Lit Han and Leia in the EU - A Discussion Thread (Life Debt spoilers must be tagged)

Yeah, there's a definite danger of 'well,we know where he ends up so let's do nothing but foreshadow it with zero subtlety'.

 

They better not dare. They've already *'d off as large portion of their fan base. I don't want to have to start a rebellion LOL!

If they do I shall be most displeased.

To quote everybody:

I have a bad feeling about this

 

They better not. To portray Han as this manchild who never really changes from the selfish smuggler we meet in ANH is such a character travesty. The whole point of his character arc was to go from a loner who looks out for #1 to someone who learns to love and finally commits himself to the cause of the woman he loves. That was Lucas' intention, no matter what JJ thinks. To ret-con his development as "It seems like he changed and learned to care about others and become responsible and devoted to the cause, but just kidding! He never really changed, jokes on you!" I always felt Zahn nailed Han's character development of where we'd see him 5 years after ROTJ, still with his roguish personality and making wisecracks, but still responsible and devoted to his family.

However, I have some hope. I follow Claudia Gray on twitter and she has a ton of tweets about how much she loves Han and Leia as a couple, and she tweeted that Han is the kind of guy that seems like a bad boy, but inside he's just a cream puff. Her book will "set the tone" for how Han and Leia are treated in the EU afterwards, and if there is a lot of positive reception to how they're handled as a couple, the rest of the EU should follow suit. (Isn't that how Luke and Mara got treated really well as a couple in the old EU?) The only thing that worries me is that Han isn't apparently in Bloodline much. I hope they don't follow the Bantam trend of splitting them up for most of the book.

A nice moment from the junior novelization from Han's POV as he's on Starkiller Base:

But by the time any reinforcements could arrive, he and Chewie would have planted the explosives and started on their way back to the Falcon with the kids. Then back to D'Qar. Back to Leia.

So it seems clear Han was expecting to go back to the base and reunite with Leia, had he survived. I wish the movie had made this more clear.

There's also a nice moment when he sees Leia and he thinks of her as Leia, his wife. To me, that shows that they still are very much married, just leading separate lives to deal with their grief, but still consider each other their spouse. It's not a "we're separated, but still technically married because we haven't gotten around to filing for divorce" marriage.

 

unicorn

This definitely sounds encouraging. Her assessment of Han is pretty much in keeping with my impressions of the character. Someone who's tough on the outside, but has a good heart that he tries to conceal from all but his closest friends. And up until he met Luke and Leia that probably only included Chewie. I find it interesting, however, that Claudia Gray's perception of Han's character is so vastly different than JJ's. Maybe it's a gender thing with most guys believing Han was happier as a rogue with no family ties, and most woman believing he was a diamond in the rough that just needed people in his life he could trust to bring out the good in him.

 

I think it's partially a gender thing but also an age thing
Those who've been around awhile see the upside to having a family and settling down.

Younger people still crave adventure and freedom

Posted by HAL 9000 via Tapatalk

 

Carrie Fisher also said "I would probably describe Han Solo as the cynical mercenary, space pirate - with the cream filling, you know? He's a nice guy."

There have been some great male authors who balanced Han as a rogue and scoundrel while still being a family man like Denning, Zahn, and Allston. But there are definitely a lot of male fans who see Han Solo as the "cool guy", like Indiana Jones and James Bond - they only see him as this cool rogue with a blaster by his side and fast ship who looks out for #1, not who he evolves into over the course of the trilogy. That's where this head canon comes from that Han is a womanizer and love em and leave em type like Indy, even though there is zero support for that in the actual films. To them a guy can't be settled down and in love and still be cool. But you know, that kind of stuff like flying around, being in debt and being chased by gangs sounds cool when you're in your 20s, but when you're in your 60s, that just looks sad and pathetic. There's a reason they recast James Bond when he gets to be too old - it would look pathetic to have this guy in his 60s still running around, womanizing and refusing to settle down.

Whenever I heard interviews with JJ Abrams on how he sees Han, he always only mentions his moments in ANH and describes his ANH personality, it's like he never saw ROTJ. JJ also said Star Wars was a "boys movie" until TFA, so he definitely didn't consider the Han/Leia fanbase when he was doing TFA. Let's just hope the new EU does.

For those of you who have twitter, please tweet Pablo Hidalgo and Jen Heddle of what we want to see of Han and Leia in the EU. Pablo hasn't been too receptive to the Han/Leia fans, but Jen Heddle has been very nice. She's a huge Han/Leia fan herself.

 

I think I posted this in one of the Carrie Fisher's thread, but it fits here since we're talking about Claudia Gray and her upcoming book, Bloodline.

Star Wars Insider #163 has an interview with Ms. Gray and when she was asked, "Why do you think romantic stories captivate audiences?" She had this to say,

At its best, romance is fundamentally a story about synthesis. Two forces--even if they're opposites--combine and become stronger together. That's true from Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy, who teach each other to be more cautious and more humble, respectively -- all the way to Han and Leia, where he helps her down from her pedestal to have fun and she helps him discover the less cynical, more noble side to his character. [To some extent, Thane and Ciena's love story is star-crossed because they can't reach that point of synthesis, even though they have made each other better in so many ways.] In my opinion, human beings are almost hard-wire to respond to that kind of story. We love fiction precisely because it can offer that kind of satisfying resolution reality is so stingy with.

Unfortunately, J.J. Abrams decided to throw in some so-called reality into our favorite love story. I know Ms. Gray did some rewriting after the movie was release so that her book will better fit in with what happened in TFA. I just hope we didn't get cheated out of reading her interpretation of the love story because of the direction the filmmakers went. I wonder if that's why we went from being promised Bloodline has some fun H/L stuff to Han's not in it that much?

 

They better not! I'll be furious I'm hopeful that's not the case. How much rewriting can you do in a couple of months? You can't change someone from being a major character to a minor character in that short amount of time. I'm guessing Han is off planet on his own mission, or Leia's narrative takes place while she's off-planet, and they meet up at the beginning and end. Anyway, there's nothing in TFA to indicate that they had problems in their marriage before the massacre occurred. Leia does make that comment "That's when I lost you both" but I took that to mean she just sees that as the beginning of the end.

I know some people have speculated that they're not together in Bloodlines, and that the "cute H/L scenes" are just them meeting up as separated spouses who still get along and consult each other occasionally. What do you guys think of that possibility?

 

No, I don't think it's possible. I believe that they are still together in Bloodline, I just hope they didn't change anything about the original dynamics between Han and Leia because of trying to put in some foreshadowing. It's probably going to be fine but I just don't trust them 100%.

Just for kicks

Claudia Gray said that she wrote some dialogue between Han and Leia before she saw the movie, but she thinks people will think that she put it in afterwards because it's so close to dialogue in the film. What do you think that could be?

Also, Carrie said that she ran into Harrison some place and as she went to hug him, he quoted something that Han said to Leia in TFA, but it took her a few seconds to realize that's what he did. What do you think the line was?

 

I can think of a few, but my brain is a dark and scary place so I won't go there.


Ginger
Whatever does happen in the new EU (man this franchise is getting complicated), my head canon says happy marriage, not perfect that makes for boring stories but happy and solid. Unless they have a good happy marriage in Bloodlines I will refuse to accept their canon and substitute my own.

Currently re-reading Into the Fire by Sue Zahn and remembering how much I love her stuff.
At least she thinks the way we and many other like minds do.

 

unicorn

That was blatantly obvious. I don't know, but I have to wonder if when TFA was in the planning stages representatives from Lucasfilm/Disney were lurking on these boards and didn't see an active fan base for H/L and decided it was safe to heap all the drama on them. I know, it's a crazy theory. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a little angst and drama, not even for my favorite characters, but TFA just took it a little too far and I was extremely disappointed in the storytellers decision to do this to them.

I seriously doubt this theory myself. If Han and Leia's reason for separating in the first place was because they were in too much pain to be together, then I can't see them continuing to have contact with each other. That's my feeling on it anyway.

Ginger

That's interesting. Maybe it's the conversation where Leia replies, "And don't say the Death Star". Or maybe a similar conversation to the one they have just before Han leaves for Starkiller Base. I'm assuming she left it in so we'll find out when Bloodline is released.

There really wasn't that much dialogue between them so you'd think that would be an easy one to figure out. I'm going to take a wild guess and say, "Some things never change".

 

Sologal, I know a lot of people think Han and Leia aren't together in Bloodline because it doesn't fit their head canon of the Jedi massacre occurring earlier, but I don't see Han and Leia as the kind of couple that are exes but remain friends. Some people have speculated that they're already separated but Leia consults with Han at some point using his connections, which is why he isn't in the book much. Usually that kind of relationship involves no longer having any feelings for the person, and it's obvious they're still in love with each other. I also think one reason why they were separated for so long was because each one was convinced the other person didn't want to see them and was waiting for the other one to make the first move. That's a total Han and Leia thing to happen, they're both stubborn and proud. When they do both get in the same room together, it's obvious how much both of them want to be with the other.

I don't think they cared much about pissing off the hard-core fans, because they already did that when they made the EU Legends. Mara Jade had a huge fan base and they had no problem obliterating her to non canon. I do think that JJ Abrams and Kasdan were EXTREMELY fearful of the backlash the prequels received and sought to avoid any similarities to them whatsoever. That's why we get the reboot with no Jedi in the galaxy, Empire/First Order the enemy, Rebellion/Resistance scrappy underdog...A much more logical sequel would have been with an established New Republic with Leia as a Senator and Luke with a Jedi Order. And JJ Abrams definitely thought more fan(boys) would want to see Han regress to being a single smuggler than female fans wanting to see him married to Leia.

Ginger, did Claudia Gray specify that the similar dialogue was between Han and Leia? I remember her saying that there was similar dialogue in her book and in TFA but I don't remember her saying that it was between Han and Leia.

Hmm, I'm going to agree with Sologal and say "Some things never change" or maybe "Women, they always find out".

On another note, I really hope that Leia hiding the truth about Snoke from Han is non canon. In the movie Han already knows who Snoke is without Leia explaining so hopefully it isn't. That was completely unbelievable and out of character. You can't hide something that significant from the man you love and the father of your child, and then let him leave you and drift around the galaxy guilt-ridden and blaming himself for his son going Dark, never knowing the real reason, and then suddenly spring the truth on him after you get reunited after years apart. That makes it seem like Leia is really deceptive and that Han and Leia had a very distant, non communicative marriage. Please, please don't let this part be canon.

 

I will firmly reject that canon, and substitute my own more logical one that is in character.

Between this and Star Trek, I'm really developing a strong dislike of JJ

If Han didn't make the original first move they would have never gotten together. This time she realized it had to be her.

What attracted them to each other, us also what has the greatest potential to come between them. They are both stubborn strong willed people, but as much as I hate old clichéd tropes, they do complete each other.

They are both at their best when the other us around.


Posted by HAL 9000 via Tapatalk

 

Sorry.... that might have slipped,

Wait the han/leia stuff in TFA was because of them not finding a big fanbase and deciding to "heap it on them".


I hope that was sarcasm.

It was done because it was necessary to convey that the galaxy was darker, it wasn't a "happily ever after" and the characters never found the peace they so wanted.

Dramatically that is what they had to do, as well as kill off someone.


(Plus I heard things about Lawrence Kasdan's marriage breakdown, maybe that affected it. )

Real Life is the same as Fiction, or is it the other way round?

 

I don't think it's "necessary" to make things so dark to have a good sequel. In the Harry Potter sequel about his son, Harry and Ginny are still married and so are Ron and Hermione. You can have a dramatic sequel without needing to implode anything good that happened in the original series. TFA would be plenty dark already with no Jedi, Luke in exile, Han and Leia's only child an evil Dark Lord, and the First Order rising, without also adding Han and Leia being separated. In Legends, their son went evil and they didn't break up over it.

As for Kasdan, apparently he always saw Han and Leia as Rhett and Scarlet, so I'm not surprised he broke them up. He only kept them together in ROTJ becaue Lucas made him, so as soon as Lucas was out of the picture he got what he wanted. Other than both Rhett and Han being rogues, I don't really see the similarities - Rhett and Scarlet's relationship is incredibly dysfunctional with Scarlet only wanting what she can't have, and Scarlet being a huge selfish b---- to Rhett the entire duration of their relationship, to the point you can't blame him when he leaves.

 

Darthmaul208

Well, I did say it was a crazy theory. And yes, it was meant as sarcasm.

 

Something I just realized while reading Rey's Story: it seems confirmed that, in nexw canon, Leia never underwent Jedi training. Toward the end of the book, she says to Rey:

Could have.

 

LelalMekha

Yes, it's true, Leia didn't train to be a Jedi.

J.J. Abrams talks about that here,

http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/12/07/star-wars-the-force-awakens-why-leia-didnt-become-a-jedi

He basically says that she is Force strong and that's an intrinsic part of her character but she choose to use her time for the Rebellion and what came afterwards.

Is Rey's story worth getting?

unicorn

You're probably right about what Claudia Gray said. I didn't look it up and was only going by memory. Still, Leia didn't have much dialogue in the movie, and most of what little was there was between her and Han. So maybe I jumped to conclusions.

What I thought might be in the book wasn't necessary dialogue, the first thing that popped in my head was the line about how they fought but she always hated watching him leave. I thought that before we found out Han isn't in Bloodline very much, so with that new information it might fit even better.

For Harrison and Carrie, I thought of the line, "You changed your hair." But who knows, we'll likely figure out what line is in Bloodline but we're probably never know what Harrison said to Carrie.

I think most of the dialogue between Han and Leia concerning Snoke, and sending Ben to Luke for training, etc. was for the benefit of the audience. There's still a lot of backstory that went untold, and holes to fill. I guess they're saving that for the books, etc.

 

Yes, I knew about Abrams' explanation, but I don't really like it. The way we see Leia is "Force-strong" comes off as a disappointment. What does she do, after all, that is so "Force-strong?" She feels some things but doesn't know what they are ; it looks like uncontrolled magic made by underage wizards in Harry Potter. I'm sad that, in this new canon, Leia didn't get the chance to prove she could be as proficient as her brother--because she certainly is. Her untrained potential is a waste of her.

Rey's story is mostly another POV retelling of Episode VII. Among the few notable things: it has the first officially released depiction of old Luke, the first mention of Ahch-To in a printed story.

 

I just wanted to approve of this.

 

I had a feeling I wasn't alone. He keeps assassinating my beloved characters.

Posted by HAL 9000 via Tapatalk

 

Trust me, you are not alone. I don't dispute that JJ is a very good director, but I hate what he did to Han and to him and Leia, so that has greatly affected my opinion of him. And we're not the only ones. I have a friend who is more of a Trekkie then a Warrior and he commented to me a couple of years ago about how unhappy Star Trek fans were over JJ's reboot of their franchise. Now I completely understand why.

 

I was so looking forward to seeing an update of my favorite characters, then getting this was more than a little let down. I won't even watch the new Trek. I've seen enough to know, that I would hate it. GRRRR. character assassin.

 

IamZam At least when JJ Abrams did Star Trek it was AU so fans could ignore it. If only TFA could be AU too. Personally I think he's a good director and writer but there isn't a speck of imagination in him compared to Lucas.

Does Rey's Story have any other dialogue between Rey and Leia? Just wondering if there are any clues as to her parentage. I was disappointed it didn't seem Leia trained at all - now that we see from TFA that you can learn to Force mind trick someone and lightsaber fight with zero training, it seems almost negligent that Leia didn't receive even basic training. What if she got captured by the First Order and died because she never learned to use the Force even in the most basic way?

Ginger, the Han and Leia exposition scene I thought was clumsy and awkward. It was actually a common critique I saw in reviews, that their conversation felt stilted and unnatural. I mean obviously they both knew why they separated and why Ben went Dark, it felt very forced to have them explain why to the audience. We waited over 30 years to see our favourites on screen and 50% of their dialogue is clumsy exposition, sigh.

Question, what will people miss and not miss about the old canon?

Things I am glad am no longer canon:
COPL
Han and Leia waiting 4 years to get married
Han and Leia sending their children away for the first 2 years of their lives (let's hope the canon doesn't make them even worse parents)
Bria Tharen being the reason Han waited 3 years to make a move on Leia (rolls eyes)
Xizor trying to rape Leia
Mara Jade

Things I will miss about the old canon:
Han and Leia in post NJO with a rock solid marriage through thick and thin
Jaina Solo (at least ONE of their kids had a happy future)
Han and Leia working as a team and being inseparable
Leia as a kick ass Jedi
The bond between the original three
Luke actually establishing a Jedi Academy
Han growing and developing into a responsible family man, instead of reverting back to being a smuggler
Han and Leia having some time to themselves before they start a family
Han not being murdered obviously

 

I'm glad it's not canon anymore
COPL
Mopey Luke in some of the early EU
A moon falling on Chewie - in fact VP and the next few-several books that followed
Han becoming a drunkard (see above)
Bria
The Solo kids constantly being kidnapped
Anakin Solo dying
Jacen Solo's captivity and torture
Han and Leia nearly always apart from each other and their kids in early EU
Han and Leia waiting so long to get married

Things I'll miss
Winter
The Han Solo Adventures
Three kids for Han and Leia
Jaina and Jacen before he went dark
Jaina and Jagged Fel as a couple
All the good stuff H/L fans got in the later EU
Han and Leia both still alive and still together as grandparents
Everyone being a close family
Luke training new Jedi
Luke having a family