rich, liquid brown that always made him kinda quivery, glinted slightly in the multicolored glow as she peered up at him, and Han Solo fell in love all over again, as he did pretty much at least once a week. He’d been lucky to have found such an amazing woman. Life would never, ever be dull with her.



I miss the old EU.

 

And kids need that. They need to relax and have fun, but still have rules and be held accountable. I can see Han letting him have freedom, but still setting limits, just not as many as Leia because she's a mother, and Han knows what it's like to be a little boy.

The same people who think their messes are a result of someone else's doings not theirs. A woman can have a career and be a good mother, a man can be both a "scoundrel" and be a good dad without having to be a Mike Brady / Ward Cleaver type.

The Reylos, as a whole are scary to me. I avoid that place like a contagious disease. I blame Twilight and 50 Shades of totally messed up for giving some people the idea that stalking is sexy and that bad boys can be fixed by the right girl. Trust someone who's been there, that never works. If a guy is stalking or threatening you, that isn't love, that's a reason to get a lawyer and call law enforcement. It will only end badly.

People do change, but they change because they make the choice to be a better person, not because somebody fixed them. Han was never evil or bad, just rough around the edges. He made the choice to let his better side win, because he was in love and he liked who he was becoming and was really that person any way. He never stalked her or treated her with anything less than respect (and irritation ). When she told him to back off, he backed off. When he came on to her, he respected her feelings. He would never hurt her, and risked his life for her several times. The whole "I know" thing was totally for her benefit.

I hate Twilight and 50 shades for setting women back decades. Women who think that is love are going to get very hurt. Men who think women like that stuff are going to wind up in jail, rightfully so.

 

That's funny, I kind of think the other way about Han, that he would know what kind of trouble boys can get into and would want to keep Ben from making the same mistakes he did. I don't necessarily think he would be a strict disciplinarian, but would have his rules that he'd expect Ben to follow. That's not to say he wouldn't let Ben have some fun as long as he didn't cross the line. I'm anxious to see how this all plays out in the new EU.

Thinking about Han as a father, I have to wonder if the new EU will follow suit with the old and depict him as an orphan? I think it would be a scary prospect for him if he'd never had a good role model to suddenly find himself in that role. I'm sure that he, and Leia as well, made some mistakes, what parent doesn't, but I'm also sure he would be loving and supportive despite being a little ill-prepared to take on that challenge.

 

I would agree. He wouldn't want to be too serious, but at the same time keep the kid from ending up making the same mistakes.

I definitely see Ben not being able to get anything past either of them.

I just picture Leia waking him up at 2am telling him its his turn to change Ben. Bwaaaahaaaa.

Or sending him out at 3 am for nerf burgers because she has a pregnancy craving.

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As I was walking through the book section at Walmart today I came across a Junior novelization of TFA, so I picked it up and started skimming it to see how it compares with the adult version. The Junior version is much more condensed but the basis of the story seems the same. I did find some differences between the two versions, not so much in the dialogue, but in the descriptive parts or whatever they're called. The following excerpt is Han's and Leia's first meeting after she exits the transport.

Once the droids were gone, husband and wife shared a moment together, alone.

"You changed your hair," Han said.

She raised an eye at his outfit. "Same jacket."

"No. New jacket."

Their peace was short-loved. Striding toward them, Chewbacca burst out with an elated roar and enveloped Leia in his arms. His grunts and wroofs made her smile. Satisfied, the Wookiee boarded the transport.

The two followed the Wookiee's example and embraced. Han could hardly remember the last time he'd held Leia so near. He missed her. And he regretted having to ruin the moment with news of their son.

"I saw him," Han said. "He was here."

Leia closed her eyes but did not seem surprised, as if she had already known.

I like this version of this scene better then what we get in the adult version for one reason, well, maybe two. 'He missed her'. We don't have to read between the lines or presume that's the case because it's spelled out for the reader in black and white. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes I really want to know what the characters are thinking. We don't have the luxury of being able to read their thoughts on the movie screen, so unless they actually say the words we have no way of knowing what they are thinking or feeling. Both versions mentioned their embrace. It would have been nice if it had been included in the movie.

The other reason I like this version is the implication of Leia's Force ability. Personally, I have never been bothered by the fact that she did not follow the path of a Jedi. I've never really thought that was her calling, so to speak. But I do like that she has learned to use the Force in ways that could be beneficial to her in whatever career path she chooses. First as a politician and now as a general. Again, maybe this is just my own personal head canon, but I've always thought she was a pretty good judge of character. Okay, so maybe she misjudged Han, at first, but ultimately she came to know him for the good man he was and desperately tried to hide. Anyway, I've always figured that was one way the Force manifested itself in her. And I'd think that ability would come in real handy when dealing with people and being able to sense their true intentions. But, more importantly, as this line implies, she's learned to use it to sense the life forces of those she loves.

So, that's my two cents worth. I did end up purchasing this Junior version as I couldn't seem to help myself. What can I say except I'm obsessed. In my defense, however, I plan to pass this version along to my great nephews.

 

I'm on the fence. I don't know if Leia could or ever should be able to move past Kylo murdering Han. However, if he IS going to be redeemed, I feel it needs to be Leia who has the biggest role in bringing him back to the light. Afterall, she's the one who still senses it in TFA. Although, we don't really know if she had a change of heart by the end of TFA.

My biggest concern about the new EU is that we aren't going to get quite enough backstory as we would like that involves the Big Three. I want to be able to read every single tiny detail in the 30 years after ROTJ surrounding Han, Luke and Leia. Someone else in this thread (I think it was IamZam) brought up the "it's Disney" argument. Right, which is why I feel like this new EU is going to cater to an entirely different generation of SW fans, who likely are not as emotionally invested in the OT as many of us here are. I really hope we aren't going to be ripped off.

I really hope they do decide to show us Han and Leia's wedding either in a novel or a comic. Anything would be better than the debacle that is COPL at this point.

 

I have to say this is my biggest concern as well, which will be very upsetting considering the complicated backstories they created for the OT3. They, being Lucasfilm story group I assume, took the old EU and labeled it Legend so now we have no history of what our favorites have been up to since the Battle of Endor. The only information we do have is the bits and pieces we have gleaned from TFA Visual Dictionary or whatever novels that have been released that cover that time period. The only one I'm aware of thus far is Aftermath, and that, from what I could see, didn't have Luke or Leia at all and only a short chapter with Han and Chewie. Admittedly, I never got it completely read. I just couldn't get into it without the inclusion of the characters I love. I'm afraid I will feel the same way with any future novels if there main focus is all new characters and very little of the ones we know and love.

 

Awesome:

 

Thanks for sharing this Jedi Ben.

 

@Jedi Ben.
Rock On.. I love those guys!

 

In terms of Han and Leia in the new Canon, I like that they both didn't care about Kylo Ren's crimes, they just wanted their son to come home to them. Whereas Han and Leia in Legends practically disowned Jacen Solo the moment he began with the GAG. I always felt that they never tried to truly reach their son and just wrote him off as lost. Glad to see JJ didn't make that mistake and portrayed Han and Leia as loving their son even though he had turned to the Dark Side. Way to improve on Legends JJ!

 

I'm glad they still love their son, parents love should their kids unconditionally, but that doesn't absolve him from all the horrible things he's done. I'm interested to see how Leia is going to react to her son, killing his father. Talk about torn emotions, and next level drama. I just hope they don't mess that up, like they did with their relationship.

I'm counting on Bloodlines to give me good H/L scenes that JJ didn't. At least not enough for this fangirl.

I'm looking forward to more EU of their story. Somebody must take pity on our corner of fandom.

 

I'm always keeping an eye on the erock331 channel - there's a great version of Imperial March. Duel of the Fates is good too, but is now in third place on the SW ones!

 

I'm glad that TFA made it clear that Han and Leia love their son very much. It was also clear as to how much they were heartbroken over what Ben had become. I can't even imagine how difficult it has to be for them.

 

Poor Leia. Any mortal would have probably jumped off a bridge or gone catatonic. Why does she get all the bad stuff happening to her.

Did the Tuskens curse Anakin's offspring or something?

Yeah she got a happy marriage for over 20 years and I'm assuming Ben wasn't always messed up, but if anyone deserves a happy ever after it's her.

It's like a contest or somethimg what bad thing can we do to her in this movie. *humpf*

Posted by HAL 9000 via Tapatalk

 

Vialco

I agree even though I stop reading the Legends EU sometime before or around Jacen fell so I don't know how H/L dealt with it. In TFA, I think it's obvious that Han and Leia were loving parents to Ben. If they weren't then his fall to the dark side wouldn't have had as big of an impact on their lives that it did. Leia wouldn't have asked Han to bring their son home, and Han wouldn't have brushed Ben's cheek with his hand as he was dying. It's understandable why they would reach out to him, and risk all to save him. I'm glad that it's demonstrated in the movie and in the novelizations that their son, Ben is a priority. He was what they talked about when they were reunited after years of being apart, well, at least they talked about him right after Leia's new hairdo and Han's jacket.

I don't have a problem with Han and Leia's feelings for their son, but I do have a problem with the Kylo Ren apologists who want to blame everyone else for his behavior. I really don't think this is what J.J. Abrams and Disney had in mind. J.J. even spoke sympathetically about how parents live with this fear that something very wrong can happen to their child because that child has made bad choices in life. He was relating Han and Leia's plight with real-life situations, but in their case this is "an insane extrapolated version."

Jedi Ben
Thanks for the video. I really enjoyed that even if the Han and Leia theme seems to make me teary lately for some reason.

 

I think they did, a tiny bit, I just don't know if it's enough yet. I Tweeted Jen Heddle a few times and she always responded in kind when it came to complaints regarding the lack of closure etc for Han and Leia in TFA. She reassured us about happier times. She's also a Han and Leia fan as well so if we continue to gently Tweet about our need for good Han and Leia bits to come out in the new EU, we might just get what we want.