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CT Han and Leia scene on the Falcon in Empire Strikes Back and modern romantic norms

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Daxon101, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    What exactly would we call Han and Leias relationship in the OT? it certainly isn't about 2 people who grew close. its basically arguing and Han insisting She must have a thing for him. which drives sexual tension and thats basically what they relationship came from. do ladies find Hans arrogance charming?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  2. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Seriously? That's ANH, and the very beginning of ESB. What about the end of ESB and ROTJ?

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    Sometimes. I wonder if SW fans have seen the OT, beyond ANH. And yeah, there's some sketchiness in ESB, especially looking back from 2021. Nothing compared to what Kylo does to Rey, or Reylo in general though. And that was just filmed recently.
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Han and Leia had one questionable scene, the one with their first kiss in ESB, and that one can be given a pass since the movie was made in 1980. I did not find Han’s behavior charming in that scene at all, but it was acceptable in the days of “Gentlemen prefer Hanes” and “come on, you know you want it.” And it still isn’t as bad as what Kylo did.

    Get back to me when Han and Leia’s first scene involved Han throwing Leia into a tree and knocking her out, then strapping her down and telling her he could take whatever he wanted, then telling her that she was “nothing.” Get back to me when there is a Lucas statement made after 2010 that he wanted Leia in a position of “uncomfortable intimacy.”
     
  4. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 7, 2016
    It doesn't exist in ANH because Luke and Leia were a more likely scenario at that time. it only really starts in ESB with Leia being so frustrated with Han and Han being all arrogant. and they kiss purely from arguing sexual tension. if this is romance then you know what? i won't judge anyone for their taste in romance. no matter where it goes. because its clearly not sunshine and rainbows.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    They both really do mature over the OT. They end up in a very adult, healthy, equal relationship/partnership. As mentioned their first kiss is problematic. But that's one scene. And before they grow up.

    Nothing like what the ST tells us is true love.

    Psst. You said the OT. Not just ANH. The relationship changes and grows over 3 movies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    So you think that if Luke and Leia were not originally set up in ANH, that Han would have thrown Leia into a tree, strapped her down, told her he could take whatever he wanted, and told her she was nothing?

    If Han had behaved in ANH the way Kylo does across the ST, I can’t see Leia giving him the time of day—and that is at best. Even in a movie written in the late 70s/early 80s when the writing has more excuses than it does now.

    What Kylo did was far beyond being “arrogant.”
     
  7. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Kylo is Kylo because he isn't charming. He isn't suave. He isn't confident. He isn't ... sexy. He's a mess. He's whimpering. He's a bully. He's chaotic. He's entitled. He's evil. (And that's why Ben Solo doesn't quite work in the end either, because that can't just flash on in an afternoon lol)

    I think people extend Adam Driver's personal characteristics to the psycho he's playing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  8. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 7, 2016
    No he would just tell her how much she wants him. she would call him names and kiss Luke to make him jealous. you know. romance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    “No” means there is no parallel to Rey and Kylo.

    “Telling her how much she wants him” was acceptable in 1980 but not now.

    You cannot make this equivalency because there is none.

    As I said:


    Get back to me when Han and Leia’s first scene involved Han throwing Leia into a tree and knocking her out, then strapping her down and telling her he could take whatever he wanted, then telling her that she was “nothing.” Get back to me when there is a Lucas statement made after 2010 that he wanted Leia in a position of “uncomfortable intimacy.”
     
  10. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    Gawd... Is nothing spared?

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  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    If you think continuing to push a woman after she has said “no,” is not problematic in 2021, that is on you. I’m not going to pretend it isn’t just because you want some things to be “spared” for your own comfort.

    And don’t try the “well he knew she actually wanted it when she said she didn’t” garbage that gets trotted out in defense of the notion that Han’s behavior should be considered acceptable in 2021, because too many people use it as an excuse to ignore consent.
     
  12. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    We get it. Stuff like this is so tiring to you. Must be nice.

    Nothing gets spared. Everything can be talked about. Even what works and is socially acceptable in movies from 40 years ago, and maybe viewed problematically in 2020s. We do the same to pop culture allllll the time. It's perfectly acceptable to change our views on things through new lenses and understanding, and even accepting those old movies while stilling understanding they are problematic. Just like we're gonna have to do with the ST - now and in the future.
     
  13. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 6, 2019
    And honestly, even the OT seemingly realized what he did in ESB was inappropriate, so in ROTJ (after a near-death experience) he's far less cocky and is so respectful of Leia that he's willing to let her go if she didn't want him. So in the end, his toxic elements are smoothed over and their relationship ends on a healthier and sweeter note.

    It's a great message and legitimate character development for Han that nobody ever seems to acknowledge, aside from people saying Han was "worse" or "useless" in ROTJ. Maybe that's part of why something like Rey/Finn would never take off, people just seem to prefer toxicity.
     
  14. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    I've seen many times, for many years, that for the people who have a problem with ROTJ Han, it's because he's been sweetened. He's no longer the pirate. The charmer. The rogue. And that's the Han they want.

    But yeah, it's just as confident of him to be willing to lose Leia, to step aside and let her be with Luke and not get in the way, if that's what makes her happy. That's...mature. It's what you're supposed to do, instead of secretly pining for someone, and hope she changes her mind, or try other manipulative (and insecure) methods because you think that other person belongs to you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  15. Jar Jar Skywalker

    Jar Jar Skywalker Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 18, 2017
    No. Bye.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2021
  16. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
  17. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 6, 2019
    And like, he can still have those elements. Just because he treats the woman he loves with respect doesn't mean he can't still be a swashbuckling badass when he's back on his game, and now has the confidence that the love of his life is in his corner.

    I'm sure the old EU touched on that, and even in the new canon the relationship between Hera and Kanan is one of my favorites in the franchise, and it feels like it would be very reminiscent of a post-ROTJ Han/Leia. I was hoping (if the ST was going for a romance) that Rey/Finn would be like that, or at the very least, Finn being the Steve Trevor to Rey's Wonder Woman.
     
  18. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Right. He's still those things. (well, maybe not the pirate anymore). But he can still be charming while in a relationship. I think they just like ANH base-version. The scoundrel. The single guy with his his best friend. On the road. Not tied down. Over anything else. And that's perhaps even why Han was reset back to his single pirating-smuggling ways in TFA. That's the preferred version to some part of the fandom.
     
  19. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    No, don't try and reframe this as reflective of my general attitude. I'm referring specifically to the scene. BTW Leia never says "No" either does she? That scene is quite clear in what it is communicating to the audience, and it isn't one of Leia trying to reject Han's advances or refuse consent, but one where she has no intention of resisting, hence her rather obviously feeble "My hands are dirty" excuse. She might just as well have said "Oooh Han, stop it will ya, I've not even washed my hair" <eyelash flutter eyelash flutter>

    The scene sets it up quite perfectly. Leia wants Han, he wants her in return. There is no way, absolutely no way is that scene played out in any other way.
     
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  20. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    She says "stop it". That's the same as 'no'. Which is then ignored. And they then both kiss.

    No one here is saying the scene is as problematic as Reylo, or Kylo throwing Rey into a tree, but that scene is ... problematic ... in that many men, do not stop when told to by woman. They think stop means go. They think no means yes, keep trying.

    That's the point. And if you can't understand that, that's on you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  21. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 21, 2019
    Anyone wondering why this stuff matters? Why putting things like Reylo in movies and treating it as anything but abusive is not OK? Read this response right here.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Except that it is. “Stop that” means “stop that.” It does not mean the opposite.

    As a few of us have told you, if you cannot understand that, that’s on you.
     
  23. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 6, 2019
    Bruh, did you see the way she pushed him off of her like "back the f--- up dude" at the start of that scene? She clearly didn't wanna be messed with at that particular moment, even if she did have the hots for Han.
     
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    No. You have been warned about this over and over by multiple mods. If you cannot post about what you think is “popular” without making it about gender, then don’t post. See you in the Unban Request Forum.
     
  25. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    And if you are unable to understand the nuance in that scene, that's on you. What is clearly being communicated to the audience is that Leia is absolutely crazy nuts for Han. No question. The scene is only her saying "Stop that" to Han if you take it literally, and miss the nuance. She isn't trying to resist Han, she is trying to convince herself that she can resist Han, and of course, she can't, nor does she want to.

    Leia knows it. Han knows it. Moviegoers knew it. Well, 99.9% of them anyway.
     
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